Would you buy pre-owned wooden kits?

[Frank Burroughs]

Right now I am saving money by buying plastic kits while gathering together tools and books.  Next year, or so, my first wooden kit will be started.  Since it will be harder and more expensive, I think a new kit would be worth the money.  My interest lies 1800 to 1930 in ships to build .  My first plastic kit had a piece broken and another missing.  Who knows what shape the next three pre-owned kits are in.  My skill is low enough flaws will happen.  What's a missing part or two.

The wooden kits, then scratch builds, are a different story.  Hopefully they all will be keepers.  I should acquire new kits.  However, some kits are out of production.  Do I buy used?

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

I have recently bought several pre-owned wooden ship kits from eBay. All were reputable European and American brands. About a third were out of production. All were complete and in good condition. All but one still had the wood sealed in its moisture barrier packaging (and I suspect the exception didn’t have such packaging when new). I limited my bids to half of the retail price and paid about a third of the retail price overall.  
 

I can neither recommend nor condemn the practice because I might just have been lucky. This is simply some data for you to consider. 

[Louie da fly]

The only caveat would be that if the wood is old enough it might have dried out, warped, cracked or whatever. Might be a problem if buying online where you can't inspect the kit first.

 

Otherwise I know of no problems (except perhaps availability of replacement parts if the model is no longer in production or the company has gone out of business - but then wood is a very forgiving medium, and it's quite possible that you could make your own replacement part if needed).

 

Steven

[Frank Burroughs]

Just now, Louie da fly said:

it's quite possible that you could make your own replacement part if needed).

That's doable.  I carved wood for ten years.  Oh joy, more tools!

[Bob Cleek]

I would caution you to steer clear of older second-hand wooden kits unless you are thoroughly familiar with a given kit. There have been tremendous advances in kit "technology" in recent years, notably, CNC laser cutting has made the newer kits less challenging to assemble. You will find that many of the kits sold forty, or perhaps even thirty years ago, especially solid hull kits, will demand as much scratch-building as an actual scratch build you do yourself, exclusive of the plans development and that what plans there are will often be simply a lines drawing, a spar schedule, and a rigging outline.  Make sure you are familiar with any used kit you contemplate buying. Checking the building log section for kit reviews will alert you to any potential problems with any given kit.  As you probably know, there is a huge difference between assembling a plastic kit and building a wooden kit that will require a considerable amount of cutting, shaping, turning and even carving.

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

21 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I would caution you to steer clear of older second-hand wooden kits unless you are thoroughly familiar with a given kit....Checking the building log section for kit reviews will alert you to any potential problems with any given kit.

 

Excellent advice. I was able to find logs or at least reviews for every kit that I bid on at auction. It tales only moments online and saves a lot of pain. (It's also a good way to find out whether the kit is from a pirate manufacturer.)

[Frank Burroughs]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

caution you to steer clear of older second-hand wooden kits unless you are thoroughly familiar with a given kit

Coming from plastic to wood kits, the best first experience is needed.  I'll skip buying pre-owned until a few are put together and the research is done.  Plastic kits and wood kits must be night and day.  Rather learn those differences first than fabricate missing or damaged pieces.

 

On new wooden kits, will the manufacturer replaces missing or damaged parts? 

[Cathead]

I second Bob's advice. Older kits are very likely to have subpar quality materials, especially things like cannons, fittings, and rope, even if the wood is fine. Any money you save may well be sucked up by upgrading these items. And it's much more likely the instructions are poor, or at the very least make a lot of assumptions about your knowledge and skill set. Experienced modelers can enjoy the challenge of such kits, but there's a good chance they'll be a trap for a newer builder. Start with a new kit from a really reputable modeler, something small enough to not feel like a giant outlay if that's a concern, and use that to develop enough skills and comfort that you can then dive into "restoring" older kits.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I'll second all of the above, however I've picked up a couple pre-owned 'older' kits - some of them either partially built or 'missing some items' - to use for some of the materials and fittings.  If you can find something like that at a flea market or garage sale (being able to have a look at it) inexpensively, there may be deadeyes, 'good enough' blocks, various sizes of wood stock and doweling (sometime these are pre-tapered for yards - a great convenience), and various fittings that may include pins, ladders, ship's boats, gratings, etc.  And sometimes the rigging rope is OK.

