Where was the white stuff painted?

[allanyed]

This is not the most interesting or earth shattering topic, but curiosity and the cat and all that.

 

Prior to the introduction of coppered bottoms circa 1782 the bottoms were coated with white stuff.   Ships' boats aside, were some RN ships still built without the copper sheathing in favor of the white stuff once the copper sheathing practice became the norm in the 1780s?

 

I spent some time looking at how the white protective coatings on contemporary models was done and noticed that the majority of these contemporary models had the white stuff follow the sheer of the bottom of the main wale, not the water line.   It would be easier to paint the bottom of a model like this rather than a perfectly horizontal water line but what was done on the actual ships?  To me both styles look good.

 

I have seen the white bottoms planked with holly rather than using paint and it is a truly beautiful thing but invariably seems to follow the sheer of the wales, not the waterline.  

 

TIA

 

Allan

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by allanyed

[druxey]

Look at contemporary paintings:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-11926

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-12537

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-15235

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-12551

 

Then take your pick!

[allanyed]

Thanks David

Again I see both, especially the last one, object-12551 appearing to follow the sheer of the wales.  The first is harder to see but object-12537 and object-15235  are very clear that they parallel the water line.   

Another quandry😕

Thanks again

Allan

 

Some models from RMG as well.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66327

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66374

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66407

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66403

[druxey]

I suspect that the 'only to the waterline' version was for new ships on the ways. It would be far easier to paint the white stuff using the lower edge of the wale as a guide later on. Also, there was 'black stuff'....

[allanyed]

 

3 hours ago, druxey said:

Also, there was 'black stuff'...

Oh my.  So what is the story on the black stuff regarding where it goes?  I am familiar with the black wales and black strake above the main wale, but was there also black stuff below the wales in addition to or instead of the white stuff?

Thanks!!

Allan

[Chuck Seiler]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

I have seen the white bottoms planked with holly rather than using paint and it is a truly beautiful thing

Most white stuff I see is too stark white in my opinion.  I think holly would do nicely.

[druxey]

Instead of tallow-based white stuff, a pitch-based black compound was used on some ships instead.

[Keith Black]

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1952/july/history-prevention-fouling

[Mark P]

Good Morning Allan;

 

The essential difference between 'white stuff' & 'black' was the cost. The ingredients of the black variant were cheaper, and its use was apparently widespread. However, the white was considered more efficacious, and was used for ships designated to serve in warmer, tropical seas, where the risk of worm attack was higher, and presumably fouling was worse due to longer time out of the dockyard before the ship could be graved again. 

 

However, as a black-coloured hull is not as attractive to look at as a white one, artists and modelmakers invariably use white to colour this part of the ships they depict. Artistic licence is the deciding factor in what we see, not a strict adherence to reality; understandably so, I would say. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Roger Pellett]

My opinion, not researched fact. Separating coatings of  topsides and bottoms at a designed load waterline required knowing the weight and buoyancy at the load condition at which the vessel was intended to float.  Some shipwrights could calculate buoyancies at different waterlines using similar numerical approximations as those embedded in today’s Computer systems.  They lacked, however an accurate way to determine the weight of the vessel prior to launch.  Prior to coppering there was also little need to paint the topsides differently than the bottom.  The logical place to end the (cheap) white or black stuff would be just below the Wales.  Prestige vessels might have been treated differently.

 

Roger

[mgdawson]

9 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Most white stuff I see is too stark white in my opinion.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the tallow was more a cream colour perhaps with a hint of yellow.

 

Mark

[allanyed]

 

On 12/5/2023 at 6:32 AM, mgdawson said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the tallow was more a cream colour perhaps with a hint of yellow.

Sounds right.  The below is pretty much what I am aiming for (although maybe a little less yellow) when I get to that point and mix a batch.  The trick will be to know what colors to add to a titanium white base.  Yellow is obvious but maybe a little something else will be needed.  

Allan

[thibaultron]

Vallejo Model Color Ivory 70918 maybe.

 

 

[Chuck Seiler]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

The trick will be to know what colors to add to a titanium white base

How about just unbleached titanium?

[allanyed]

Tim, it really is close to what I am shooting for and Vallejo gets much better reviews than the cheap bottled craft acrylics.  I still hesitate to use any bottled paints after spending so much time on the model.  I have never had problems with high qual artist tubed acrylics so may stay with that and mix my own.  I am wide open to trying new things but this one scares me a little.  Any feedback on using this particular paint brand would be welcome.

