HMS Greyhound by Srenner - Corel - 1:100

[Srenner]

I know this kit is a bit rubbish but I'm dead keen on building a stable of HMS Royal Navy ships and starting with a sixth rate ship of the line and building upwards.. also it only has 20 cannons and doing all the details of the cannons x20 seems boring to me

 

Goals for this kit are:

 

Knowing that some of the bulkheads are wrong I am going to utilize navisworks and either do some 2d or 3d modelling and see if I can create my own bulkhead patterns that fix the problems and recut them... im thinking about laser cutting .. will have to see how the budget goes. 

 

Filler blocks under the first planking to provide that stability to the first planking and give a solid base.

 

Small metal 90 degree angles to keep the bulkheads straight to the keel

 

Less glue and more pre shaping with minimal glue to stop staining and minimal filler... famous last words.. Mark of a good craftsman?!?!

 

Rigging the boat with sails furled to see the running rigging as well as the other rigging.

 

It's a pretty little ship and I think I can do her justice.. will take 6-9 months I think.

 

The 1:100 scale will make the rigging quite small though for my sausage fingers. Anyway looking forward to it.

[Srenner]

So, reading the 3d modelling paper by member kiyoo Liwaza I think it will be possible to create a 2d diagram in Adobe illustrator of each frame plus the appropriate keel position. 

 

Export that file back to shade 3d then correct the curves in and around the bulkheads identified by member hamilton and others from this kit... from memory it's bulkhead 12 and sort out a good 3d surface across the hull shape... then export that back to Adobe illustrator and either print it off and manually cut out new bulkheads or potentially export to a laser cutter and cut revised bulkheads.  I could potentially cut more bulkheads than required to improve plank gluing etc.

 

The cost benefit of doing it this way is ridiculous.  It will cost me more than I spent on the whole kit! For the software x 2  and laser cutter.

 

However I will learn the skills in 2d and 3d modelling, maybe I can start scratch build other ships. The methods of ship building is roughly the same weither it be a kit or scratch built.

 

The question is for plywood, laser cutting and access to good quality strip wood from around the world is it going to be a good cost effective option for ship building over the rest of my lifetime? In theory it is possible to draw any hull shape from the royal navy and create custom frames that can then be planked.... isn't it?

[allanyed]

On 12/7/2022 at 3:24 AM, Srenner said:

sixth rate ship of the line

Your comment brought up an interesting point.   What was the smallest ship in the RN considered a ship of the line.  I thought a ship of the line was a fourth rate or larger but could be dead wrong on this.   Not the most important piece of info in the world, just curious.

Thanks

Allan  

[Srenner]

Hi Allan,

 

Thank you for correcting me... after reading on the internet yes its a sixth rate ship, a "post ship" and not of the line of battle being too small.  

 

That's interesting because it's still got plenty of sail area but at that time its all about the number of cannons that can be fired.

 

Thank you I learned something this morning.

 

Cheers

[Srenner]

So first thing I notice is the keel is bent and also not cut out 100% accurately to the outline but looks like the "length" view on the plan lines up quite closely to the cut out.my concern is when we go to illustrator and dimensions down to 1000ths of a millimeter I can see say 1mm differences so at scale that is a difference of 0.1m to true length. 

 

I need to ask about how to fix the bend... do I press it down with a weight for a few weeks? Will that fix it or will it just bounce back? Do I steam it first then weight it down?

Edited December 10, 2022 by Srenner

[OllieS]

I think maybe you have misunderstood that this kit hobby is just approximate,  really don't worry too much. Try to flatten the keel: a little weight overnight. Then build anyway. It is a small deviation that you can easily correct later particularly with two plankings. I had a much worse distortion in another OcCre kit which I noticed when I placed the deck. And I simply forgot, I put it on a things to sort out list.

Really you wouldn't notice it in the finished model.