 

  There is another twist in the 'old kit' and 'plastic v/s wood' scenario, and there is at least one example I found and have acted upon.  Having reviewed a couple Robert E. Lee builds on MSW (and it is a fine subject not having canon/gunports or complex masting and rigging to do - but there are other 'fiddly bits'), I bought an old, unbuilt Scientific kit on Ebay that had a buy-now price (not uncommon).  These come up regularly, and there were several on Ebay when I was looking.  I was happy with the kit up-on arrival, and it is in my stash for a future time - unless it ends up in my estate, but I don't mind just looking at it (or even thinking about it) from time to time - as I like to occasionally open and examine everything stashed.  'Funny thing about the Scientific kit, is that there is no 'stated scale' on the box ('can't forget if I did a kit review or not, but elsewhere have noted this feature).  So I measured the wooden hull pre-form and calculated that it was about 1:163 compared to the stats for the original hull length.

 

  THEN, a Lindbergh kit of the same steamboat (also sold under the Pyro brand) turned up at a rock shop adjacent to an Allentown, PA area cavern that had a tempting price on it ... it looked like a number of plastic models from someone's stash had ended up there. The box scale was 1:163 !  So I bought the kit on speculation that it was close enough to the Scientific kit to used some detailed plastic parts instead of having to effectively 'scratch-build' them on the wooden model.  As luck would have it, the plastic hull was the same length as the wood.  Having much of the kit built from wood is much better than just building it in plastic - although some have bought laser-cut wood decking from HIS models for the Pyro/Lindbergh kit, but this only covers the main deck and not those above.

 

  Using the plastic molded boiler and piping when the Scientific kit gets built will certainly be more convenient than near-scratch making from cunks of wood and dowel.  The Scientific kit does not have rotating paddle wheels - just partial segments that project below the wooden covers.  But the Lindbergh kit has fully rotating paddle wheels that can be incorporated into the Scientific model, that will have the wooden housing built over them.  The turned wooden stacks in the Scientific kit are preferable, yet the fancy molded stack tops from the Lindbergh kit will be better than cutting them from the stiff paper in the Scientific kit (or trying to make then from brass stock) - and the tricky pair of braces that go in between the stacks may be easier to do with plastic parts ... it all gets painted.  I could go on, but its safe to say that  "melding"  both these kits will give me a result better than with either one alone ... a happy marriage of wood AND plastic.

[myxyzptlyk2003]

No easy answer to this one.     As you state you have not been a wood model builder before, I would absolutely advise you to  stick with a "modern"kit.    One of the Vanguard models would be an ideal beginner kit for someone with only basic to moderate skills.   As stated previously, older kits just don't meet the standards/features that have been developed over the recent years.  There have been so many advances in kit quality.   As to part quality I think most older kits are generally OK.   Case in point.    About 30 years ago I built the AMATI HMS Prince kit.    At the time it was a superb kit and resulted in a beautiful model.     Last year I was able to pick up the same kit, complete and unused.    Upon inspection everything looked good.   But then I remembered that with this kit NONE of the frames were precut.    There were NO precut pieces.  Everything was preprinted on the wood stock but I am going to have to cut out each piece.     All newer kits have all of those pieces precut.     Overall, this 25-30 year old kit held up well to "aging".      I suppose depending on storage some wood may deteriorate but in my experience that has not been much of a factor.    And then, you can fairly easily replace any "bad" wood. 

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

2 hours ago, myxyzptlyk2003 said:

No easy answer to this one.     As you state you have not been a wood model builder before, I would absolutely advise you to  stick with a "modern"kit.    One of the Vanguard models would be an ideal beginner kit for someone with only basic to moderate skills.  

