10th-11th century Byzantine dromon by Louie da fly - FINISHED - 1:50

[Roger Pellett]

Re:  Hull Stiffness

 

The traditional Mediterranean system of building a hull involved planking laid edge to edge with mortises and tenions locking adjacent strakes together.  This required immense labor by highly skilled artisans, but allowed construction of a long, narrow light weight hull.  This would have reduced if not eliminated the need for a continuously planked deck as a structural member.  Even so, I doubt if these vessels enjoyed a long life.

 

Roger

[Mark Pearse]

Hi Steven

 

was it usual for the two sails to be the same size as each other? I feel the forward sail (for the reduced sail plan) looks large given where it sits on the overall hull. However the sail/hull relationship is probably only important if a boat hopes to sail into the breeze rather than just across or with it. Do we know if they used sails to go into the wind?

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, Druxey. I certainly hope so - it's really all I have to go on.  Still, who's going to tell me I'm wrong? Ah, for a time machine . . .

 

Steven

Edited October 12, 2018 by Louie da fly

[MESSIS]

she is very beautifull!

 

well done Steven

Edited October 13, 2018 by MESSIS

[Louie da fly]

Thanks everybody for the likes and the comments.

 

Roger, ancient Mediterranean ships were certainly built this way, but the the first millenium AD saw a transition between tenon and framed construction and by the time of this dromon shipbuilding had almost completely evolved to a fully framed method with very few or even no tenons between planks. I'm pretty sure none of the Yenikapi galleys had any tenons at all.

 

Mark, in Age of the Dromon Professor Pryor states (based on 12th century Sicilian galleys) that the fore was the "main" sail and the "middle" was smaller. On the other hand, the only Byzantine picture of two-masted galleys (from the late 9th century - about 200 years before mine) shows the foremast smaller than the "middle" mast. [Edit: Though evolution did occur in Byzantine ship design, it was pretty slow. The Yenikapi galleys span several centuries but have only minor variations between them. Which leads me to believe the picture below is probably almost as appropriate for the 11th century as for the 9th.]

 

 

However, as Prof Pryor says, that may be artistic licence - perhaps an attempt to fit the picture into a restricted space on a page.  

 

In earlier posts, particularly those of June 21-24 I've outlined my reasoning for the masts and yards. There's very little out there, either pictorial or written, and absolutely nothing in the archaeological record. According the the theory, I've got a pretty good relationship between the sails, with the "combined centre of effort" of the sails a little forward of the centre of resistance of the hull. Ideally it should be pretty much directly above, but a little forward is pretty ok too. And no, the galleys were pretty much confined to sailing before the wind because a heel of more than 10 degrees would have swamped them.

 

Messis, thanks very much for the compliment.

 

Steven  

Edited October 17, 2018 by Louie da fly

[Louie da fly]

I've decided to go with the shorter masts and yards. I've made six masts overall - the first two taken directly from Age of the Dromon which I decided were wrong, then the longer ones, which looked too long. Because I didn't want to shorten those ones to find out if shorter ones looked better I then had to make two new ones. And I've ended up with two that will actually go into the ship.

 

Here's the second (or sixth!) mast under construction.

 

I've shamelessly copied the concave joint of the mainyard of Woodrat's Cocca/Nave Tonda to join the two spars of each yard. 

 

The're glued together but I've yet to add rope lashings.

 

Steven

Edited October 17, 2018 by Louie da fly

[GrandpaPhil]

Looking good!  Keep at it!

[cog]

I would expect some dowels to be used against lateral movement, Steven., although, at this scale, I presume, they'll hardly be visible. Thorough job on the yards

[md1400cs]

Steven,

 

Ooops - sorry - I have been following silently- not fair- for your superb build. I, as many others, so appreciate this log.

So enjoy your work.

 

Sincerely,

[Louie da fly]

Finally making a start on the superstructure. There are two wooden "castles" amidships (one each side) and a triangular fortified wooden forecastle, all of which I've designed to have a set of four arches supporting them, standing on round posts. You can see the idea in this cardboard mock-up.

 

 

As all the sets of arches (I suppose I should really call them arcades) are identical, I decided to try something a little different, and make all of them from a single block of wood and then saw them apart.