The level of precision you think is required does exist and you may get there, but most don't and they live happily anyway

[Old Collingwood]

Interesting build  -   a   few of us  have also  built this  kit,    it does  indeed   have its  challenges,   but with  some work  it can  build  into  an  interesting  Frigate.

 

OC.

[allanyed]

Hi Srenner

 

On 12/7/2022 at 3:24 AM, Srenner said:

I know this kit is a bit rubbish

If you find that this kit does not suit you there are high quality kits from which to choose.

 

If you think 20 guns are boring, what happens when you get to a first rate?😀   Consider studying some of the thousands of photos of contemporary models at the RMG collections site and you will see they do not always include the cannon,  and when they do, they are often rigged with only the breach line or nothing at all.   One of many examples of a sixth rate can be found at:

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66518

 

Good luck with your endeavors, it should be fun and rewarding.

Allan

[harlequin]

like Old Collinwood said earlier....a few of us have completed this kit and you can end up with a good looking model.......keep at it and good luck

 

[hamilton]

Hello Srenner

 

This can be a frustrating kit - especially for a beginner, since the instructions are very sketchy and the plans inaccurate. This was my 12th model build and I was happy to go into it with some experience under my belt. Now for some practical advice.

 

The keel can be straightened in construction. Make a building board and run two long strips of wood as keel fasteners - if these strips are straight you can just wedge the keel part in there to keep it straight during construction. When you fit the bulkheads you can add some small support braces between them to make sure they are aligned perpendicular to the keel - once the bulkheads are squared, braced and glued to the keel, the keel will maintain its straightness through the interaction of all these parts.

 

You will undoubtedly encounter a lot of frustrations with this kit - I don't think any modeller on this forum who has built this has not encountered frustrations and challenges, regardless of their level of modelling experience. I would strap yourself in for some serious head scratching in the future - but between Collingwood, Harlequin, myself and others who have built this kit, hopefully we can provide some remote assistance!! She does build into quite a nice looking ship if you can get through the framework portion of the build! Once that's done, it's more or less "smooth sailing" (insert eye roll here....)

hamilton

[harlequin]

a few of us greyhound veterans will be following you with a good deal of nostalgia srenner....you will find this kit frustrating and we all know the temptation to give up on her but keep with it.....when finished it is a nice little ship and as we greyhound builders look back with affection and suddenly all the frustration and angst was worth it. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by harlequin

[Srenner]

Its nearing Christmas and also im getting pressure from the wife not to start this model until the new year know how fanatical I get about the details... bit I can't help myself thinking about the known hull shape problems with the supplied bulkheads.

 

I have done some preliminary measurements and definitely bulkheads 9 and 10 are out substantially verses the others.

 

My plan is to purchase Adobe illustrator for a month in January for 50 nzd and then measure off the supplied bulkheads etc and draw a wire frame over three or four points on each side of the bulkhead. You can create several different views. 

 

The view of the full length of the keel as shown on the photo. I am not going to be altering the majority of the keel or the bulkheads..  only in and around 9 and 10. 

 

A view of the rear of the ship from the broadest bulkhead to the end.

 

A view of the bow of the ship from the broadest bulkhead to the bow.

 

A view of the top of the ship looking down.

 

Then gulp purchasing some shade 3d time. Unless someone has it and can smooth my illustrator file for me. One month is in the region of 350 usd so it is not cheap. Or it's 850 usd for first year 250 usd afterwards.

 

Smooth out the hulk shape in shade 3d and then send that back to illustrator as a series of sections of the inside of the planking on the hull shape. I should be able to then draw some new bulkheads in and around 9 and 10 to fit the revised hull shape. Cut them and that will fix the 9 and 10 problem.

 

So potentially it's a little bit of scratch building around 9 and 10 and using the rest of the supplied bulkheads and keel.

 

The advantage is I will learn how to translate scanned or measured ships lines into illustrator files that can be sent to 3d rendering models via dxf file format and to smooth out the 3d shape to a pleasant smooth contour. Then translate that back to line vector. 