 

I agree entirely. My first build and so far only completion was the Vanguard Models Zulu fishing boat. If you can find one of the smaller Vanguard models second hand, I think that would be perfect. They do pop up from time to time, as one of the ones I found was an HMS Alert - box worn but contents pristine - Price £102. 

 

(Er, I may have drifted into bragging, sorry. Only you guys understand. There's no-one else I could tell. 😏) 

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

On new wooden kits, will the manufacturer replaces missing or damaged parts? 

Most will. Many will even replace parts you've botched up yourself! It would be good to do a search on this forum to see the policy of any particular kit manufacturer regarding parts availability. The second consideration after you confirm that they do have a part replacement policy is to confirm that they are able to provide parts for the model kit you have. Sometimes, a run of kits are manufactured and stocked by the manufacturer but spare parts are no longer available. Sometimes parts are generic and used for several different models in the manufacturer's line. (Which is why you will find out-of-scale or out of period fittings on the models sold by some manufacturers. E.g., an 19th Century anchor in a 18th Century model kit!) or some parts for a specific model kit are left over after the kit production run. Other times, Spare parts have been sold or are otherwise no longer in stock and you will probably be out of luck even it the company would have been happy to send you a replacement part if they still had any in stock.

 

Regarding purchasing kits in current production, I think that most experienced modelers would strongly advise you to start your wooden model building learning curve with the Model Shipways Shipwright Series of kits. See: Model Shipways Shipwright Series (modelexpo-online.com) Few kit manufacturers are as forthright as Model Shipways is in telling beginning wooden ship modelers the realities of the hobby's learning curve and the fact that there is no point in wasting a large amount of money and effort trying to build a square-rigged ship-of-the line bristling with cannon as your first attempted kit build!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Frank Burroughs]

Just now, Bob Cleek said:

start your wooden model building learning curve with the Model Shipways Shipwright Series of kits

That is a good idea.  A small start that goes harder at stages.  The Vangaurd models look more advanced, and good.

 

Just now, Bob Cleek said:

Many will even replace parts you've botched up yourself

Hot damn!

[GrandpaPhil]

As long as you pay attention to the condition of the model, I have personally not had any problems with buying a 2nd hand wood model.

[Dr PR]

Frank,

 

There is NO comparison between plastic model kits and wooden model kits. None! They are entirely different worlds!

 

As a kid I built dozens of plastic models (I actually stared with balsa wood kits before plastic models were invented). The pieces fit together nicely, and all I needed was a bit of glue and some paint, with a minimum of tools. But in middle/high school I started building my first scratch build vessels (a schooner and a Chris Craft cabin cruiser) with whatever materials I could scrounge up and no plans - just what I could draw up from my imagination. They weren't much to look at, and certainly weren't accurate, but I learned a lot!

 

Then, after college (1970s) when I could afford it, I started building wooden ship model kits. I quickly learned that wooden kits are much closer to scratch building than plastic kits. The parts never fit together without some reworking and I always had to create many of the details from scratch. And they really weren't very accurate replicas of the real things. I have newer (1990s) wooden ship kits in my stash but they aren't much better. The "instructions" often were just one or two pages saying "build the hull, add the masts., and finish the rigging."

 

Newer kits with laser cut parts and an extensive collection of fittings are closer to the plastic models of fifty years ago, and some actually have credible instructions. But they still are much harder to build, especially for a newbie! Just look at some of the kit builds on the forum by novice wood ship modelers. Often parts do not fit correctly or the modeler just doesn't understand the arcane terminology in the instructions. The hassles of new wooden kit builders speaks much more loudly than all the pretty advertising BS put out by the model companies!!

 

Don't let this discourage you. Just realize that your first wooden ship model, no matter what the kit manufacturer is, will not be a museum quality piece. It will be a challenge! You will need a lot greater variety of tools and much more experience than for your last plastic model build. But it will be your first step toward that future museum piece (family heirloom). And the satisfaction of having overcome the difficulties and finishing even a basic wooden ship model makes it worth the effort!

