Louie da fly
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Everything posted by Louie da fly
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Thanks, Druxey. I'm not terribly happy with the joints between the sternpost and the 'tail' - in fact I'm thinking of making them again - the current pieces were cut a little wrongly and so I can't make a joint that will enable them to follow the curve I want in the tail. And if I do that, perhaps I'll have another try at the keel as well - it still bows downward a little in the middle and it's not the same colour all the way along its length. Maybe I can recycle it to make the keelson. I know PVA glue works best when the joint is clamped together. Do you clamp your scarph joints? I was thinking of using an elastic band but I don't trust them much - they tend to mis-align things too easily. Or perhaps I could wrap the joint in thread while it dries? Any advice gratefully received. Best, Steven -
Well, here are the photos as of Sunday afternoon. I've roughly shaped one half of the plug - more still to be done; the hard bit, getting it the same shape as the cross-sections say it should be. I learnt something - don't use an electric planer to "just trim a bit off the stern" - it takes great bites out of the wood and I ended up losing a fair bit of the 'tail'. So I've added some builder's filler to make it up to shape again. And from now on I only use the sander. Next weekend I'll sand it properly to shape on one side and then begin on the other half if I have time. I still have to get the scarph joint between the sternpost and the 'tail' shaped properly - it's giving me some problems getting it all to mesh precisely and have the tail go up at the right angle. I think I'll have to make some kind of jig to hold it all while I'm gluing the keel, stempost, sternpost and tail pieces together. Does anyone have any advice for doing this successfully? I have to admit I'm not looking forward to it - too much chance of messing up after all that work. Maybe I should be gluing one joint at a time? I don't know. Steven
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That looks so good, Dick. She's really progressing well. Steven
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Thanks, Druxey. I've done a bit more but now the weekend is over, it's back to work for another week. I'll try to put up some update photos this evening, then it'll be a gap till next weekend. Carl, I don't think there was any Viking influence on Byzantine ship design -If anything it'd be the other way. But I really think it's just a case of convergent evolution. Steven
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This is a beautiful piece of work, Dan. I've only just come on board and I'm very impressed by the precision of the craftsmanship and the detail. And the cutaways are a lovely touch. Steven
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That's not surprising, Carl. Any ship that's to be rowed with speed as its objective is likely to have pretty much the same kind of shape - long and narrow. One thing I thought was interesting is the gentle curve of the outline (seen from above). Apparently Renaissance and Ancient galleys had pretty much straight, parallel sides. But the Byzantine galleys found at Yenikapi definitely swelled gently outwards from both ends toward the centre, rather like the Viking ships of the same period. Steven
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Just cut the lifts for the plug. As I really don't have much confidence that I'd be able to get both sides the same by eye, I've screwed together the lifts for one side and I'll smooth this side off, using the sections I've cut out of cardboard to check that I've got the shape right as I go. Once I'm happy with this side, I'll pull it apart again and use it as a template to modify the lifts of the other side. That way I've got the best chance of getting the shape of the hull symmetrical. Wish me luck!
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A beautiful build of a beautiful vessel. What more can I say? Steven
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Druxey, the frames for my dromon will be a bit over double the thickness in both dimensions compared with yours. Do you think your 'wet bending' technique would work for them as well, or should I use heat as well? Steven
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That makes a lot of sense, Dick. I think the "combat" idea is more wishful thinking than based on any sort of evidence. Steven
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Nice work, Dick (as usual). Landstro"m's book states that the grapnel was for grappling other ships in battle, but I don't know that this was based on anything other than supposition. However, the Anthony Roll depiction of the Great Harry at the very least, shows her with not only a grapnel on a chain hanging on the bowsprit, but also double-hooked yard arms. This was after all a time of transition from boarding and hand-to-hand fighting to longer distance combat with the big guns. So perhaps the grapnel is indeed for grappling other ships. Steven PS: Where did you get that lovely piece of chain?
