Sternwheeler From the Susquehanna River's Hard Coal Navy by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale

[sheepsail]

On 6/15/2025 at 12:09 PM, wefalck said:

... or you can buy them down to 0.3 modular, but that would be still too coarse for your scale.

Not sure if cuckoo clock bevels are this large.  Some pocket watches use bevels in the time setting section.  Wrist watches use a sliding pinion clutch with a crown wheel.  Sometimes these are beveled.

 

I have a book called Gears for small mechanisms.  Automotive stuff changed everything according to that book.

 

My impression is that bevel  and other gears were pretty much sand cast.  Casting sands were much finer.  I suspect this may have lead like coal mining to an increased rate of silicosis and lung disease.   There is a lot of technology what has been lost.

 

Industrially they would have been hobbed or finished with a shaper.  For model work, one can do the clean up with a file.  Which is how gears were shaped before industrialization.

 

In some ways chain drive makes more sense. Lumber mills used chains to move the logs through the saws.  These were often run by donkey engines.  We think of such chain as bicycle chain.  Pretty easy to make.  Watch fuzzes used such chain that is microscopic in size.  The drive gears can be made with a simple drill press.

 

Tower clocks used both bevel gears and chain.

[Keith Black]

53 minutes ago, sheepsail said:

Not sure if cuckoo clock bevels are this large.  Some pocket watches use bevels in the time setting section.  Wrist watches use a sliding pinion clutch with a crown wheel.  Sometimes these are beveled.

 

I have a book called Gears for small mechanisms.  Automotive stuff changed everything according to that book.

 

My impression is that bevel  and other gears were pretty much sand cast.  Casting sands were much finer.  I suspect this may have lead like coal mining to an increased rate of silicosis and lung disease.   There is a lot of technology what has been lost.

 

Industrially they would have been hobbed or finished with a shaper.  For model work, one can do the clean up with a file.  Which is how gears were shaped before industrialization.

 

In some ways chain drive makes more sense. Lumber mills used chains to move the logs through the saws.  These were often run by donkey engines.  We think of such chain as bicycle chain.  Pretty easy to make.  Watch fuzzes used such chain that is microscopic in size.  The drive gears can be made with a simple drill press.

 

Tower clocks used both bevel gears and chain.

SS, the scale is going to limit how detailed I can make the gears if gears are used.  

[tmj]

eBay has miniature bevel gears. Not sure what scale size your gears would need to be, but 'maybe' eBay would have some around the right size.

[Jim Lad]

Or maybe a model engineering supplier could help.

 

John

[Keith Black]

 Sometimes one finds answers in their own backyard.

 

 John's build is a geared drive shaft system but I'm still playing with the idea of a chain drive. Center driven pitman arms has been eliminated so it's either geared drive shaft or chain and because of the Millersburg ferry photo we know a chain drive was employed and worked. 

Edited Friday at 09:06 PM by Keith Black

[clearway]

If using chain drive on a steam anchor windlass you have two pistons either side of the chain gypsies with a large geared wheel as part of the manual back up - substitute the geared wheel with a drive sprocket and ignore the chain gypsy and warping drums et voila

 

Keith

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, clearway said:

If using chain drive on a steam anchor windlass you have two pistons either side of the chain gypsies with a large geared wheel as part of the manual back up - substitute the geared wheel with a drive sprocket and ignore the chain gypsy and warping drums et voila

 Thank you, Keith.

 

 Because of photographic evidence in the below photo I've determined that this Susquehanna sternwheeler was gear driven. See if you can find Waldo. 

 

 I've got to mark up the below photo with arrows and do a write up on my reasoning which I'll hopefully have done by tomorrow.

 

 

[Keith Black]

 It's going to be a late night waiting up for breaking news so I figured I'd go ahead and go into the reason I think this sternwheeler is gear driven.

 

 All the arrows are in the way of clear viewing so reference the photo in the post above for an unobstructed view. 

 

 Pitman arm driven shafts end right after going through bearing housing as there's no necessity for a shaft collar.

 

 Chain driven shafts are held in the center of the hull because the chain runs over the drive sprocket and then over the idler sprocket mounted on the hull. The chain holds the drive sprocket connected to the wheel shaft in a centered position. 

 

 On gear driven shafts, the wheel gear must be held steady in absolute alignment with the drive gear. If the wheel shaft has any lateral movement there's either too much distance apart from one another resulting in no power to the wheels or too close and the gears were out quickly or even break. The shaft can not have any lateral movement whatsoever. 

 

 The below image components started making sense a couple of weeks ago and I thought I knew what I was seeing but the why of it didn't make sense until today. My reasoning for thinking this is a gear driven system below. 

