SS Blagoev ex-Songa 1921 by Valeriy V - scale 1:100 - Soviet Union

[Valeriy V]

Photo of the general view of the model hull as of today. I have work ahead of me on deck.

[Wreck1919]

As always phantastic work Valeriy ! Am always following your builds, but often forget to leave an answer or comment. 
all best 

sascha

 

[cotrecerf]

Dear Valeriy,

and again:  thank you very much for your technology insight...a lot to learn and to keep in mind as a reference for own projects.

I appreciate your adaptiveness to materials locally at hand as you are bringing me back from my tendency of applying technical "overkill".

I am looking forward to this fine built.

 

Best regards, greetings 

 

Joachim

[Valeriy V]

Sasha and Joachim, thank you for your nice reviews!  

   

By the way, I wanted to look at the work of German modelers and tried to register on the forum a couple of times.

https://www.marine-modellbau-und-mehr.de/ 

 

But both times they didn’t let me go beyond the security check step. And now I’m at a loss as to whether I’m doing something wrong or whether I’m dangerous in some way (just kidding).     

[Valeriy V]

As usual, there are not enough drawings for the model, so I will use information from other ships.

 

This is a fragment of a drawing of the outer cladding in German (ss UHENFELS ).

I need your help in determining the name of this rectangular cutout, if of course there is this name on the drawing.

It is located in the underwater part of the ship in the area of the engine and boiler room.

[Javelin]

Yes, the name is there. It says opening for "wasserkasten", which as far as I know is a cooling water inlet. It does say BB, which would mean it's only on the portside and not on starboard (the note about overlap of plating does mention BB and SB).

 

Great job on that hull so far. Very sharp and professional result! 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Javelin

[Valeriy V]

55 minutes ago, Javelin said:

Yes, the name is there. It says opening for "wasserkasten", which as far as I know is a cooling water inlet. It does say BB, which would mean it's only on the portside and not on starboard (the note about overlap of plating does mention BB and SB).

 

Great job on that hull so far. Very sharp and professional result! 

Thanks for your help and feedback!  

If this is a hole for receiving water, then a grate should be installed on it.

[Dr PR]

Valeriy,

 

I tried to access the German marine modelbuilders web site and did get to see the opening page. But I wasn't able to open any of the topics - just ads and cookie setting pages. The German to English translator worked OK. I do not have an account/password for the site.

 

Wasserkasten translates into English as "water box."

 

You are correct that if the opening is a water intake there would be some type of grating over it. Discharges sometimes do not have a grating.

 

But is it a water intake or discharge? How large is the opening? If it is very large it probably is cooling water for the condensers. One clue might be another roughly equal sized opening forward or aft of this one. The leading opening might be the intake of cooling water to the condenser, and the aft opening would be the discharge. The condenser openings probably would have been on the bottom of the hull. If there is no matching hole it is probably just a water intake for distillation, fire fighting water or such. Or a discharge.

 

I suspect the area around the opening with the diagonal lines is a backing plate to strengthen the hull plating around the opening. I think the German "Uberlappungauf BB der Platten 8a" means overlapping on plate 8a. Possibly inside the hull, but I have seen examples where the backing plate was on the outside of the hull plating.

 

It has been over 60 years since I studied German so take my translations with caution!

Edited November 7, 2023 by Dr PR

[NavyShooter]

Perhaps the right term is "sea chest" or "sea bay" for a water inlet.

 

 

[Valeriy V]

Most likely, this rectangular and relatively large hole is really for receiving water from the condenser. It is located at the very bottom of the vertical side, at the side keel.
 A little higher to the right you can see one round hole.

[Javelin]

Sea chest is indeed the official name for that. This appears to be the high sea chest, normally used in shallow water, while you normally also have a lower sea chest in the bottom of the ship, for use in deeper water (normal). 

Not sure if this system was already applied at that time period or if they just had 1 sea chest. 

Not sure on that hole in the drawing. Is that hole located above the waterline? I believe Ventil (with a word I can't really read), may mean overboard valve, not sure of which system though.

The hole is also only located on Port side (nur BB). 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Javelin

[druxey]

Insguss? That would be an inlet.

[cotrecerf]

8 hours ago, Valeriy V said:

Sasha and Joachim, thank you for your nice reviews!  

   

By the way, I wanted to look at the work of German modelers and tried to register on the forum a couple of times.

https://www.marine-modellbau-und-mehr.de/ 

 

But both times they didn’t let me go beyond the security check step. And now I’m at a loss as to whether I’m doing something wrong or whether I’m dangerous in some way (just kidding).     

Hi Valeriy,

 I have just visited marine-modellbau forum and found the following:

1. You have to REGISTER there  AND have to WAIT for their confirming email to the email-address you indicated BEFORE you can enter the forum.

2. There are 2 small tick boxes somewhat hidden in the text of their Terms and Conditions you have to agree to during registration process. These can be easily overlooked.

