USS Tennessee 1869 by Keith Black - scale 1:120 - Wood Hull Screw Frigate - ex Madawaska 1865

[Javelin]

Gorgeous model Keith, we don't get nearly enough models to see of this type of vessel! 

I also noticed a great improvement in your way of taking pictures throughout your build. 

[Keith Black]

43 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

how flexible is your running rigging line

 It's not flexible enough considering that the coil from top to bottom needs to be about 0.15 to 0.20 inches. A coil that small using the thread size I'm using doesn't what to hang in a natural fashion like that in the photo below.

 

 Rob, while I've got you on the phone......this morning I was digging around for info regarding the screw sloop USS Essex, she was built by Donald McKay. I was surprised to read that as I didn't know that Mr McKay was involved not only in clippers but also ships of war.  

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Essex_(1874)

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Keith Black

[wefalck]

I found the best way to have coils hanging in a 'natural' way is to soak them in diluted varnish and to coerce them into the desired shape with some suitable tools:

One can always soften the coil with a drop of solvent and try again, if the coil is not fully cooperative.

 

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 It's not flexible enough considering that the coil from top to bottom needs to be about 0.15 to 0.20 inches. A coil that small using the thread size I'm using doesn't what to hang in a natural fashion like that in the photo below.

 

 Rob, while I've got you on the phone......this morning I was digging around for info regarding the screw sloop USS Essex, she was built by Donald McKay. I was surprised to read that as I didn't know that Mr McKay was involved not only in clippers but also ships of war.  

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Essex_(1874)

 

Yeah ……I’d get a more pliable thread for your rope coils.  
A Technique I use sometimes is to lay down  a pool of wood glue……. Smear it out, then take your line and coil it up in the glue…..forming a nice little coil of rope.   Then using a pic….you lift up the glue soaked coil (dabbing off the excess) and lay it over the pin on the rail.   Once done, use the pic to pull it down into shape.  Let it dry…..it dries clean.    
 

There you go

 

Rob

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by rwiederrich

[FriedClams]

Keith, I frequently use a variation of Rob’s approach when working with rope/thread, by soaking it in a solution of 50/50 PVA/water with a tiny bit of dishwasher rinsing agent (JetDry) to help break the surface tension.  I then arrange it on an off-model mockup that maintains the desired form until it’s dry.  It doesn’t dry solid like a piece of plastic but still holds the shape.  But the material needs to be absorbent and typically a natural fiber.  Nylon and other synthetics have a memory, are non-absorbent, and difficult to work.  My two cents for what it’s worth.

 

Excellent progress Keith.

 

Gary
 

[wefalck]

I am always wary of processes that cannot be adjusted, that't why I would use some varnish or shellac that can be easily dissolved to make correction. This works with polyester-rope, as the varnish soaks into the threads (but not into the fibres, of course).

[rwiederrich]

Many good points are brought up...and some good ideas too.  Natural fibers are easiest to work with and as mentioned have less of a stringent memory.  Gluing gives ample time to make any corrections, and or adjustments to the final look of the coil, while in place.  Best part about the entire process...of adding rope coils...is the plethora of methods that can be employed.  Pick the best method for your skill set/what you are comfortable with and gitt-er done.

 

 

Good luck, in whatever method and or approach you choose.  I've used my method for about 50 years...after much experimentation.  I find it to be the fastest and easiest...not to mention cleanest when finished.

Rob

[ChiefClanker]

Great on the attention to detail and the dedication to do it right!  

 

[Keith Black]

@BANYAN @Javelin @Chief Mark thank you for your kind comments and thank you to all for the likes.  @rwiederrich @wefalck @FriedClams thank you Rob, Eberhard, and Gary for the suggestions on how to make rope coils. I think I've found a way to make the 0.02 inch coils where they look a bit more natural and I'll be getting on to making those as soon as I've laid to rest my latest distraction from stropping deadeyes (anything to put off tackling that task )

 

 Going through my stash of odds and ends I discovered six lanterns I got from Cornwall Model Boats in an order about four years ago. They measure 0.03 H x 0.018 D. At the time I didn't know if I would use them but they looked neat so, what the heck. Well, if I am going to use them, I have to add them now while I can still get to the mast tops and mastheads before rigging lines make it impossible. 

 

 The problem is, I don't know if I can justify doing so. In the Tennessee photos I don't see any lanterns at the mastheads. In one photo maybe, maybe I see one at a mast top. They would be so small in the photos that maybe they can't be seen? Logic would say that they are there, not only for night time navigational reasons but also to provide some light for those working aloft at night. I've searched Google and MSW and have found only vague references for the time period of 1850 to 1900, much more lantern information for the time period after 1900. I haven't found any models in 1850 to 1900 time period with lanterns added. 

 

 I don't want to add anything fanciful, if they were used I'd like to add them. In the photos attached are the lanterns from Cornwall after being treated to make the shiny brass look like copper (as best I could) and gimbaled at the top. A kneed base would have to added at the bottom of the lantern to keep it from swinging wildly about. The lanterns would be placed on the yard side of the mast with the gimbal being seven to eight feet above the platforms.

 

 I've  added the globes but more work is required (the bases being one) before the lanterns would be ready to attach. 

 

 Any thoughts, suggestions, and directions would be greatly appreciated.

 

 Thank you for following along.......KB

 

 

 

[wefalck]

In those old days, when lamps/lanterns where burning petroleum (rather than running on electricity), they were not kept at their place during day-time, but taken down and put into the lantern store, where also the petroleum (and paint and solvents) were kept. Petroleum lamps need a lot of maintanance, such as cleaning the glasses and snuffing the wick.

 

That is presumably the reason, why you don't see them on photographs. However, the installations for hoisting and holding them could/should be visible.