 

 

 

 A. Vertical support timber.

 

 B. Steel (?) rod anchored to the vertical support timber that holds D secularly in place.

 

 C. Tension adjustment? 

 

 D. Rube Goldberg shaft collar penetrated by rod. It would appear this slips over the end of the wheel shaft with an internal shaft end bearing keeping the    

      wheel shaft from making any lateral movement.  

 

 E. Rod exiting D. 

 

 F. Through Bolt.

 

 G. Through Bolt.

 

 H. Grease cup?

 

 I. Wheel Shaft bearing. 

 

 J. Grease cup or grease nipple? 

 

 K. Rod entering D. 

 

 

 For lack of a better explanation of the above components, the above makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to any of you please explain what you think the purpose of the above components are.

 

   Keith 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:33 AM by Keith Black

[Cathead]

I'm out of my depth here, sadly.

[Paul Le Wol]

Hi Keith, in the 2nd video that you posted in Post 17, it shows a chain driven boat. It doesn't look as heavy duty as the one you are modeling. Maybe the drive depends on the towing capacity.

 

 

 

 

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

I'm out of my depth here, sadly.

 Ain't we both. 

 

50 minutes ago, Paul Le Wol said:

Hi Keith, in the 2nd video that you posted in Post 17, it shows a chain driven boat. It doesn't look as heavy duty as the one you are modeling. Maybe the drive depends on the towing capacity.

 

 Thank you, Paul. The chain driven Millersburg ferry is kinda heavy duty? I fight the desire to make it a chain driven shaft because it's such an easy alternative but that doesn't account for the components listed in my last post. I don't know, maybe I go with chain drive and turn a blind eye though that doesn't seem right. I did read where they reduced the shock to chain driven wheels by offsetting the two wheel halves so the buckets are a tad bit staggered when hitting the water. 

[Glen McGuire]

6 hours ago, Cathead said:

I'm out of my depth here, sadly.

Add one more to that list!  

[tmj]

Make that three, or four, or whatever my current 'clueless' place in line is...

Edited Sunday at 11:12 PM by tmj

[Keith Black]

7 hours ago, Cathead said:

I'm out of my depth here, sadly.

 

56 minutes ago, Glen McGuire said:

Add one more to that list!  

 

5 minutes ago, tmj said:

Make that three, or four, or whatever my current 'clueless' place in line is.

 

 For a second, forget the wheel shaft center/drive. Do you guys agree with just the seeable elements less conjecture? 

[Glen McGuire]

37 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Do you guys agree with just the seeable elements less conjecture? 

Yes.  But I certainly would not make any conclusions based on my opinion!

[tmj]

"I see NOTHINNNNG!... except an old, blurry photo!" 🫤 

[kurtvd19]

I am finally aboard!  Got busy and wasn't until tonight that I thought I wander if Keith has started a new project yet? 

I have some photos of a chain driven stern wheel boat at the National Mississippi River Museum at Dubuque, IA that might shed some light on how the power was transmitted to the wheel.  I hope I can find them.  I do remember that it was a very rough system, but it had operated for a long time.  I had thought of modeling the boat many years ago.

Kurt

 

[tmj]

Is there any reason that this could not be chain driven in the middle, 'between' the two wheels?

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, Glen McGuire said:

Yes.  But I certainly would not make any conclusions based on my opinion!

I value your option greatly, Mr Glen. I do hope you know that.

 

57 minutes ago, tmj said:

"I see NOTHINNNNG!... except an old, blurry photo!" 

23 minutes ago, tmj said:

Is there any reason that this could not be chain driven in the middle, 'between' the two wheels?

 Geez, Tom, that gave me a good laugh. No, there's no reason that the wheel shaft coulden't have been chain driven. 

 

44 minutes ago, kurtvd19 said:

I am finally aboard!  Got busy and wasn't until tonight that I thought I wander if Keith has started a new project yet? 

I have some photos of a chain driven stern wheel boat at the National Mississippi River Museum at Dubuque, IA that might shed some light on how the power was transmitted to the wheel.  I hope I can find them.  I do remember that it was a very rough system, but it had operated for a long time.  I had thought of modeling the boat many years ago

 Thank you for checking in, Kurt. I do hope you can shed some light on this pickle.

[tmj]

16 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Geez, Tom, that gave me a good laugh.

I'm glad you found that question entertaining...

[Keith Black]

24 minutes ago, tmj said:

I'm glad you found that question entertaining...

It wasn't the question I was laughing at, it was the "I see NOTHINNNNG!... except an old, blurry photo!"  I would never laugh at anyone's question.