dead eye twist

[Peanut6]

When tightening up line between my dead eyes the top dead eye attached to the shroud wants to twist.  What I mean is they are not parallel with the lower dead eyes attached to plates at the hull.  I put a "reverse twist" in my shroud in hope to prevent it from happening.  It seemed to work but over night the dead eyes twisted again.  I can rotate them back parallel but in a while they are twisted again.  Why is this happening and how can I prevent it?  

[BenD]

Deadeyes twisting is something that happens on real ships, cordage under strain tends to twist. As far as I know, the fix for this is called a sheer pole. In the picture below is the Niagara. You'll see the metal bar above the deadeyes. Most examples you will find on the internet have a metal rod that sits a little lower not this square bar. I've seen some ships where the bar was up too high and the deadeyes ended up misaligned anyway...

[Peanut6]

BenD, thank you so much for the information.  I thought that I was doing something wrong.  I would now think it's safe to say that since my mast is still straight, I've got just the right tension on my rigging for this to happen.  Since this is a natural event and it's regarding my little Jolly Boat, I can live with it no problem (only have two dead eyes per side).  I can't tell you how much of a relief this info is, thanks again. 

[Dr PR]

I have read that sheer poles were introduced in the mid 1800s, so if your vessel dates back before about 1830 it wouldn't have had sheer poles.

 

I seem to recall that I was able to adjust the individual strands of the lanyards that tie the deadeyes together to create a counter twist. Pulling one side (inboard or outboard)  tighter creates a torque to twist the upper deadeye and shroud. This takes a lot of fiddling but I have two models where the deadeyes have remained aligned correctly for decades. After you get the deadeyes aligned and they have stayed that was for a few days you can paint the deadeyes and lanyards with varnish or clear paint (flat or satin) to hold things in place.

 

 

[allanyed]

I may just be lucky but rarely have had this problem.  Once the shroud is secured to the upper deadeye I hold the shroud between my thumb and forefinger at the top then run them down the shroud to get any twist out of it before running the lanyard through the deadeyes.   Sometimes it takes a couple tries but it works.

Allan

[druxey]

Further to Phil's  (Dr.PR) post: The direction the laniard is reeved through the deadeyes can either increase or reduce the tendency to twist. This is important if you are modeling a ship in the pre-sheerpole era! 

[Peanut6]

Thank you Phil, Allan and Druxey for the additional information.  Everything mentioned will be entered into my "Remember this/don't forget" separate reference log I've started awhile back.  My biggest issue/drawback is that the line supplied is pretty unforgiving to numerous reroutes.  I've already abandoned my  preferred plans on the rigging due to the strength/durability of the inferior line.  The shipyard coffers are empty with no deposits for the foreseeable future so purchasing replacement line is out of the question.  My current plan is to use the line I've got just to complete the build but won't use any adhesive on the questionable line, to "set" it in place, so that at a later date I can rerig those areas with better quality line.  Thanks again for all the comments, it is greatly appreciated and adds a few paragraphs to my reference log.

[rwiederrich]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:24 AM, druxey said:

Further to Phil's  (Dr.PR) post: The direction the laniard is reeved through the deadeyes can either increase or reduce the tendency to twist. This is important if you are modeling a ship in the pre-sheerpole era! 

This is so true...One must also take into consideration the type of line you are using...cotton or nylon, coupled with the direction you are reeving the lanyards in the deadeyes.  I've been able to control twisting by these simple tricks.

 

Rob

[Dsmith20639]

What reeving direction causes what type of twist? Can anybody explain this in more detail. The comments sound reasonable but without further clarification I am at a lose on when to do what without doing some experimentation on my own.  I was under the assumption that there was only one correct way to reeve a lanyard's deadeyes.

[rwiederrich]

On 6/8/2022 at 12:34 PM, Dsmith20639 said:

What reeving direction causes what type of twist? Can anybody explain this in more detail. The comments sound reasonable but without further clarification I am at a lose on when to do what without doing some experimentation on my own.  I was under the assumption that there was only one correct way to reeve a lanyard's deadeyes.

There is, but if you reeve from the knot in the right hole or from the left hole….you can induce a twist that is either counter or equal to the twist of the rope/string.  
 

Rob

[popeye2sea]

It is not just the starting point, or the reeving direction that is important.

 

When using cable laid (left hand lay) rope the upper deadeye is turned in by passing the end under the deadeye from right to left as one looks at it from outboard. Then the end crosses behind the standing part and comes up on the right side of it.  With right hand laid rope the end goes from left to right under the deadeye and comes up on the left side of the standing part.

The end result is that with cable laid rope the ends lie forward on the starboard side and aft on the port. With right hand laid rope the opposite is the case.

 

The laniard always starts from the hole furthest from the end of the shroud.

 

Regards,

[dvm27]

3 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

 

The end result is that with cable laid rope the ends lie forward on the starboard side and aft on the port. 

 

 

Can you site a source for this statement? Lee's makes no mention of this and photos of contemporary models I am looking at show the end of the rope on the aft side port and starboard.

