Venetian Carrack or Cocha by woodrat - FINISHED - 1/64

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, Dick. I was originally thinking of getting an old cotton sheet from an op shop, sufficiently worn to be thin enough to make a sail at 1:50. But silkspan might be a better option. Fortunately I have plenty of time to think about it. There's plenty to do to the ship before it becomes an issue. And yes, I think I get what you mean about the bulging.

 

I wish you every success with your cunning plan for the half deck. Looking forward to seeing it when it's done.

 

Steven

[michael mott]

Dick I have just spent the last hour or so following the last half of your log. I am really impressed by your persistence in getting the sail to look right, you have done a superb job in my view. Now I understand much better those early paintings and illustrations. I shall go back and start at the beginning now.

 

Mark Pearse those chaps in a 6 foot skiff are insane! About stability, there is none....just temporary opposing forces providing some equilibrium But a nice illustration of the effects that Dick was working to achieve.

 

Michael

 

 

[woodrat]

11 hours ago, michael mott said:

 I shall go back and start at the beginning now.

 

 

Michael

 

 

Thanks, Michael. I hope that the hull design makes sense. I think it is reasonably similar to the original sketch in the Zorzi Trombetta manuscript

[michael mott]

Hi Dick, well that took care of my evening. What an amazing amount of time and care you have put into this project.  The comment about it being a thesis is not far off, I have seen lesser work called as such. It would be interesting leaning over your shoulder as you revisit the old drawings, paintings and engravings going from one to another as you determine the reality of another detail of the real ships. Those little aha moments that put the next piece of the puzzle together.

 

Thanks for doing this model and for sharing all the knowledge you have gained so far.

 

Michael

[woodrat]

Thanks, Michael. I fear that a nautical academic would regard my model as a good speculative decorative model and no more. I am awaiting publication of the Black Sea wrecks recently discovered which will change many of our ideas about mediaeval vessels.

 

I have redone the decking of the accommodation in the half deck (which was also used by the crew for access to the main shrouds and mizzen rigging). I have extended the decking out almost to the gunwales (if you can use the term gunwales in this pre-cannonic era) so the crew can now reach and adjust the main shrouds.

the half deck as before

 

the framing extended out beyond the gunwales

I have then installed the mizzen mast . Please note that the rigging of the mizzen lateen sail will follow the "mediterranean" method whereby the sail is led outboard of the shrouds (see Landstrom:The Ship"). The mizzen shrouds will next be hooked up

 

decking completed and mizzen mast installed. Lower blocks in place for shrouds and bitts either side

 

the wedges in place

 

 

More to come soon.

Cheers

Dick

 

 

[druxey]

Dear Dick, you wrote:

 

"I fear that a nautical academic would regard my model as a good speculative decorative model and no more." Yes, there is speculation involved, but it's based on your research and reasoning, so I disagree - it IS more! I think many of us are awaiting the findings in the Black Sea cache with interest. In the meantime, I think you are doing a fine job.

[cog]

On 24/01/2018 at 1:40 PM, druxey said:

Dear Dick, you wrote:

 

"I fear that a nautical academic would regard my model as a good speculative decorative model and no more." Yes, there is speculation involved, but it's based on your research and reasoning, so I disagree - it IS more! I think many of us are awaiting the findings in the Black Sea cache with interest. In the meantime, I think you are doing a fine job.

 

Hear, hear ...

[Louie da fly]

I agree with Druxey and Carl. There's a doctoral thesis in the TAMU records online which consists of a speculative computer reconstruction of a dromon which is certainly no better nor better researched than your own model. I think if you showed this to a knowledgeable nautical academic, he/she could not fail to be impressed with the breadth and depth of research you've undertaken in constructing this model - as I am.

 

Of course, there's a good chance that the Black Sea discoveries will prove some of your conclusions incorrect. This is always the case in research, and doesn't invalidate your work in any way.

 

I'm in the same boat (sorry!). One part of me is dreading the discovery of a complete dromon, with my own model only half completed. The other part of me is looking forward to it with great excitement.

 

Steven 

 

PS: I think this era is exactly the time to be calling them gunwales - this is when they first attached guns to the upper wale, so what could be more appropriate?

Edited January 31, 2018 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

Thanks, Steven. You are right about gunwales. The Beauchamp drawings are about the same date

 

and show the artillery propped on the wale.

Dick 

 

[Louie da fly]

Yes - for a relatively short period (a few decades) before they thought of piercing the sides for artillery.

 

Though "railing pieces" (or swivel guns) stayed in use a lot longer (several were found on the Mary Rose and they were still in use as late as the Endeavour, which had a dozen of them), as far as I know they usually weren't mounted on the gunwales, as they'd get in the way of the bigger calibre guns.

