Pin Vise vs. Hand Vise?

[Balclutha75]

Greetings experts,

 

I have one of these basic pin vises, that I have been using on a first little carving project:

 

It has two issues:

 

1) I can't always tighten it completely, so the bit slides. (I don't necessarily fault the tool, my hands are getting extremely weak with age. I have trouble flipping open a beer can, for example. 😝) 

 

2) It only accepts shafts up to 2.5mm, so it does not accommodate a 3.1 mm dremel bit.

 

Looking on the Otto Frei website, it split vises into "Pin" and "Hand" categories.

 

For example:

https://www.ottofrei.com/products/square-chuck-pin-vise-with-2-collets

vs.

https://www.ottofrei.com/products/whaley-hand-vise

 

I see the hole going through the latter, which I don't necessarily see a need for at this point, but opinions on which I should perhaps order are welcome. Or something else? Planning to get some Vallorbe files, so I could add one to the order.

 

Thanks!

 

[Ryland Craze]

This was the first pin vise that I purchased 25 years ago and I still use it: https://www.ottofrei.com/products/swivel-head-pin-vise

 

I also have this set that I also use: https://www.ottofrei.com/products/pin-vise-set-of-4-range-0-0mm-to-4-8mm

I mainly use the smaller ones that hold my #61 to #80 mini drill bits.

 

[Balclutha75]

Thanks Ryland. The first one you linked looks perfect, somehow I had missed it on their site.

[Jaager]

It looks like the General pin vise that I bought when I started all this -  the early "70's.  It was/is better quality than the now stuff, the collets = two units - different bore at each end - there is a storage cavity at the swivel end. 

Still my go to- mostly. 

I have never been introduced to the Starrett version.  A four unit set would probably be worth it if the buyer was young.

[Balclutha75]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

A four unit set would probably be worth it if the buyer was young.

True enough. I looked at the four set and decided I didn't need it at this stage. I'm going to order the one Ryland posted, I think that will be ideal. Thanks.

[Bob Cleek]

My go-to pin vise is a very common one:

 

 

This is the Otto Frei pin vise linked above. The neat thing about this pin vise, which it took me years to discover, is that if you unscrew the collet nut, the collet can be pulled out and end-for-ended where there's another sized collect at the other end. If you unscrew the barrel of the vise, there's yet anothr double-ended collect in the handle tube. The OP may want to check his pin vise that only holds larger bits. I'd bet it has a similar arrangement. There should be a zero hole collet and another three going progressively larger from there.

 

The dedicated pin vise sized sets like the Starrett-style mentioned about and particularly handy for holding very small bits which can then be chucked into a drill press. The big bucks you would pay for the Starrett set reflects the machining tolerances that ensure very accurate concentricity of the bits. That level of accuracy is always nice to have, but it's not necessary for modeling wood working.

 

The "hand vise" or "jeweler's vise" is an entirely different animal from the pin vise, even though they are both called vises. The pin vise is for holding drill bits and awl points and things like that and is used as a tool holder. The hand vise is not a tool holder, but rather a workpiece holder. Hand vises come in many shapes and sizes, some being quite specialized. There's nothing better for holding small parts when you need to work on them. The one linked above that has a hole in the handle so a long rod can be run through is designed primarily for pulling long lengths of wire and rod through a draw plate to siize or shape the work piece. The ability to run the rod or wire straight through the handle permits long lengths of material to be puled though the draw plate while maintaining a grip on it close to the face of the draw plate.

 

For general modeling purposes, the engraver's hand vise, sometimes called a "universal work holder" is one of the most versatile of all hand vises:

 

 

$13.00 from Rio Grande jewelry supply house: Universal Work Holder with Handle - RioGrande

 

Work can be held between the open jaws shown above or work pieces of practically any shape that will fit between the pegs inserted on the face of the vise can be held by placing the pegs as necessary for the sides of the pegs in the holes to squeeze the sides of the irregularly shaped work piece. The wooden handle also screws off, leaving a square block that can be mounted in the jaws of a fixed bench vise to hold the "Universal Work Holder" securely for two-handed work. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Dr PR]

I have  the swivel head pin vise shown above and use it a lot. But it has several issues:

 

1. It will not hold the very small drill buts - nothing smaller than about 0.025 inch (0.6 mm).

2. If I am using several drill bits it is a nuisance to have to be switching collets back and forth.

3. It does not allow the use of long drill bits (no opening in the swivel part). This is a problem only if you are drilling very deep holes and I have done that only a few times in the last four decades.

4. Similarly, it cannot be used to hold long rods with just the end protruding from the collet. I modified my other pin vise (with a fixed wooden knob) to allow long rods and drill bits to be used.

 

Not long ago I purchased the four piece set also mentioned above. These have turned out to be invaluable! I may use them more than the first pin vise. The smallest size will hold the tiniest drill bits (#80, 0.0135 inch/0.34 mm) firmly. They do allow the use of long bits or rods, and they can be chucked into a milling machine, drill press or lathe (however, I doubt they are made with enough precision to use with the smallest bits in a milling machine).

 

Having said this, hand drilling with the very small bits is just asking for a broken bit! Chuck the bit all the way into the pin vise with just enough extending necessary to drill the depth needed!

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Dr PR said:

I have  the swivel head pin vise shown above and use it a lot. But it has several issues:

 

1. It will not hold the very small drill buts - nothing smaller than about 0.025 inch (0.6 mm).

I haven't encountered this problem with the one I have. It has a "zero" sized collet which closes completely and will hold even the smallest numbered bit.