[allanyed]

Below is text and a picture from David Lees' Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, page 42.

 

"A deadeye was turned in the end, left handed if shroud laid rope was used, right handed if cable laid."   

 

I think this would have the ends finishing up aft on the port side and forward on the starboard side for cable laid rope as Henry mentions. 

 

This view is from inboard.

[Peanut6]

Wow, this got complicated in a hurry.  I'm curious how the terms "cable laid' and "shroud laid" came about, why there are both types and if there are ideal/specific occasions where one is used rather than the other.  At first glance at Allan's picture you would say they are mirror images, but there is one difference that I see.  In the cable laid view the last run of the reeving passes over the previous runs but on the shroud laid view the last run of the reeving passes under the previous run, why is that?

 

I realize we are way deep into the weeds on this but I think it proves how intelligent are ancestors truly were.  First off, just coming up with this system to begin with.  Obviously they faced the same issue I did, but to analyze the situation and find a solution(s) is sheer genius.  I'm sure there is a practical/functional reason to keep the deadeyes aligned rather than aesthetics.  I've learned enough to know that every feature on a ship has a specific purpose and how it was made was developed over years for solid reasons.         

[allanyed]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:20 AM, Peanut6 said:

I've learned enough to know that every feature on a ship has a specific purpose and how it was made was developed over years for solid reasons.         

You are absolutely correct.  This is the reason to check everything before putting it permanently in place, whether scratch built or kit supplied.  There are thousands of contemporary plans and models to check against that are available for free on line at RMG, Wiki Commons etc. so why not use them?   There is a myriad of books available based on contemporary information for those that wish to expand their library as well.  

 

Allan

Edited June 21, 2022 by allanyed

[popeye2sea]

21 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

It is not just the starting point, or the reeving direction that is important.

 

When using cable laid (left hand lay) rope the upper deadeye is turned in by passing the end under the deadeye from right to left as one looks at it from outboard. Then the end crosses behind the standing part and comes up on the right side of it.  With right hand laid rope the end goes from left to right under the deadeye and comes up on the left side of the standing part.

The end result is that with cable laid rope the ends lie forward on the starboard side and aft on the port. With right hand laid rope the opposite is the case.

 

The laniard always starts from the hole furthest from the end of the shroud.

 

Regards,

 

18 hours ago, dvm27 said:

Can you site a source for this statement? Lee's makes no mention of this and photos of contemporary models I am looking at show the end of the rope on the aft side port and starboard.

 

RC Anderson, The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast 1600-1720: page 94 - 95

[popeye2sea]

It has been my understanding that another name for right hand laid rope is hawser laid. Three hawser laid ropes twisted up left handed into cable laid rope. So named for it's usual usage for anchor cable.

Shroud laid rope is four strand or three strand around a central heart. So named for its common use as shrouds.

 

Regards,

[DaveBaxt]

What a great question and some great in depth answers not to metion the timing. I am almost ready to start the rigging of the Endeavour and hopefully there is enough help here to get me through the twisting of shrouds and deadeyes. I think I had this problem on my last build and thought I overcome this problem with applying pva glue which is probably not ideal. Thankyou for raising this question and to everyone who have participated in this subject.

[dvm27]

Great and timely discussion for me as well! What I found confusing is that the illustration in Lees for cable laid is "inboard" but it isn't labeled "port, inboard". So this is how I'm rigging Speedwell with the above advice and Druxey's valuable assistance

 

Shrouds turned under deadeyes from right to left then, of course crossed over left to right above the deadeye. Thus, as mentioned above, the starboard shroud end is fore of the shroud and the port shroud end is aft of the shroud.

 

Don't forget the lanyard changes as well. On the port side the end knot is most fore deadeye hole and on the starboard it starts of the most aft deadeye hole (in other words opposite the shroud ends). I almost forgot that one.

 

Have I got it right? I have been looking at lots of contemporary models and  have seen every variation of the above so maybe they weren't as obsessed with these minute details as we are!

[rwiederrich]

On 6/20/2022 at 10:27 AM, dvm27 said:

Great and timely discussion for me as well! What I found confusing is that the illustration in Lees for cable laid is "inboard" but it isn't labeled "port, inboard". So this is how I'm rigging Speedwell with the above advice and Druxey's valuable assistance

 

Shrouds turned under deadeyes from right to left then, of course crossed over left to right above the deadeye. Thus, as mentioned above, the starboard shroud end is fore of the shroud and the port shroud end is aft of the shroud.

 

Don't forget the lanyard changes as well. On the port side the end knot is most fore deadeye hole and on the starboard it starts of the most aft deadeye hole (in other words opposite the shroud ends). I almost forgot that one.

 

Have I got it right? I have been looking at lots of contemporary models and  have seen every variation of the above so maybe they weren't as obsessed with these minute details as we are!

AND don't forget to use dark thread...or black for the lanyards.  They are just as much part of the standing rigging as is the shroud above.

 

Rob