Which Rattlesnake kit?

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

IF, you were to have decided you wanted to build the Rattlesnake, which company would you buy it from, Mamoli or Model Shipways?

Edited March 9, 2022 by Dave_E

[VTHokiEE]

Do you mean Mamoli instead of Caldercraft?

[Dave_E]

I guess it was Mamoli... never heard of them.

[Jaager]

You could give any of the Rattlesnake kits a pass.  The S.I. has 3 sheets of plans - $35 total - the plans are about as complete as you are likely to get - outside of a monograph - in which  the details for more than what the plans for this ship provides are likely just speculation by the author of the monograph.   There are plans for a few ships in the NMM which have several sheets instead of one.  These ships are usually class leads and the additional sheets are individual decks.  The sort of details there are more like motel layouts than structural component details. 

Even if you lack power tools, you can easily replicate what a current mass market kit provides for a spine and molds using the S.I plans and a good quality fret saw.  Thicker plywood can used and you can make sure at HD or Lowes or local building supply that the plywood sheets are dead flat.  With a bit of simple lofting - the number of molds can be doubled or more and a single layer of planking used.  A good quality wood species be used to do it.

[Viggen]

I have built neither, so I cant really give you any solid advice on which one to get. But at least I can sort out the Mamoli business 🙂

 

Mamoli is, or actually was, an Italian kit manufacturer that was around for a long time. If memory serves me, a fire destroyed most of their factory about 10 years ago or so. I believe they were family owned, and they decided not to rebuild the business.

 

However, the up-and-coming (sort of) company, Dusek ship kits, secured the rights to the Mamoli designs, and have since then reintroduced most of the Mamoli range. As I understand it, Dusek has made improvements to most kits, in terms of laser cutting, easing construction. Maybe they also uppgraded fittings and castings, I am less sure about that. 

 

Dusek kept the Mamoli brand for their Mamoli kits, at least here in Europe. So two things to keep in mind when searching for the Mamoli Rattlesnake is 1) check both Dusek and Mamoli tabs on webshops it you at first can't find it, and 2) When you find one, ask if it is an "original" Mamoli or an "upgraded" Dusek, if it matters to you how much laser cutting is involved. (if the box looks like this, you can be sure its upgraded) 

 

I have built some other Mamoli kits years ago, my favourite being the Yacht Mary. I simply "click" with Mamoli kits, everything feels right, even if they never were state of the art. 

 

Should you like to follow other peoples bulilds and logs, I think there are far more on the MS Rattlesnake than the Mamoli one. Studying pictures alone (which I have done many times thinking about getting one myself), I dont see any clear advantage of the MS one, out of what is in the box. But I know nothing of the accuracy hull lines and such. I am sure others on this forum does 🙂

[GrandpaPhil]

I would personally choose the Model Shipways kit if I were going to build the Rattlesnake from a kit.  They will replace any part that is defective or otherwise breaks for free, no questions asked.
 

Although, I would choose the SI plans for accuracy.

[Gregory]

7 hours ago, Jaager said:

.....the plans are about as complete as you are likely to get - outside of a monograph -

Actually, there are several sheets of high resolution, detailed  plans at WikiCommons that also reside at the NMM.

 

Cormorant ex Rattlesnake

 

 

ModelExpo also sells their plans which are derived from the NMM plans, and would be useful for making a POB model.

 

There are mast and yard dimensions included.   

 

The major shortcoming of either kit would be fittings and details..   

Edited March 9, 2022 by Gregory

[hoocat]

I built the Model Shipways kit several years ago. It was my first POB model. I had no issues. They replaced a couple of broken parts free of charge. I did upgrade some of the fittings but I would do that with most any kit. IMHO the plans as drawn are a work of art. 

My two cents. 

[David Lester]

Hi Dave,

I would definitely buy the Model Shipways version. I built the Mamoli several years ago and it was fine. I didn't really have any issues with it, but I didn't like the metal "frames" for the gun ports and if I had it to do over again, I would have reduced the size of all the blocks. They look much too large on the finished model when used according to the plans.

 

I  have built many MS kits and I think they're really great and I think their plans are excellent. While I haven't build their Rattlesnake, I have had a peek at its plans. One order I received from MS was packed not with newsprint, but oddly, with crumpled up Rattlesnake plans. I took a good look at them and they appeared to be in line with the usual standard.

 

 

Here's my Mamoli one -

 

I have always had a special feeling towards the Rattlesnake, because it's really the reason for my interest in model ships. When I was a kid in the late 50's and early 60's my friend's dad built models ships and I was mesmerized by them and I wanted to build them too. He had many of them, but the only one I really remembered well was the Rattlesnake, because of its name. My friend still has his dad's old Rattlesnake model. Here's a picture of it -

 

 

I don't know if this is a kit or from scratch. I can tell it's not either the MS kit nor the Mamoli kit, but it's definitely the Rattlesnake. It's about 60 years old now.

 

The MS and Mamoli versions look very much alike when finished, and I think you'll have a good experience with either one, but my vote would go for the MS version.

 

David

[Gregory]

The Mamoli kit was my first wood kit over 25 years ago.  No internet, so I relied on what I gleaned from Seaways Ships in Scale and several books I acquired.  I found it to be a great learning experience.  I just wasn't aware of the shortcomings of the kit because I didn't have anything to compare it to.

 

 

 

Here it is, mostly finished.  I gave the finished model to a relative, and have since recovered it in very bad shape.

 

If I get around to doing a scratch POB model, this would be high on my list..  I think the ornamentation would be an interesting CNC wood carving project.

