RiverRat Posted February 25, 2013 #1 Posted February 25, 2013 i am about to rig a pair of cannons in the cabin before I close it up, and want to know how much breeching rope to provide. That is, how far back do the breechings allow the cannon/truck to recoil backwards? How much space is typically left between the muzzle and the port opening to allow cleaning/re-loading? Thanks! Brian Quote "Give you joy!" Current Build: RATTLESNAKE 1:64 POB (Mamoli) Kits on hand: "Lexington", Mamoli: "Robert E. Lee", Scientific Scratch to do: "Fannie Dugan", 1870s Sidewheeler Steamboat
Blue Ensign Posted February 25, 2013 #2 Posted February 25, 2013 Hi Brian, As a rule of thumb, the breeching would be around three times the length of the gun barrel. Recoil distance was limited by the center line obstructions on the deck, so there was not a lot of space bewteen the muzzle and the port with the gun run in. In more restricted places such as cabins a shorter barrel length gun was sometimes used, but partition panelling was usually struck down when working the guns. With breechings on a model there should be obvious slack if the gun is run out, but the exact amount is probably best left to your eye given the particular set up on your model. B.E. mtaylor 1 Quote Current Build: Medway-longboat-1742-by-blue-ensign-½”-scale Completed builds: HMS Indefatigable-1794-by-blue-ensign-vanguard-models-1:64-scale HMS Sphinx 1775 by Blue Ensign. 1:64 scale - Vanguard Models Queen-Anne-Royal-Barge-circa-1700-by-Blue-Ensign Fifie fishing boat Lady Eleanor Muirneag-1903-–-a-scottish-zulu-fishing-boat-164-scale-based-on-the-vanguard-models-zulu-kit/ HM Cutter Alert 1777 HM Cutter Cheerful 1806 18th-century-English-longboat-by-Blue-Ensign-ms-148-scale/ 18thc English Pinnace by Blue Ensign-Model-Shipways-1:24 scale/ HMS-Pegasus-by-Blue-Ensign-finished-Victory-Models-1:64-scale/ Heller Seventy-four 1:150 scale - modified Le Superbe/Le Glorieux kit after Boudriot, waterline setting with sails. The schooner Pickle, Jotika pob kit 1:64 scale, my interpretation.
RiverRat Posted February 25, 2013 Author #3 Posted February 25, 2013 Thanks for the tips. I had found some drawings from the 'net for guidelines, but they're someone's drawings and not necessarily correct. Brian Quote "Give you joy!" Current Build: RATTLESNAKE 1:64 POB (Mamoli) Kits on hand: "Lexington", Mamoli: "Robert E. Lee", Scientific Scratch to do: "Fannie Dugan", 1870s Sidewheeler Steamboat
Jim Lad Posted February 25, 2013 #4 Posted February 25, 2013 This contemporary illustration might be helpful, Brian. John BANYAN, kenr, garym and 7 others 10 Quote
Garward Posted February 25, 2013 #5 Posted February 25, 2013 This contemporary illustration might be helpful, Brian. John scan0001 Standard e-mail view.jpg Hi, John, you won't prompt, from where this very evident illustration? Quote Best regards, Garward Is under construction Montanes Ready models Golden Star Corsair San Francisco II Bronze 24-pdr canone Le Fleuron Bronze 24-pdr canone Le Fleuron (second version)
Garward Posted February 26, 2013 #7 Posted February 26, 2013 Many thanks for the help, John! Quote Best regards, Garward Is under construction Montanes Ready models Golden Star Corsair San Francisco II Bronze 24-pdr canone Le Fleuron Bronze 24-pdr canone Le Fleuron (second version)
popeye2sea Posted June 2, 2013 #8 Posted June 2, 2013 What was the size of a typical breeching rope? I have 8, 18, and 24 pdrs on my Soleil Royal. I am assuming I can use the same size for the 18's and 24's. And I will scale down accordingly for the 8pdr. Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci
russ Posted June 2, 2013 #9 Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) The best information I have is for British guns for the early 19th century. The Naval Pocket Gunner of 1814 says the breechings for 24s were 6 1/2", for 18s 5 1/2", and 9s were 4 1/2". This is circumference. Russ Edited June 2, 2013 by russ Beef Wellington 1 Quote T'aint a hobby if you hurry Completed projects Cross section model by Russ 1/48 scale Biloxi schooner model restoration 1/24 scale Biloxi oyster skiff 1/24 scale Biloxi schooner 1/48 scale POB Current project Biloxi lugger Captain Roy 1/48 scale POB
popeye2sea Posted June 2, 2013 #10 Posted June 2, 2013 Thanks Russ Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci
Rich_engr Posted June 28, 2013 #11 Posted June 28, 2013 Is there a similar illustration for 12 pounder caronnades? I am wondering how far inboard the upper slides go when loading or during recoil? I already made the breech lines for my guns (MS Niagara- see the last page of my build log), but I think I made them a bit too short. My thinking was when they are fully pulled back for loading, the edge of the upper slide is even with the lower carriage. If the top slide overhangs the carriage, then the lines will need to be longer. I might have to redo all 18 of them if my assumption was incorrect (probably set me back a week or so).... Quote
kenr Posted June 28, 2013 #12 Posted June 28, 2013 Hi Rich I will be most interested to see what conclusions you come to . I,m getting close to that stage on my Niagara Regards Ken Quote Under construction US Brig Niagara Completed HMB Endeavour - Caldercraft
Rich_engr Posted June 28, 2013 #13 Posted June 28, 2013 Ken- thanks. Keep checking- once I get it "right" there'll be tons of pictures up. I'm anxious to press ahead and get them rigged, but it just doesn't look quite right since they have this ugly-looking sigma shape to them (when looking from the side)... Course, if I have to redo them, it shouldn't take that long (luckily I have tons of extra rope I made for the breech lines). Quote
CPS_skybolt Posted November 12, 2014 #14 Posted November 12, 2014 Thanks Russ. I am installing the 24 pounders on the BlueJacket USS Constitution and was wondering what size rope to use. Quote
CPS_skybolt Posted November 12, 2014 #15 Posted November 12, 2014 Thanks Blue Ensign for the info on the breeching rope. Quote