 

I'm sure I took photos of the block with just the concave side  of the arches cut and smoothed, but I must have deleted them.

I discovered it's a very bad idea to use a file on something this delicate. SNAP! Had to glue it back together before I could proceed.





One arcade separated from the others. Just two more cuts to do, then I can get onto smoothing them off. I used a fine saw-blade, broken short, and worked VERY slowly and carefully cutting them apart. I didn't want to break them again. Definitely an education.

And I've just made a start on the "hoops" for the arched awning at the prymne or poop deck.

I'm doing six of them; this is the first. There'll be "stringers" running between them (inside the arches) to keep them all the same shape. There'll be a pair of posts supporting each of these "hoops".

 

 

Steven

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Louie da fly

[Baker]

Indeed, a very delicate work.
Am already curious about the result.

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, Patrick.  I currently have nightmares about the rotten thing breaking just as I'm about to finish, after all that work . . .

 

And thank you also to Michael for the kind comment, and to Carl for the suggestion (but I don't think I'll put dowels in - you're right - the scale is too small, and they wouldn't be visible).

 

Thanks also to everybody for the likes. The support and encouragement of my fellow modellers is greatly valued, especially on the (fortunately rare) occasions when everything seems to be going wrong and (you all know the feeling) you just want to toss it in the scrap bin and find another hobby.

 

Steven 

[BANYAN]

Nice progress Steven; those arcades look good.  It appears you have made best use of the grain direction to provide a little strength.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Thanks everybody for the likes.

 

Pat, actually the grain ran that way because in the bit of wood I had available. That it gave a bit of strength was fortuitous.

 

HOWEVER, I really wouldn't recommend this technique. It would have been far less work, worry and grief if I'd just made a template and cut four arcades from a sheet of wood 1mm thick. Slitting the four apart from a single block was a real hassle. Perhaps if I'd had a more professional workshop it might have worked better - but then again perhaps not. The major problem was that the piece of fretsaw blade I used to cut the arcades apart kept wandering and cutting in where it wasn't wanted, and there seemed to be very little I could do about it.

 

See the dodgy cut lines in the pictures below. 

 

 

 

I haven't yet decided whether they're worth keeping or whether I should just start again. After all that work I'd be reluctant to throw them away, but it might be the best thing to do. But first I'll see if I can salvage them. If I can get them thick enough, with smooth faces to the outside, they may be worth it.

 

Certainly, the idea I had to make them all identical (based on what others on the forum have done in making multiple blocks) didn't really work very well. There was quite a bit of variation between them anyway, so the major purpose for the technique wasn't achieved.

 

I didn't really gain anything from the experiment except the experience of doing it and the knowledge it's not a very good method. Perhaps that's worthwhile enough in its own right 😥. 

 

Steven 

[goetzi73]

Hi Steven,

the pieces don't look that awful as you might think. Anyway you have to like it, that's all that counts. Some idea for further progress. Glue the pieces to a piece of wood, using SMALL amounts of CA. That should faciliate sanding them. Afterwards apply acetone to dissolve the CA.

 

Götz

[usedtosail]

Another idea Steven would be to glue up four pieces of wood using wood glue, shape them like you did the solid piece, then soak them in Isopropyl Alcohol to separate them. Hopefully the pieces you already made can be cleaned up to your satisfaction, though.

[Mark Pearse]

I think they will clean up well, & agree with Gotz that something to help hold them is a good approach for delicate flat objects. Another idea is to put some rubber contact glue onto the face of a flat piece of wood & let it dry fully. The dried glue might be enough to hold the arcade pieces gently & safely while being sanded. 

Mark

[Louie da fly]

Thanks Götz, Tom and Mark for the suggestions. Tom, your idea is what I should have done. Well, a lesson for next time . . . 

 

Steven

[BANYAN]

Hi Steven, there was a great show on Fetch (Discovery I think) tonight on Byzantine wrecks in the Black Sea tonight; but, no dromons I think.  Can't be sure as a I missed a lot as I did not associate it with this type of doco as it was titles Bob Ballard Special or the like.  May be worth a look?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Pat, thanks for the info.  I don't have Discovery channel but I would like to have seen it (though I've often found Discovery shows to be disappointing - a lot of puff and not much fact. However, one can always hope it's an exception to that rule, enlightening and full of fascinating information). 