 

Steven 

[woodrat]

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Earlier in this build log I was pessimistic about unravelling mediaeval rigging. I believe i have come a long way toward now somewhat understanding their rigging and the constraints forced upon the sailor of the middle ages. The rigging of the middle ages should not be compared to that of the later centuries as evolution was proceeding in leaps and bounds. Much of what the mediaeval sailor used looks strange and complicated to us. It was however, in essence practical. The rigging of the mizzen mast is a case in point. In contrast to later rigs, the mizzen of the fifteenth century was based on the lateen rigs of previous centuries. The sail, for instance, was deployed outboard of the shrouds. The following is my attempt at depicting this rig.

the mizzenast installed. Note it is a single pole mast, not "built" as was the mainmast

 

the mizzen yard and sail. Note that a single line is used for furling clew and leech

 

 

 

 

 

I have decided that it is not appropriate to have a foremast as it would look naff. The Mataro nao was a two master and was of the same period.

 

More soon

Dick

 

 

 

[JesseLee]

I am constantly impressed with the information you have been able to find. I wish you could put all this in a book!

 

Jesse

[druxey]

Nicely done, Dick. And, I agree with Jesse!

[Mark Pearse]

thanks Dick, very interesting stuff. The space shuttles of their day. One question & one thought:

 

Would the mizzen halyard always be pulling straight downwards, or would the angle of loading vary?

 

When I look at the vangs, I wonder if they were also used to adjust the sheeting angle...in a modern boat to change the shape of the sail the sheeting point is adjustable so you can change the sheeting angle, but you could achieve the same thing by adjusting the angle of the mizzen spar between the forward tackle & the vangs, & flatten the sail or have it full & rounded. Just a thought.

 

Mark

[woodrat]

On 05/02/2018 at 10:54 PM, JesseLee said:

I wish you could put all this in a book

Thanks Jesse and Druxey, this would be possible but I dont have any experience in publishing except in peer review journals. Maybe I would have to self-publish. Would there be a market?

All suggestions welcome.

 

Mark, yes that is my impression too. Having loosened the parrels, the vertical position of the yard is changed with the halyard, the tacks and vang are used to angle the yard and the sheet (which is not yet installed on the photos) adjusts the fullness of the sail. Also, the shrouds are slackened on the lee  side. I would recommend that Landstrom (The Ship) be consulted for his excellent description of the technique used for tacking a lateen sail of the period.

On 06/02/2018 at 4:56 AM, Mark Pearse said:

 

Would the mizzen halyard always be pulling straight downwards, or would the angle of loading vary?

I think so. Some lateeners of this and earlier periods show the top of the mast angled forward to presumably aid the parrels by the halyard pulling them against the mast so they roll better?? Also, with the parrel tackle loosened, having the halyard pulling forward world further loosen up the yard to allow it to move up or down or rotate on the mast. However, most fifteenth century lateen mizzens show the top of the mast as straight. Confusing, isn't it!

 

Dick

Edited February 7, 2018 by woodrat

[druxey]

You could approach SeaWatchBooks or Conway Maritime Press. I don't know how wide a popularity this era would have through.... it's definitely an acquired taste!

[cog]

A book ... !?!? yes, I'm in

[woodrat]

23 hours ago, druxey said:

You could approach SeaWatchBooks or Conway Maritime Press. I don't know how wide a popularity this era would have through.... it's definitely an acquired taste!

Yes, it's a worry. Perhaps this is too obscure a topic to justify a book

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by woodrat

[druxey]

Worth exploring, though. Another line might be a University press. Texas A & M have a very active marine archaeology department, for instance.

[woodrat]

2 hours ago, druxey said:

Worth exploring, though. Another line might be a University press. Texas A & M have a very active marine archaeology department, for instance.

I have sent an email to Seawatch Books and one of the directors of Texas A&M. Lets see what they say.

Dick

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by woodrat

[woodrat]

Substantially finished now. Just decorative work, flags and figurehead. Display case underway.

 

 

Cheers

Dick

[usedtosail]

Just beautiful. Well done.

[druxey]

Congratulations on an outstanding reconstruction, Dick!

[cog]

A truly magnificent build, Dick. I've enjoyed every bit of the journey

[Vivian Galad]

Will always come and scroll through ALL the postings Reading and aborbing the knowledge amassed gere. Increíble work. 

[woodrat]

Thanks, Tom, Druxey, Carl and Vivian. I greatly appreciate the positive comments and all the likes. It keeps the oxytocin levels high. I still have a few things to do such the anchors and some titivating before I seal it away in the case. I am thinking of the next project which may be a 13th or 14th century mediterranean lateener (not a crusader ship, Steven). As well, I must finish the framing of the Gros Ventre which was put on hold because of the carrack build.

Cheers

Dick

[Baker]

well done, Dick.
Beautiful model with a lot of detail.

[JesseLee]

I love it Dick. It has been a joy to follow along with this build. Refreshing to see something a little different. Too often the older vessels of History are forgotten.

 

Jesse

[CaptainSteve]

It was an educational experience following your research and build, Dick. 
Congratulations on a stunning build !!!

[Mark Pearse]

the results with the sails is superb, it shows how much life it gives to a model to have the sails set like that

 

Mark