[Frank Burroughs]

Just now, Dr PR said:

Don't let this discourage you. Just realize that your first wooden ship model, no matter what the kit manufacturer is, will not be a museum quality piece. It will be a challenge! You will need a lot greater variety of tools and much more experience than for your last plastic model build. But it will be your first step toward that future museum piece (family heirloom). And the satisfaction of having overcome the difficulties and finishing even a basic wooden ship model makes it worth the effort!

Start out small and think big!  When the large plastic kits prove this is more than a passing fad, I'll build a wooden rowboat.  Ever since skipping class to read C.S. Forester in the college library I have been hooked on the sea.  I don't mind building the plastic ships.  TThe challenge of the wooden kits pulls me there.

[Jaager]

The following is mostly accurate - it is easier to write in absolutes, yet almost nothing really is:

 

Collecting ship model kits is mostly a total expense.  An investment ain't in it.  You may as well collect full Kleenex boxes.

 

As an entry for wooden models of sailing ships,  plastic kits are a negative preparation.  Unrealistic expectations about what instructions will provide must be overcome. I have a sense that some have been so frustrated and indignant over the nature of especially older kit instructions that they have abandoned wooden ship modeling.  An "I'll show them." response.  They did not accept that learning  esoteric and difficult new "language" and skills  is necessary,  It is the challenge of the thing that is a great appeal.  It is not something that can be totally mastered.  It is finite,  but that number is much bigger than a lifetime.

 

Plastic is mostly a really terrible to use to replicate a wooden vessel.  If you care about wooden ships, use wood to model them.  You sorta have to do it to understand the difference in feel.

Plastic is much better than wood to replicate a steel vessel.

 

[Frank Burroughs]

Just now, Jaager said:

As an entry for wooden models of sailing ships,  plastic kits are a negative preparation

Perhaps.  The plastic phase gives me a sense of accomplishment to do the wood phase.  It is a year I can enjoy before another round of collecting tools for wood building.  Then the frustration of learning a new set of skills.  I am in it for the journey from plastic to scratch.

 

Just now, Jaager said:

  If you care about wooden ships, use wood to model them.  You sorta have to do it to understand the difference in feel.

Plastic is much better than wood to replicate a steel vessel.

I started this because a Three Island Tramp Steamer model to match the ship in the novel I am writing does not exist.  Looking at the problem a few years plan evolved to go from sailing ships to steamers.  Plastic kits are cheap and easy to start with.  Wood kits will probably be a lot harder and more expensive.  Not to mention a whole new set of tools.  The tramp steamer will give me a good reason to buy a 3D printer, right!  The greatest part is researching each ship as it is build.  

Just now, Jaager said:

Collecting ship model kits is mostly a total expense.  An investment ain't in it.  You may as well collect full Kleenex boxes.

Not in this for money.  Can I do it?  What will it teach me about myself.  A new group of people to kick it around with.  Always went for the niche groups anyway.  Besides, I use paper towels, not  Kleenex.

[Toolmaker]

Hi Frank, it’s good to talk. I’ll start by saying you always have to plough your own furrow, and what people write here is the advice they can offer after ploughing their own. The beauty is, you get lots of it and then get to pick what to take on board (see what I did there, humour that was).

 

My only qualifications are the same as others, just what I learnt so far and it’s not that much to be fair. I previously did plenty of plastic modelling reaching an ok standard. I even managed a mention in the forward of a ship modelling book for contribution, Yay!  My biggest effort was 2000 hours spent on building a Flower Class Corvette.
 

That said, a couple or more years ago I sold all my accumulated plastic kits, around 60, and embarked on wooden ship building. For context, I’m an oldish bloke with dozens of years in mechanical engineering, good with my hands and tools and comfortable around plans and measurements (that’s my resume/CV over).

 

 Here are my thoughts on your original post.