 

Has anyone else seen the program? Probably too much to hope they've found a dromon . . .😉

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

I haven't posted for quite a while. Been doing fiddly stuff, which is now to a point worth posting.

 

I've made the arches for the stern awning over the poop. Following advice by usedtosail I glued thin layers of wood together, shaped them and then separated them with isopropyl alcohol.

 

Druxey, this stuff is MUCH better than metho for dissolving PVA (unfortunately 😠 - 75ml cost something over 5 bucks; metho is about $1.50 for a litre. There's no justice in the world).

 

I used planetree wood for these and the arcades, as I'd used it for the framing and keel as in the original vessels; next time I make something this delicate I'll be using pearwood - planewood's grain is just too coarse and caused me lots of trouble with splitting and breakage. 

 

Using filler made from PVA and sawdust, I've filled the gaps in the arcades. 

 

and filed them smooth.

 

 

One of the corner arches split as I was working on it and had to be repaired. It was then cut and sanded to shape (sorry - no photo of completed arch). 

 

The arcades were bevelled and smoothed off.

 

 

The suspended decks for the xylocastra (wooden castles) have been made;

 

 

 

and joined to the arcades.

 

When it's finished it should look something like this:

 

I've also been working on the new shorter foremast; using an electric drill as a lathe helps but isn't completely satisfactory - too much wobble at the unsecured end. But cleaning up with a series of files of different roughness has got it to shape. (The photo was staged - I'd need three hands to take a photo of it in motion.)

 

That's all for now.

 

Steven

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Louie da fly

[goetzi73]

It looks really good Steven. It's a pity that isoprop is that expensive over there. Should be really cheap, as it is standard stuff for desinfection.

 

Looking forward to see the completed castle.

 

Götz

[Baker]

Beautifully done Steven

Where I work, Iso propyl alcohol "IPA" is stored in a tank of about 90000 liters....

 

 

 

[BANYAN]

Looking good Steve.  I found buying the Isop..  cheaper in bulk at Bunnings - although I lost out on all my savings by buying other stuff  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Yeah, I got mine from Woolies. On the other hand, I've found I can re-use it time and again, so by the time it's all used up it should have justified the 5 bucks outlay.

 

Pat, there's a sign up in the local Men's shed - "My only fear is that when I die, my wife will sell all my tools for what I told her I paid for them . . ."

 

Steven 

[Louie da fly]

Some photos I omitted to include in the last post but one, showing the procedure used in making the arches for the awning over the poop. 

 

The first photos show one set of blanks glued together and cut roughly to shape, plus a set formed into half-arches 

 

 

 

And the half-arches separated ready for fine shaping.

The last photo (same as in post #561 above) shows the half-arches dry fitted to make full arches.

Steven

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Louie da fly

[BANYAN]

That technique for the arches worked out well Steven.  Love the sign  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

2 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Love the sign  

 

Yes, my wife thought it was hilarious, too.

 

Steven

[usedtosail]

I am glad that worked for you Lou. I love that sign too but can't show it to my wife, ha ha. The arches look great.

[Louie da fly]

And here is the next step in the making of the xylokastra.

 

Supporting columns for the arcades shaped from bamboo skewer, using an electric drill as a lathe

Capitals made for the columns

Capitals attached to the columns

and then attached to the arcade

Here's one of the xylokastra with all the columns in place. Butt joints throughout - mainly because I couldn't think of a sufficiently precise way of fixing everything at right angles and in the proper place.

 

I tried drilling short holes in the lower side of the capitals to act as mortices to take tenons at the tops of the columns,

but I just couldn't do it precisely enough, and had to throw them away and start again. However, the PVA glue of the butt joints is  slightly flexible, so I can adjust the angles of the columns until everything is square. 

 

And here are the two xylokastra with all columns in place.

Next is to make their "wooden walls" and add the raised decking for marines to stand on.

 

Steven

Edited November 28, 2018 by Louie da fly