 

So, right now I am waiting for said email confirmation......Just received: it says I will receives a second email in acouüple of days, when my reidtrating will have been manually checked. And: I can visit the forum as a GUEST, which I am going to check right now.

 

Best regards

 

Joachim

[cotrecerf]

2 hours ago, Valeriy V said:

Most likely, this rectangular and relatively large hole is really for receiving water from the condenser. It is located at the very bottom of the vertical side, at the side keel.
 A little higher to the right you can see one round hole.

The round hole says: "Ventil-Ausguss nur BB (Backbord)"  which means: Valve-Discharge only portside

[wefalck]

The forum https://www.marine-modellbau-und-mehr.de/  is a bit special. The original owner was a rather strange character, he died a couple of years ago. The guy, who continues it, seems to continue also the rather selective admission policies.

The policy seems to be to admit to the forum only people they know or people who have been recommended. As the original owner somehow didn't like me (though I never did anything bad to him knowlingly) and had apparently put me on a black list, the new owner didn't admit me either. When I tried to register out of curiosity under a false name and different email address, hiding even my IP address, I never got a response to my application.

In summary, I don't think it's worthwhile to register there.

[Valeriy V]

8 hours ago, cotrecerf said:

Hi Valeriy,

 I have just visited marine-modellbau forum and found the following:

 

Thank you Joachim!  
If your experience is successful, please let me know.

 

8 hours ago, cotrecerf said:

The round hole says: "Ventil-Ausguss nur BB (Backbord)"  which means: Valve-Discharge only portside

This means the bottom rectangular hole is for water inlet, and the top one is for outlet.

[Valeriy V]

7 hours ago, wefalck said:

The forum https://www.marine-modellbau-und-mehr.de/  is a bit special. The original owner was a rather strange character, he died a couple of years ago. The guy, who continues it, seems to continue also the rather selective admission policies.

 

Thanks for your story!

This explains a lot about my failed attempts.

[IronShips]

Dear Valeriy,

 

My interpretation of the drawing is as follows: 

 

The hull plates are overlapping for riveting purposes (lap joints, no butt joints).

 

On the port side of the vessel and as strengthening, the underlaying plate is extending more forward to serve as a doubler for the installation of the sea chest. 

 

As a result, the extra extension of the overlap is not visible from outside.

 

It is also correct that on large, modern ships usually two sea chests are installed. One is fitted to the bottom of the ship (in German „Tiefsauger“) whilst the second one is located above the turn of the bilge at the side of the ship (in German „Hochsauger“).

 

The deeper sea chest is used in open waters, so that the flow of the cooling water suction is not effected by the state of the sea. 

When the ship is approaching port and is entering shallow waters, the engineers switch over from the lower to the upper sea chest to minimize the vessel picking up sediments through the lower sea chest.

 

Sea chests are usually used for sea cooling water inlets. Inside the chest, a filter system is installed. You are correct that a sea chest is usually protected by a steel grill fitted to the hull. (I would assume that the bars of such a grill were made from flat iron bars, mounted vertically and perhaps with a spacing not exceeding 4“ or approx 10 cm.)

 

Sea Chest are centralized locations to collect cooling water from the sea, serving various consumers of the vessel. Condensers are large consumers amongst them, as mentioned above. Sea chests are usually fitted in the vicinity of the „pump station“ in the engine room, where the main seawater cooling and fire fighting pumps are installed.

 

Cooling water outlets are usually not combined in sea chests and are located in various places in the ship, often passing the hull shell above the waterline to minimize backpressure.

 

I was also wondering when sea chests have been introduced. Prior to the introduction of sea chests, cooling water was picked through various inlets in the shell, which was not ideal from a maintenance and a safety point of view.

 

I have been dealing with two medium size vessels built approx. 1930 which were not fitted-out with sea chests, which I found rather strange as sea chests are a effective whilst relatively simple concept.

 

Regards,

 

Daniel

Edited November 11, 2023 by IronShips

[cotrecerf]

On 11/8/2023 at 5:51 AM, Valeriy V said:

Thank you Joachim!  
If your experience is successful, please let me know.

 

This means the bottom rectangular hole is for water inlet, and the top one is for outlet.

Hi Valeriy,

as concerns Marine-Modellbau forum: I got a email confirming my registration there with mxy user-name and my password. I tried to access the forum right away; the access was denied again. I guess it is a dead site.

 

best regards

Joachim

 

 

[Valeriy V]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:48 PM, IronShips said:

Dear Valeriy,

My interpretation of the drawing is as follows: 

Daniel!
Thank you for your interesting and useful information!  

Based on Blagoev’s model, I propose to depict one grate for the water box on the left side.