 

Of course I'm spending too much money on this model but feel like the skills learned will translate into scratch building expertise and it will be intellectually stimulating 

[OllieS]

Just an opinion..

A software project is its own abition or hobby.

Use your eyes and hands to just build it.

And build better with the next one.

...And try not to buy too many other kits in the meantime

[Srenner]

I know... I can use my hands and also pen and paper to achieve a result plus minus maybe 0.5 to 1mm

 

Maybe I can just start with illustrator and see how that goes

 

 

[OllieS]

7 minutes ago, Srenner said:

I know... I can use my hands and also pen and paper to achieve a result plus minus maybe 0.5 to 1mm

 

Maybe I can just start with illustrator and see how that goes

 

 

It's your hobby, whatever you want it to be.

However a sanding block is good for .1mm or less.

I'll leave you to it

[hamilton]

Aha!! My Greyhound had this exact same issue at this exact same location.

 

I did not have the tools and Corel does not supply the resources to make new bullkheads here, so I heavily veneered the outboard edges of these bulkheads during the fairing process to create decent hull lines - this is a MUCH cheaper and equally effective solution to the ones you propose above, and to keep your wife happy, I would strongly recommend it - happy wife, happy life!

 

The following is the post from my build log where I identify this same problem:

 

And here is the solution I came up with - using .6mm strips leftover from a previous build.

 

 

Hope these help - since I built Greyhound as HMS Blandford you can search for the log using that as a search term. I tried to make it quite detailed and it might be helpful as a reference.

hamilton

[Draque]

Hi Srenner,

 

Before you spend money on software, maybe have a look at Inkscape as an alternative to Illustrator and Blender as an alternative to Shade 3D. They're both free and open source and should run on whatever operating system you have. I'm a weirdo who uses Linux for everything and they work perfectly well for me, but there are Windows and Mac versions of both.

 

I don't know anything about Shade 3D, but I use Blender a lot for my work. There's a steep learning curve but it's very powerful and I'd be surprised if there's not a way to solve your problem with it. At least, it seems worth a look before spending hundreds of dollars for a temporary license on something else.

 

Michael

[Srenner]

Thanks Michael will do... you can scan into Inkscape? And export dxf file format?

[Srenner]

Thanks hamilton - have already read all the Greyhound build logs!! Will be copying shamelessly from you.

[Draque]

I think it can scan, but I've never tried. It can certainly import an image created by other scanning software.

 

It can export to dxf.

 

Don't be put off by the "open source" thing. These are professional grade applications, comparable to their (very expensive) proprietary competitors.

 

 

[Srenner]

Progress without actual building on the Greyhound continues. Have downloaded Inkscape and blender 3d into a gaming computer I have for some graphics grunt. Created 4 scan files of jpeg format from the kit plans and will import them into Inkscape and trace them into different layers ready to bring them overnight to blender. 

 

I also bought the book recommended by hamilton and others for the belaying plan for a 20 gun ship of 1720. What I don't understand is there seems to be an order you rig in... is that because multiple ropes go to multiple belaying points or because other rigging runs of things already there? 

 

Is the order shrouds first then yard ropes and then sail ropes? Forgive my lack of nautical terms there... just starting to learn the proper names for things.

 

Really looking forward to working in the computer files later today so will take some screen shots of that action as I go along.

 

 

[Bob Fraser]

8 hours ago, Srenner said:

I also bought the book recommended by hamilton and others for the belaying plan for a 20 gun ship of 1720. What I don't understand is there seems to be an order you rig in... is that because multiple ropes go to multiple belaying points or because other rigging runs of things already there? 

 

That's a good buy! The order is inside to outside and I believe standing to running rigging so that you're not trying to fit things like stays after shrouds or have other other ropes in the way. Stilltrying to learn this stuff myself.