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Such a beautiful vessel and so expertly put together. You're an inspiration to us all, Druxey. Steven
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Thanks, Druxey. As far as I can see the grain is pretty straight, and I tried to choose as straight a grain as I could find, but I agree it will go where it wants to go. I think I'll pin it to my plug the same way you did with yours - it looks like a very good way to go. Mark, it's European plane wood, the same as the keels of several of the Yenikapi galeai were made from. I wanted to keep it as close as possible to the original; the other Yenikapi galeai had oak keels and I could have used that instead, but I've never worked with plane and I wanted to see how it went. Fortunately, Ballarat has street trees of both kinds (as well as ash, elm and other European varieties introduced by the settlers in the 19th century) and I'm able to get a lot of timber from loppings. By the way, the jig seems to have worked pretty well. I may have to do a bit of final tweaking, but I'm pretty happy with the result. Next I'll tidy up my scarph joints between keel and the stem and sternposts, and cut out the pieces for the plug. I'm looking forward to it Steven
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A very ad hoc jig for straightening the keel in two dimensions at once. A nail at each end and one in the middle to bend the keel around in a horizontal direction, plus a sheet of glass to lift each end of the keel and a piece of wood to weigh it down in the middle. We'll see if it works . . . Steven
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I've been trying to get the keel straight - as it's only 3mm (1/8") square and 490mm (19.3") long there's ample opportunity for it to go all bendy. It's not too bad, but when I tried correcting the sideways bowing by pouring boiling water on it, raising the ends a bit and weighing down the centre, the sideways curve corrected but the keel hogged downwards instead! And when I corrected the hogging (see picture), the sideways curve re-appeared. So, I think I need to put together some sort of jig to simultaneously correct both faults. I've got some ideas and I'll see if they work. In the meantime, I've worked out the shapes I need for the layers of the plug and I'll be cutting these out and putting them together. Steven
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I'll give that some thought, Druxey. But as I see it, the extra work cutting the grooves might pay off in avoiding extra fiddling around trying to put the intermediate frames exactly in place. The barge is certainly very lightly built. (In comparison, the keels of the Yenikapi galeai are 6" square and the frames vary between 50 and 60mm square (2'-2.4"). But they have a fairly comprehensive system of wales and stringers to prevent hogging). I'm going to have to be careful to cut the planks exactly to prevent internal stresses as you mention above - this goes against my normal, rather slapdash approach to things (near enough is good enough). I think it's going to be quite an education in patience and precision for me. But as mtaylor says - the shipwright is slow but the wood is patient . . . Steven
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Thanks for the advice, Druxey. It's very much appreciated. I was thinking I'd have to do something like this, and I believe cutting grooves is the way I'll have to go - apart from any other considerations, the grooves should help hold the frames in place securely. But I've worked out that with a vessel about 60 cm ( 2 feet) long and frames about 5mm (1/5") apart, I'll need to cut something like 120 grooves. Dromai were incredibly lightly built - like a dinghy, but 90 feet long! Well, it should teach me patience. Your work is just phenomenal. If I can do half as well I'll be over the moon. Steven
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Thanks everybody for all the 'likes', and especially to Dick and Druxey for the kind advice on the best way to plank the ship and put in the frames. I'm still feeling my way with all this - and recessing the frames might be the way to go. Druxey, I take on board your comment about stabilizing the keel - it's been one of my major concerns. Dick, yes the Yenikapi galleys do have keelsons. It's going to be important because of the unusual method of framing in Byzantine ships - alternating frames starting from the keel with frames that crossed it. They're very close together because they're so light, so I'll have my work cut out for me. It's going to be like building a 30 metre longboat. I'm trying to approximate as closely as possible the timbers used on the original Yenikapi galleys, to get a (very) rough idea of how much one of these things would have weighed. The keels and frames seem mostly to be made of oak or of European plane and the planking is of black pine. There's ample oak and plane trees here in Ballarat and I follow the council workers around when they lop the street trees. So the keel, stempost and sternpost are of plane which I picked up off the side of the road, and I'll make the frames of it too. I can't get black pine, so I'll probably fudge it with radiata - cheap and easily available here. Steven