[Dave_E]

Thank you all very much. Another interesting point (for me anyway) has been the history of the ship itself. I love all the period sailing ships (and tv shows and movies), and found that the early United States had part in their ongoing development and purpose on the ocean. After doing a lot of research on the colonial period ships (didn’t know there were so many actually), I decided to look and see how many kits there were available for United States Ships. Note… I’m not a scratch builder and know I’ll never be one, so the next best task is to find the best kits for representation of ship accuracy and then If I want to substitute or upgrade (bashing I think is what you call it) I certainly have the option. Thought I was building models and now I’m enjoying research on Naval history. 😀

Edited March 9, 2022 by Dave_E

[Gregory]

I am inclined to vote for the MS kit..  It will have the best plans and fittings in general.

 

Try to catch it on sale when ModelExpo is having a ' free shipping ' add on..   Subscribe to their news letter.

 

I don't know if you are aware of ModelExpo's policy of replacing any parts for any reason.  it's a great reason to do business with them.

[Bill Morrison]

I have to go with the old solid hull model by MS. The photos above are of that kit if built in the '60s.  I once built it and now I have another.  It can easily be found online.

 

Of the two plank-on-bulkhead kits, either is fine. If you are familiar with Mamoli, go with that.

 

Bill

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Dave_E said:

If I want to substitute or upgrade (bashing I think is what you call it)

Bashing does seem to be a common term used here when a kit is improved, upgraded, partially scratch built,etc. 

I first saw the term kit bashing in a plastic model magazine.  There it described the combination of two or more kits of wildly different subjects. A plastic brig with DC3 wings and 1960's 5" destroyer gun  and tank tracks sort of thing.  Based on what what kit bashing originally described, using it to describe what is done here on a kit is being a bit hyperbolic.  Especially if the goal is a model that is an exact opposite of an anachronism.

[Gregory]

 I have never seen a topic here where someone talked about " bashing " and had to explain what they meant.

I could have missed it, though.

Terms and languages, evolve. 

 

I always take " bashing " to mean adding  something   or improving (subjective ) on something that was not included in the kit.

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Gregory

[Roger Pellett]

A couple of random thoughts:

 

David, 

“Back in the day,” Model Shipways kits were packaged in distinctive bright yellow boxes.  These Yellow Box kits all featured precarved solid pine hulls.  If your friend’s father’s model is 60 years old it is probably one of these MS yellow box kits.

 

Dave E.

Another option would be to scratch build a Rattlesnake model using Harold Hahn’s method.  Readers of my posts will suspect that I get a commission for selling Hahn Plans.🤣. I don’t!  I simply believe that this is the method guaranteeing neophyte model builders and more experienced builders like myself  the best possibility for success.  In Rattlesnake’s case, Hahn modeled her back in the 1980’s and published an article, and plans in the Nautical Research Journal.  Back articles emailed to you are only $2.50.  If this looks like a good option, you can buy the full sized set.  

 

Roger

Edited March 9, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[Bill Morrison]

Please note that MS packaged the kits in White boxes "back in the day" but shifted to yellow in the 1960s.

 

[Gregory]

@Dave_E

If you have decided to go with MS, I'm sure you have searched up some of the logs.

 

I hope you found this one:

 

It' stalled for now, but there is a lot of progress and some great examples of technique..

[Jaager]

15 hours ago, DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:

Dusek (Mamoli) Rattlesnake over Model Shipyard because hardwood planking trumps the appearance of crappy basswood

An advantage of a machine carved hull is that it can be easily planked using a thin veneer of a scale appropriate species. 

The thin veneer can be spilled using a sharp knife, a steel straight edge, and a sanding block.

It looks to me as though the original Mamoli sold kits for Bounty, Endeavour, and Beagle that used the same lines for all 3, so a careful check of the hull shape using the S.I. plans would prudent.  It is also possible that the planking material provided is all various species of some open pore African Mahogany relative 

As far as a look,  I doubt that even an impecunious merchant owner would send a vessel with raw wood to sea.  Lamp black in a paint carrier would be less expensive than frequently replacing planks.

[Gregory]

3 minutes ago, Jaager said:

...a careful check of the hull shape using the S.I. plans would prudent. 

The SI plans ( which I haven't seen )  must have been derived from the NMM plans which are available at the link I provided above.

The MS plans and the Mamoli plans which I have, match the NMM plans very closely as far as the general arrangement is concerned.

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

Thought I’d let you know which direction I went. I purchased the Model Shipways Rattlesnake. I didn’t immediately open it up for a detailed inspection and when I did… I was sort of disappointed. The hype that I thought I was reading concerning Model Shipways didn’t materialize as I dug into the box. 😳 The cast parts are terrible. Instruction book is a bazillion times better than the LN I’m building now, however not what I was expecting. For example the cannon page, just says “make the cannons” (paraphrasing).

 

So… I’m really glad I’m building the NL first with virtually no instructions. I do plan to “bash”, modify and substitute parts etc. extensively on the Snake. 

[ccoyle]

2 hours ago, Dave_E said:

For example the cannon page, just says “make the cannons” (paraphrasing).

 

This is par for the course for MS kits - most of them assume some prior experience on the part of the builder. In addition, MS kits typically require some components to be scratch-built from supplied stock, using dimensions taken directly from the plans; those same components are often supplied in the form of pre-made parts by other kit manufacturers.

[Gregory]

This may be a bit premature considering I'm sort of stalled on my Resolution, which is about 95% done, but I'm hoping to soon start a scratch build of Rattlesnake with the MS plans.

 

It's going to be an upscale at 1:48.  I think it will be a nice project to jump into a little CNC carving.

 

The NMM plans, that I linked to above, have a lot to add  to the possible detail of the carvings, and there are some 1:48 add-ons that I am thinking about, like the Winchelsea Capstan and the MS 26ft longboat.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Gregory