[Valeriy V]

21 hours ago, cotrecerf said:

Hi Valeriy,

as concerns Marine-Modellbau forum: I got a email confirming my registration there with mxy user-name and my password. I tried to access the forum right away; the access was denied again. I guess it is a dead site.

 

best regards

Joachim

Thank you Joachim! The worst assumptions were confirmed, alas.  

[IronShips]

 

 

Hello Valeriy, 

 

The following is purely speculative:

 

Taking the sideprofile of BLAGOEV (ex. SONGA) profile as published into consideration, a logical location for a sea chest would have been between frame 69 and 72. 

The boiler seem to have been fired from forward. The manifolds were probably located at the forward end of the engine room compartment and in addition, some space was needed to service a sea chest, therefore a sea chest was unlikely located forward of frame 72, if fitted.

Somewhere aft of frame 69 the engine foundation must have started and would have collided with a crossover normally (at least for the last couple of decades) fitted in combination with a sea chest.

Hence between frame 69 and 72 as a proposed location.

 

Again in the realm of speculation: Assuming the steam engine of BLAGOEV was turning right hand (clock-wise) going forward, the prefererred side to go alongside would have been portside. 

It would have therefore been logical to install a sea chest on the starboard side of the vessel, usually facing the waterside when laying in port.

 

Model makers might follow different philosophies when it comes to speculative details. I understand you want to fit a sea chest to make the ship look more real and therefore not to ignore such a important detail.

 

Good luck with your project! I love these old steamers 😀

 

Daniel

 

(As mentioned previously, I feel uncertain when sea chests have been introduced to ship construction. Any hint from any member on this forum would be much appreciated.)

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, IronShips said:

(As mentioned previously, I feel uncertain when sea chests have been introduced to ship construction. Any hint from any member on this forum would be much appreciated.)

 I asked Google and got no joy in getting a definitive answer but my guess would be after steam and platted hulls became common in the time period  ca 1880's, 1890's. 

[FriedClams]

I just this morning found your new project Valeriy and have read from the beginning your progress.  It is so good to hear that you are well and I'm excited to follow along on another one of your wonderful constructions.  Your logs are always packed with great information and techniques, which I appreciate you sharing with us.  The hull looks excellent, and I look forward to future posts with anticipation.

 

Gary

[Valeriy V]

3 hours ago, IronShips said:

 

Taking the sideprofile of BLAGOEV (ex. SONGA) profile as published into consideration, a logical location for a sea chest would have been between frame 69 and 72. 

 

Daniel! Thanks for the practical and valuable advice. I will definitely use it.  

 

 

[IronShips]

Dear Valeriy,

My Pleasure 🙂

 

Dear Keith, 

I would guess so too 👍

 

Best regards,

Daniel

[Valeriy V]

5 hours ago, IronShips said:

 

Again in the realm of speculation: Assuming the steam engine of BLAGOEV was turning right hand (clock-wise) going forward, the prefererred side to go alongside would have been portside. 

It would have therefore been logical to install a sea chest on the starboard side of the vessel, usually facing the waterside when laying in port.

 

 

Daniel!
 I want to clarify, clarify, since the translator did not translate everything clearly for me.
  Do you mean that if the ship had a right-hand rotation propeller, then the water box should also be located on the starboard side of the ship?

[Javelin]

Yes, that is what he means, however I doubt that any ship designers ever took such a practical point in account. 

 

When a right hand propellor turns in reverse, to slow down a ship, it creates a swing of the bow to starboard. This is called "the propeller effect". Therefore the easiest mooring manoevre is on portside, approach going forward, put a forward spring line on the quay bollard and then reverse the engine. Since the bow is kept fixed by the mooring line, the stern is pushed to the quay and can be made fast. 

 

With the quay on starboard this doesn't work, as reversing the engine, to slow down, the bow is pushed in the quay and the stern pulled away from it.

 

As mentioned it's doubtful designers ever took that in account as other factors would also have an impact on the mooring operation and side of mooring.

[Dr PR]

The same phenomenon is useful (to a degree) when moored on the starboard side and leaving a berth. You want the stern to swing to the port (bow to starboard) because typically there is another vessel moored behind that you must avoid. However, on the little single screw minesweeper I was on the spring lines played a far greater role in swinging the stern out than the rudder or propeller rotation.

 

But these arguments apply only to single screw ships. With twin (or quad) screws you can run one side forward and the other astern to "twist ship" more or less however you wish. On the cruiser (four screws) we always preferred docking starboard side to the pier.

 

But my experience has been that you only have a choice of berth that the harbor master assigns, and you may have to dock on either side.

[GrandpaPhil]

If it follows French design, then the sea chests would have been forward of the engines and boilers.  On the Russian Battleship Orel, it looks like the sea chests were about 1/4 of the way aft, from the bow.   My Mikasa and Grazhdanyn don’t show them, which I will have to fix when I get around to building them.

Edited November 13, 2023 by GrandpaPhil