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Yes, I've finally got moving after a long period of doing nothing (life getting in the way) and cut my first pieces of wood - see here. I'm pretty happy with the result, though it's very early days yet. Steven
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Well, I’m finally back onto the dromon after a lot of waffling about trying to work out how best to build it. The true shape of a dromon’s hull is unknown and my build will be based on the theoretical reconstruction in Professor John Pryor’s book Age of the Dromon, plus very valuable insights from the wrecked galleys found at Yenikapi in Istanbul. These vessels are not dromai but the smaller lighter galeai, and I’ve extrapolated from these to get the shape of the larger vessel. It will evolve very much by trial and error. The Yenikapi galleys were incredibly lightly built – necessary when ships have to be powered by human muscle. Though they were about 30 metres (90 feet) long, their keels are made of timbers only 150mmx150mm (6”x6”), and the planks are only 20-30mm (3/4”-1.2”) thick. I’ve finally decided to build it plank on frame, but as the planks are going to be 0.5mm (1/50 inch) thick and the frames 1mm (1/25 inch) square, I’ll build it around a plug, which I’ll then remove and insert the frames within the hull. Otherwise I’m likely to smash the planking when I pick up the ship to work on it. Dromons came at a time when ships were in transition from being built planking first to frame-first, so I’m sort of following in their footsteps. I’ve been inspired by Druxey building his Greenwich barge around a plug, which has given me lots of ideas for my own build ( though I don’t think I’ll ever approach his quality of work). I’d already started making a plug out of a single piece of pine, but realised I had no idea how to get the two sides of the hull symmetrical. Taking a leaf out of Druxey’s book I’m going to make a new plug out of narrow pieces laminated together horizontally, mirrored each side of the keel, which should pretty much solve that problem. Unfortunately though the keels of the Yenikapi galleys have been found the stemposts and sternposts weren’t recovered, so I’ve had to base mine on contemporary pictures. I’ve made these, along with the keel, which is 3mmx3mm (1/8” square) in the model. A keel this thin is very given to warping and I found when I’d made mine it was a bit bowed sideways. I tried putting it in boiling water and then between two sheets of glass, but though that helped reduce the bow, it also made the keel hog, so I’ll have to try another tack – steaming and clamping. Once that’s done I’ll be putting the plug together and shaping it.
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Druxey, your work is inspirational. I'd been planning to use a removable plug when building my dromon, but your build log has already solved several problems I'd been struggling with before I even started; for example I'd been wondering how to get the two sides identical - your solution of building up the two halves of the plug as separate mirrored units is simple and elegant. Same with the gesso and beeswax. I'll be sure to use these in my own build. I hope the plug technique works as well with carvel as with clinker construction. Many thanks. Steven
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Nice to see you back again, Dick. Excellent work as usual. You're producing a real gem. Steven
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That's a nice job. Looking forward to seeing progress on this build. Steven
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I've decided I'll have to strip most of the planking off after all. I'd hoped to keep a lot of it and just change the frames, but I got a lot of splitting when I was separating the old frames from the planking and it looks like I'll just have to discard most the old stuff and re-do it. I should be able to keep the forecastle, though, as it won't be affected by the changes. I've roughed out the new frames in balsa, as the original frames were. Still have to trim them down smooth. I realize they look pretty rough, but they'll be invisible and they'll do the job. As I mentioned above, this project is basically to restore the ship to the way it was when I built it - sort of a snapshot in time - and at the time I wasn't all that careful with stuff you wouldn't be able to see . When I start the next project I'll be taking much more care to get everything precise. Below are pics of the ship as it is at the moment. I've still got to get the rest of the planking off that needs to be replaced, then I need to get some veneer that matches the original (the suppliers are currently off on Christmas holidays), and get started on fixing her up properly. Kees, though the information is somewhat limited, there's far more out there than you might think, in archaeological finds, contemporary illustrations and academic papers. Have a look at Woodrat's excellent nave tonda thread to see what I mean. Steven
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