 

Other than that, I agree completely with the advantages and disadvantages you mentioned. I would only add that when I use the separately sized collet pin vises in my drill press with a small bit, I generally turn the drill press chuck manually rather than with the motor turning the quill because there's less chance of breaking the tiny bits with a very slow hand rotation. I don't think that this is a "one size fits all" situation. Sometimes you have to have the right tool to do the job and that may mean buying more than one pin vise.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[CPDDET]

I purchassed the 4 piece Starrett set some time ago and never looked back. 

[Balclutha75]

Thanks for all this detailed information, really appreciated!

 

Overnight in thinking about how I was using this, I realized I was often going back and forth between 2 or 3 different sized bits and having to constantly change. Therefore, the set if four vises actually makes good sense. So for the price, I'll probably just order both of the items Ryland linked in post #2.

 

This is still around 6x cheaper than the Starrett 4-piece set, which I'm sure is fabulous, but I don't think my skill level and usage warrants it.

 

Thanks again.

[mtaylor]

I too have one of those that Bob Cleek mentions.  Works very well.  However, age is a battle with tightening anything.  I've found to tighten the collet I need to use two sets of pliers to add just a bit of torque.  Not the best solution but it works for me.  I realize at some point, I'll have toss it and find a better tool.

[BETAQDAVE]

On 7/12/2023 at 5:47 PM, mtaylor said:

I've found to tighten the collet I need to use two sets of pliers to add just a bit of torque.  Not the best solution but it works for me.

Same problem here Mark.

[Rik Thistle]

The set of 4x pin vices that Ryland mentioned earier is useful since it allows your most commonly used drills to be left in each vice. And finger tightening is sufficient. However, once in a blue moon, the nut jams on the collet and is a devil to get off. The only other drawback is the other end of the pin vice can get a bit sore on the fingers if doing a lot of rotations.

 

The vice with collets hidden inside is much more pleasant to use (ie rotate) but, as mentioned, sometimes needs a good bit of force to grip the drill bit. It is also slightly bulkier.

 

I have both types...I'd say it's a 50:50 split decision, depending on the use case.

 

Richard

[Darius359au]

I use this one , trumpeter master tools pin vice 0-3mm

quick video review of it

 

[Roger Pellett]

It would seem that there are two types of pin vices; ones like the Trumpeter tool shown above intended for hand drilling and those intended for more general use as the Starrett or Moody four tool sets.  Wherever possible I try to machine drill holes and these pin vices can be used to hold very small drills.  The pin Vice with its drill can then be chucked in my Sherline sensitive drilling attachment.

 

Wherever possible, I try to reduce the number of moving parts when working.  I therefore do not find hand vices to be particularly useful.  My shop is equipped with several bench vices and I use these whenever possible.  If I were just beginning to outfit a model building shop my first tool would be a good bench vice.

 

Roger

[wefalck]

There are umpteen different types of pin- and hand-vises from different professions ranging from watchmakers, toolmakers to biologists and the medical professions. Some of them are meant mainly for tool-holding, while other are primarily for work-holding.

 

A while ago, I put together a couple of pictures of the different types of work- and tool-holding devices that I have in my workshop (see also https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/tools/workholding/workholding.html). :

1 - Archimedes drill for watchmakers.
 2 - Slender modern pin-vice with hollow fluted brass body.
 3 - Slender antique pin-vice with hollow fluted brass body.
 4 - Shop-made pin-vice with walnut body and head made from an insert drill-chuck; these drill-chucks are unfit for their intended purpose as they usually do not run true.
 5 - Eclipse toolmaker's pin-vice with knurled steel body; these come in different sizes.
 6 - French-style pin-vice; these are closed with the sliding ring and have usually brass inserts in the two jaws that can be adapted to special needs;
 7 - Dito, here the jaws are replaced in hard-wood for delicate parts.
 8 - Antique laboratory pin-vice with fluted wooden handle.
 9 - Modern pin-vice with fluted wooden handle; these come in different sizes and capacities.
10 - Antique toolmaker's pin-vice for very delicate work in confined spaces.

1 - Toolmaker's hand-held vice that is closed with a sliding ring.
 2 - Hand-vice with parallel serrated jaws moved by a screw.
 3 - Antique american style hand-vice; the jaws are closed by screwing in the conical body; the handle and body have been replaced.
 4 - Hand-held collet-holder; this uses horological lathe collets; the advantage is that work can be transferred between the holder and the lathe when it has the nominal collet diameter.
 5 - Castrovejo surgical non-locking needle-holder; they come in various sizes, this has medium tips for eye-surgery.
 6 - Antique surgical locking needle-holder; these come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes.

A selection of Castrovejo eye-surgery tools:
1 - fine-pointed non-locking needle-holder with straight smooth tips
2 - fine-pointed locking needle-holder with smooth tips
3 - fine-pointed blade-breaker - this are used to break off pieces from razor-blades to be used a very sharp scalpels
4 - very fine-pointed tweezers - they are stiffer and less springy than the typical watchmakers or biological tweezers
5 - medium-pointed non-locking needle-holder with curved smooth tips
 

And finally a small precision bench-vise with 30 mm jaws that I mounted on a wooden stand so that it can be shovelled around the workbench. There used to cast-iron bases for these, but they are extremely rare:

Most of these tools are 'antiques', but some are still available new. Interestingly, different countries seem to prefer different types of tools. For instance nos. 6 and 7 in the first picture I have only seen in France, while no. 3 in the second picture is an US American tool type.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by wefalck

[Wintergreen]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

Interestingly, different countries seem to prefer different types of tools. For instance nos. 6 and 7 in the first picture I have only seen in France, while no. 3 in the second picture is an US American tool.

I guess that comes down to how the various trades has evolved in different countries. Like how dentists work in one countr vs another, watchmakers, jewellers and so on. I too have marvelled over this where one tool that is prevalent locally can not be found elsewhere or overseas, and vice versa.