 

First, I thought your opening line was classic modellers talk and very funny. 

 

On 9/10/2023 at 7:31 AM, Frank Burroughs said:

Right now I am saving money by buying plastic kits

 

Advice and my own journey.

 

Buy the Vanguard Fife kit. Even if you didn’t have any tools prior, you could buy everything needed for less than a large 1/200 scale plastic kit. Straight edge, scalpel, wood glue, clamps and sanding sticks/paper is all that’s needed. An electric drill is handy to taper the mast, but not necessary. It’s a simple hull shape but offering all the opportunities to learn good planking techniques. A kit even as basic as this (don’t mistake basic for poor quality) will likely take a number of months to complete. By the end you will know if you wish to continue with wooden ship building without great expense.

Yes, this was my first wood build and yes I did have a lot to learn and yes I did want more.

 

Learning from my previous “eyes bigger than stomach” syndrome I went for the Vanguard HMS Alert. Another great quality kit that would offer me a (slightly) more complex hull shape and a goodly starter complement of rigging. Man, I was going to need to up my tool chest for this one. The Amati keel clamp was more excuse than absolutely necessary but acquired nevertheless, along with a palm plane and a hair dryer(travel iron is another option). Some months later I was again on the lookout for the next step as I saw it.

 

Syren Medway Longboat. Large scale demanding greater accuracy. For the third time in a row I had chosen a fabulous kit. This route exposes you as there can be no blame laid on the kit for any failure. That’s not quite how I saw it but more that I was giving myself the best chance of success. The longboat was another leap in acquiring skills needed for my ultimate builds.

It was only after this that I flicked the switch on tool purchase. A saw and sander imported from the US, a US made milling machine and a German dust extractor (ha, and me a British engineer).

 

I have now embarked on building two Syren models. HMS Cheerful and HMS Winchelsea. I call them my legacy builds as I feel my plastic ships will be heading for the rubbish bin when I’m gone but the kids will probably keep the wooden stuff.

I have purchased the kit components from Syren for both and the wood has come from Vahur at Hobbymill. What a great guy he is. He cut the Winchelsea planks for me but  I’m milling all my own for Cheerful. These two builds will take 5 to 6 years to complete which is akin to me saying don’t acquire a stash of wooden kits as they take such a long time to build.

 

Well that’s as long winded as I have ever been and tells you my route from plastic to wood ship building. Basically don’t acquire more than you need and get going on the skill building. Give yourself the best chance by using a good kit. If you are specific subject driven then this is more difficult but it is easier to acquire the skills with good materials.

 

Lastly, I have always been both impressed and grateful by the effort that Bob Cleek gives in his responses to people’s questions on this forum. His commitment to full and rational replies was my inspiration for this one.

Cheers Bob and good luck Frank

 

regards

Paul

[Frank Burroughs]

Just now, Toolmaker said:

Vanguard Fife kit

Looks like a likely candidate for first builds.   Model Shipways Shipwright Series will probably work in there somewhere.

 

Just now, Toolmaker said:

Vanguard HMS Alert

Beautiful next step.  

 

Just now, Toolmaker said:

Basically don’t acquire more than you need and get going on the skill building. Give yourself the best chance by using a good kit.

the only way to go.  Figure it will take more time once the wooden kits come along.

 

Just now, Toolmaker said:

impressed and grateful by the effort that Bob Cleek gives in his responses

Yes, I am impressed also.

 

Will I go to Hell if  a plastic kit and a wood kit are done at the same time?  The more I read about making wooden models two work areas seem needed, one clean and one to let the dust fly.  There is a garage.  But wheelchairs don't go through six months of snow well.  I have a ten foot wall closet to turn into a ventilated work work area.  The garage can be used in the summer to cut model wood.  Can you store model wood in an unheated garage when it gets -40 F for two weeks at a time?

So, work in two mediums in two areas, right!  I find myself waiting on paint or glue to dry.  Rigging is fun.  However, a break is needed frequently.