 

Chuck, very good point.  I have not used unbleached t.w. for a while and totally forgot about it.  Worth buying a tube and comparing colors.  

 

Thanks guys, much appreciated!!!

[Dr PR]

Allan,

 

I have spent quite a bit of time trying to find reliable period references for the colors on ships - with little luck. There are some general guidelines for British and French vessels, mainly derived from period paintings. But the exact colors probably will never be known. Artists mixed their own paints and they were, therefore, their renditions of the colors, not what was actually on the vessel. And colors change with time (fading, oxidizing, etc.). In many cases the actual colors would have been up to the Captain's whim and what paints/pigments could be had on a particular day. In other words, the colors could have been anything.

 

And the anti-fouling mixtures probably varied with each vessel. It would depend upon the type and age of the tallow, what solvents were used and how it was all mixed and applied. Again, just about anything.

 

In my opinion, you could use any off-white, slightly yellowish mixture and be just as accurate as anyone else could come up with.

 

So don't sweat the small stuff. Make it appear pleasing to your own eye, and let the beholders form their own opinions. Opinions are like noses - everyone has one. And none will be better than yours (except mine, of course).

Edited December 9, 2023 by Dr PR

[Jaager]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:40 PM, allanyed said:

I have seen the white bottoms planked with holly rather than using paint and it is a truly beautiful thing but invariably seems to follow the sheer of the wales, not the waterline. 

I have done the thought experiment of how to place a strake - that looks like a strake - made up of two different species of wood and have them butt at the waterline and have all of the other strakes that cross the waterline - when seen together - have that waterline appear to be a straight line.  There are at least two variables in play with this.   I think juggling one ball at a time is enough for me.   Just running the bottom planking as is normal starting below the wale as a single species - seems to be the best way to keep sane.

 

7 hours ago, Dr PR said:

I have spent quite a bit of time trying to find reliable period references for the colors on ships - with little luck.

The early ANCRE volumes came with a sheet of color chips.

I have a vague recollection that EAR Jr.  had early 19th century color chips in the journal - As long as they were based on mineral paints, they should be valid as likely shades possible  - for thousands, if not millions of years.

[cotrecerf]

The white stuff question is troubling me too. Here's a  paint and colour recommendation I've just found: 

JoTiKa Ltd. ~ Admiralty Paints, Matt White. (jotika-ltd.com)   Looking at the original ship paintings shown above, I do not go for the yellowish hue of Vallejo RAL 9001 out of the bottle but give it a definite light white cream colour. But as said above, there is no reliable original and it's up to the modeller's eye.

Joachim

[Roger Pellett]

Eric Ronnberg’s article complete with large scale, accurate color chips was published in the NRJ in the early 1990’s and republished in Volume II of the Guild’s Shop Notes.  Highly recommended, but unfortunately the period covered is later than the White Stuff era.

 

Roger

 

 

[wefalck]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:27 PM, Chuck Seiler said:

How about just unbleached titanium?

What is this supposed to be? Titanium pigment is TiO2, i.e. titanium oxide, and that is a stark white. Being a inorganic chemical compound, there is nothing to bleach and it is absolutey lightfast. 

[allanyed]

9 minutes ago, wefalck said:

What is this supposed to be? Titanium pigment is TiO2, i.e. titanium oxide, and that is a stark white. Being a inorganic chemical compound, there is nothing to bleach and it is absolutey lightfast. 

 

Hi Eberhard,

 

It was introduced to artists paints in the 1960s, Unbleached Titanium (pigment index number PW6 or PW6:1) is a shade of yellow-grey that can be described as being like parchment, suede, or sand. As its name and pigment index number suggests, it is closely related to Titanium White. However, its characteristics are very different and the possibilities it offers in color mixing are unlike any other pigment.

 

Allan

[wefalck]

Strange, but then pigment manufacturers sometimes have strange names for their products. I wonder what it is technically. Perhaps it is just ground-up natural titanium ore, rather than the refined product, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide, that is normally used and would apparently also have the code PW6.

[Chuck Seiler]

26 minutes ago, wefalck said:

What is this supposed to be? Titanium pigment is TiO2, i.e. titanium oxide, and that is a stark white. Being a inorganic chemical compound, there is nothing to bleach and it is absolutey lightfast.

I didn't name it, I just reported what was on the tube.

[druxey]

"Unbleached titanium" is simply a marketing name. It was first produced accidentally. A batch of titanium white was slightly contaminated with yellow ochre. Rather than throw it all out, the colorist simply labelled it 'unbeached' and it sold well! So it is now regularly available.