There are other rigging books but a free one on google books is Biddlecombe, The Art of Rigging 1848 gives an idea of the naval practices.

Another book is Marquardt that deals only with 18th century rigging but is now, to me anyway,  hugeley expensive, cheapest i found is Fleabay at £75

I have both Lees and Marquardt bought cheaply years ago before they became "much wanted" and shot up in price.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Bob Fraser

[hamilton]

Lees was a great help in the rigging, but I found I had to produce an entirely unique set of rigging tables for this build based on his documentation of period practice - not only for accuracy, but just for planning out the build! This led further to having to re-do the numbering and labelling of all kit parts - this was an arduous and time-consuming effort, but it definitely paid off in the levels of sanity I was able to maintain through this build. 

hamilton

[Srenner]

I am thinking the same thing as was thinking about doing the running rigging but with sails furled so you can see the rigging better or maybe just the topsais up and the mains furled

[Gregory]

Rigging Period Ship Models by Lennarth Petersson might be a good reference for this model..

[Srenner]

Merry Christmas to everyone and it's hot here in Auckland but I have two days to do some decent computer stuff. 

 

So I copied the plans in 600 dpi and imported them into the base layer of a Inkscape drawing. The download was quick and the package works well on my gaming computer which is amd with an graphics card and 16 megs of ram

 

Then the playing around started... I tried to trace it as a bit map but that created literally hundreds of nodes which were a pain to edit.. what I did in the end was go into using a pen and tracing the line using a bezier curve and then dragging the node points until they were on top of the lines from the plan. I have created layers for the spine, each bulkhead and the deck.

 The files I have attached show the different layers and one with them all ontop of each other. I have also added guide lines to help me align the layers in blender...

 

Tomorrow I will import this file into blender and see of I can align each layer into orthogonal layout...and then lay a mesh over the top and see what happens.

 

I spent a bit of time rotating the scan file from the copier... it was out by a few degrees but you can do some quite fine rotations by layer using the transform function. 

 

I know from the measurement tool there is differences of up to 0.5 millimeter between the bulk heads and a theoretical bearding line but bulk heads 9 and 10 are out by 4mm.

[Srenner]

It hasn't been so hard so far with blender and getting the different bulkheads in position... you just need to get used to using the rotation tools and setting up the orthogonal views. I think it maybe back to front but that won't matter for what I am going to use it for. The next part is getting the mesh onto the outside of the curves.. anyone have helpful tip here?

[mtaylor]

Hi Srenner,

I have one suggestion.... instead of the metal elbows for the keel/bulkhead joints, I'd recommend getting some lengths of square basswood.  Maybe 1" square.  Use these glued to the false keel and bulkheads. Id' use two pieces between two bulkheads (high and low.   When clamped and glued into position, they not only square things up but also help to remove the warp out of keel.

[Old Collingwood]

If  I  was  building this  kit  again  using  the  understanding  of the  frame   problems,  I think  my  work  around  would  start  before  I even  attached  the frames  to  the  centre  frame,   I would  probably  cut out  the farmes  then  place them together  in sequence  but  with the  top  inner  cut  out  square and level  with each  one,   then  I  could  compare  the  lower  tapper  where they  meet the  keel,  and also  compare the  frame profiles  against  each  and  add  some  wood   to the frames   where  needed.

As   long as  all the frames  on a  straight  run  are  level  on the  keel  line,   and  also  the  correct  faring  or angle  against each other  -  then that is  a  start.

 

OC.

[Srenner]

So into blender I went with my frames. There is a nice video done by krutis under the computer threads and my thread on what is easier on how I created a mesh over the top of the frame.

 

Essentially you convert each frame into a curve and then duplicate a plan on each curve. I made my plans 1mm high so that increased the smoothing. Then you join the end loops together. Creating the mesh you see on the attached. You can edit individual vertices and edges to do further smoothing. I fixed up the mesh around bulkhead 9 and 10.