russ Posted November 12, 2014 #16 Posted November 12, 2014 See my post above for the circumference on the breechings for 24 pounders. If you need the scale size, it would be about.021" diameter for your model. Russ Quote T'aint a hobby if you hurry Completed projects Cross section model by Russ 1/48 scale Biloxi schooner model restoration 1/24 scale Biloxi oyster skiff 1/24 scale Biloxi schooner 1/48 scale POB Current project Biloxi lugger Captain Roy 1/48 scale POB
allanyed Posted November 14, 2014 #17 Posted November 14, 2014 Jim, Can you tell us the ship and cannon size in the contemporary illustration? I doubt that the Rattlesnake would have had cannon large enough to use double blocks in the tackle, so Brian, be aware. That is a great drawing BTW, thanks for sharing. Allan Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU
captain.jerry Posted May 11, 2015 #18 Posted May 11, 2015 This is an old thread but it is exactly what I was looking for. It seems that the breech line needs to allow the muzzle to come inboard of the bulwarks by about a foot. The long handles of the cleaning and tamping tools can be led out through the gunport and then fed back down the barrel, but about a foot would be necessary to load the charge and ball. This is also worth noting regarding the location of the inhaul deck ring as shown on the center gun. While studying this diagram, another question came up as regards the outhaul tackle which was used to haul the carriage back into firing position. Was that tackle left attached to the ring bolts on the carriage when it was fired? I would think not! I cannot believe that the outhaul line would lead fairly and cleanly through the blocks. If a block on either side were to foul during recoil, either the gun would be jerked out of position, or the tackle would fail. And even assuming the line were able to run cleanly, I pity the sailor whose leg or foot was snagged as the line ran out. I believe that the block at the carriage end was rigged with a hook which would be liffted out of the ringbolt after the gun was hauled out and the re-hooked after the gun was fired. I guess that another possibility is that the outhaul tack was used to snub the recoil and that the breach line was only a backup. The inhaul tackle would have to be used to bring the gun inboard for reloading. I think I will go with the first choice and be sure that outhaul tackle will be rigged with hooks. Jerry Quote You will never know if you can do something until you try... and even then you may not be sure.
allanyed Posted May 14, 2015 #19 Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Jerry, Before the introduction of train tackle, the running (out) tackles were unhooked and used as train tackle when needed. The use of the tackle as train tackle depended on whether the guns were on the lee or windward side. The hooks facilitated this action. When separate train tackle came into use, it would be used as necessary to hold the leeward guns in place during reloading so the running tackle was no longer needed for this purpose. At this point, the running tackle hooks were often moused so they could not be easily unhooked. This means they were maintained in place when the guns were fired, not unhooked. An interesting note is that the breech was not in a straight line, but dropped down to a ring on the carriage that was lower than the ring on the bulwark. This added a lot of friction to slow the recoil. The above is from Volume II of Caruana's English Sea Ordnance. Allan Edited May 19, 2015 by allanyed dafi, mtaylor, captain.jerry and 1 other 4 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU
captain.jerry Posted May 14, 2015 #20 Posted May 14, 2015 Thanks for the response, Alan. I have thought the having the breech cable pass through the ring on the carriage was to keep the breech end of the barrel down on the carriage. I would think that the quoin, which was held in place by the weight and friction of the barrel, would be thrown willy nilly if the gun bucked off of the deck. Keeping the gun carriage in contact would also help in snubbing the recoil as you say. I have never seen a gun fired with full charge and with a real cannon ball. All of the demonstrations that I have seen are lightly loaded, just to make a flash, boom, and smoke display. The demonstrations show almost no recoil. I have always wondered if a real shot in action caused the gun to recoil hard against the breech cable. Jerry dafi 1 Quote You will never know if you can do something until you try... and even then you may not be sure.
dafi Posted May 14, 2015 #21 Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Here is a picture of a gun run in being loaded :-) RE: ... to Victory and beyond! ... some thought about the run out and secured guns ... RE: ... to Victory and beyond! ... and some discussion about a carronade sliding backwards: RE: Carronaden XXXDAn PS: Do not mind the preventer breeching lines on the 32 pounders as seen on todays Vic and described by Goodwin. So far the discussion did not reveal any robust prooves for it ... PPS: Anybody having an idea? Edited May 14, 2015 by dafi robin b and Canute 2 Quote To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/ See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/ Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits. http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html
druxey Posted May 14, 2015 #22 Posted May 14, 2015 Alla and Jerry: you are both correct. The indirect run of the breeching both added friction during recoil as well as prevented 'bucking' of the piece. dafi 1 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv
mtaylor Posted May 14, 2015 #23 Posted May 14, 2015 Jerry, There's a video on Youtube of live fire at the Niagara museum where they are firing at mockup using full load. There's also another one of , I think it's a Vasa cannon, live firing at a hull mockup. Ah.... Niagara museum video: https://youtu.be/U6foV4lmL4A and that Wasa... http://www.thelocal.se/20141022/iconic-vasa-ship-fires-biggest There's more cannon fire here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4503-live-fire-when-the-gunz-go-boooooom/ Canute and dafi 2 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
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