[Toolmaker]

Hey Frank, this post will be substantially shorter than the previous.

 

Don't overthink it mate, grab the Fife or similar. There is no wood to cut, there is no need for the garage. The painted hull is done with acrylics so no ventilation. Sanding is maybe 3 or 4 hours over the complete build, so half a day outside is the total demand. Think easy.

 

I do everything in a spare bedroom.

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

10 minutes ago, Toolmaker said:

Hey Frank, this post will be substantially shorter than the previous.

 

Don't overthink it mate, grab the Fife or similar. There is no wood to cut, there is no need for the garage. The painted hull is done with acrylics so no ventilation. Sanding is maybe 3 or 4 hours over the complete build, so half a day outside is the total demand. Think easy.

 

I do everything in a spare bedroom.

 

He's right you know. It's only a hobby, stop worrying about getting everything right in advance and just do it. Come on in, the water's lovely! 😁

[Tomculb]

A couple of anecdotal thoughts:

 

While the selection is very limited, I would always start a search for a pre-owned kit in this forum on these boards. Your odds of finding a knowledgeable, communicative and honest seller have got to be better than on eBay.  Several years ago I bought Model Shipways discontinued solid hull model of the Yacht America here and was very pleased.

 

As a newbie you might also want to take a  look at Midwest Models boat kits.  They went out of business but seem to be back, probably under new owners.  I bought and built their Peterboro Canoe kit and really enjoyed it . . . and learned a lot.  They have quite a variety of small boat model kits.

[allanyed]

 

The many reasons for staying away from used kits for a beginner like yourself are well stated above but you may get lucky like some others have.  

 

On 9/10/2023 at 3:50 PM, Bob Cleek said:

Regarding purchasing kits in current production, I think that most experienced modelers would strongly advise you to start your wooden model building learning curve with the Model Shipways Shipwright Series of kits

 The above statement is possibly the very best advice in this string.  You will learn proper techniques and good habits before moving on to more complex kits or scratch building.  

 

Allan

Edited September 12, 2023 by allanyed

[Frank Burroughs]

Model Shipways Shipwright Series combo is the ticket.  I have it in the check out.  All I need is recommendations for glue and tools before hitting the button. 

[Frank Burroughs]

Looks like I have everything if PVA glue can be used

[Frank Burroughs]

Model Shipways Shipwright Series combo bought.  Thanks folks for talking me into the water.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Frank Burroughs said:

Model Shipways Shipwright Series combo is the ticket.  I have it in the check out.  All I need is recommendations for glue and tools before hitting the button. 

PVA is all you'll need. You can get that at any hardware or craft store. The same goes for tools. You'll not need many tools for those kits and it's better to buy tools when you know you need them than when you think you'll need them. The nice thing about ship modeling is that I don't think there are any tools that you must have to do it. Just tools that make it easier to do as you go along.

[Frank Burroughs]

Do I need a tool, or, desire a tool?!  There has to be a twelve-step program to stop buying tools and books.

[rcmdrvr]

I am going to add a bit of a curve ball to this thread.  I have built a few wooden ship models from kits and have enjoyed every minute of the process.  I hit a point where I looked at many wooden ship kits that were within my price range and found that many were very similar; i.e. ships of sail with masts and rigging and usually some cannons.  My last build, the Harriet Land, added steam power and  that piqued my interest in more modern ship designs; especially warships.  The wooden ship manufacturers do not cater to engine powered warships.  While I have stumbled on some wooden kits of these subjects; they are prohibitively expensive and quite large.  This has led me to 1/350 scale plastic.  Wow, this is a wholly different ship modelling world.  I purchased an inexpensive kit that contained some photo-etch as a practice project.  It turned out to be a dismal, never to be completed project but I did learn that there is a whole bunch of new skills that I will need to learn to build good looking models in plastic.  Puts some new excitement back into the hobby.  I have learned, however, that the common skill required for wooden and plastic ship models is PATIENCE!

 

I hope this is not stealing a thread.