[Keith Black]

23 minutes ago, wefalck said:

when lamps/lanterns where burning petroleum

 Eberhard, wouldn't that have been whale oil during that time period? I get taking them down for maintenance but taking them down every morning and running them back up every evening seems unnecessary? 

[wefalck]

I believe the lamps were taken down for refilling anyway. Not sure how long they would burn, but probably not more than 12h.

 

You are probably right about the whale-oil, but that does not change their handling. Petroleum became available in larger quantities in the USA from around 1865 on.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

Petroleum lamps need a lot of maintanance, such as cleaning the glasses and snuffing the wick.

Not to mention polishing the brass, especially on a naval vessel. In fact, in my own personal experience with marine oil lamps, it isn't generally possible to light an oil lamp outdoors if there's any kind of breeze. They weren't carrying Bic lighters in those days, either. They'd have to take the light from a source with a taper and then light the wick with that.

[Roger Pellett]

The builders drawings for the SS Benjamin Noble built in 1909 show a “lamp room” in the forward quarters even though the ship was fitted with an electric generating plant.  So, even at this late date, navigation lights were apparently lit by oil.

 

The lamp room would provide a sheltered work space where lamps could be filled and lit out of the weather before being hung.  The separate lamp room also kept open flame away from paint, varnish, etc. kept in the bosun stores.

 

Great Lakes Crews included a Watchman for each watch.  He would have been equivalent to a very junior Petty Officer (NCO) on a naval vessel.  His duties would have included setting out navigation lights at sunset each evening, making sure that they kept burning and returning them to the lamp room in the morning.  I assume that naval routine would be no different.

 

Roger

Edited April 15, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[Keith Black]

 

16 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Not to mention polishing the brass, especially on a naval vessel.

 Since this was the Rear Admiral's ship you know the crew was constantly brass busy. 

[wefalck]

I think in the early days of electric lights, they were keeping petroleum lamps as back-up in case the generator failed etc.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

You are probably right about the whale-oil, but that does not change their handling. Petroleum became available in larger quantities in the USA from around 1865 on.

 You're correct, Eberhard. Kerosene for lamps/lanterns use was introduced in the 1860's so the Tennessee would have been using kerosene not whale oil. 

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

In fact, in my own personal experience with marine oil lamps, it isn't generally possible to light an oil lamp outdoors if there's any kind of breeze. They weren't carrying Bic lighters in those days, either. They'd have to take the light from a source with a taper and then light the wick with that.

 

38 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

The lamp room would provide a sheltered work space where lamps could be filled and lit out of the weather before being hung.

 

 I had not considered lighting of the lanterns but it makes sense that they had to be lit below then lifted into place. I don't think the crew was climbing the ratlines with a lit lantern so the crew must have hoisted the lanterns into the tops. This brings more elements into play if one wanted to add them to a model.  

[clearway]

well into the twentieth century ships would have electric navigation lamps and emergency oil navigation lamps- hence why you see the boards port and starboard with two lamps each- usually bottom lamp electric and oil lamp above.

 

Keith

[wefalck]

Not sure about the lighting regulations at that time. I think, when at anchor, they would have had somewhere a white lantern, but that doesn't need to be too high up. It could be also hoisted on one of the forestays.

 

When under sail, at some stage the red and green side-lights were obviously introduced, but I do not know when exactly. Perhaps someone knows?

[Bob Cleek]

54 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 

 

 I had not considered lighting of the lanterns but it makes sense that they had to be lit below then lifted into place. I don't think the crew was climbing the ratlines with a lit lantern so the crew must have hoisted the lanterns into the tops. This brings more elements into play if one wanted to add them to a model.  

 

50 minutes ago, clearway said:

well into the twentieth century ships would have electric navigation lamps and emergency oil navigation lamps- hence why you see the boards port and starboard with two lamps each- usually bottom lamp electric and oil lamp above.

 

48 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Not sure about the lighting regulations at that time. I think, when at anchor, they would have had somewhere a white lantern, but that doesn't need to be too high up. It could be also hoisted on one of the forestays.

 

When under sail, at some stage the red and green side-lights were obviously introduced, but I do not know when exactly. Perhaps someone knows?

"Running lights were an innovation that came first with steam boats, which ran fast and silently, causing collisions with sailing vessels.

 

"In 1838 the United States passed an act requiring steamboats running between sunset and sunrise to carry one or more signal lights; colour, visibility and location were not specified. In 1846 the United Kingdom passed legislation enabling the Lord High Admiral to publish regulations requiring all sea-going steam vessels to carry lights. The admiralty exercised these powers in 1848 and required steam vessels to display red and green sidelights as well as a white masthead light whilst under way and a single white light when at anchor. In 1849 the U.S. Congress extended the light requirements to sailing vessels.

In 1889 the United States convened the first International Maritime Conference to consider regulations for preventing collisions. The resulting Washington Conference Rules were adopted by the U.S. in 1890 and became effective internationally in 1897. Within these rules was the requirement for steamships to carry a second mast head light. The international 1948 Safety of Life at Sea Conference recommended a mandatory second masthead light solely for power-driven vessels over 150 feet (46 m) in length and a fixed stern light for almost all vessels. The regulations have changed little since then."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_light

 

Directional port and starboard running lights were customarily carried in the forwardmost mast shrouds just above the deadeyes or turnbuckles where they would not be obscured by overlapping sails. The white stern light was placed on the centerline above the rail. In earlier times, as early as the mid-seventeenth century, naval vessels sailing in convoy would show stern lights so the following vessels would be able to know where they were. At anchor, a 360 degree white light was hung in the rigging forward of the foreward-most mast, usually run up a stay using the headsail halyard.

 

RMS Campagnia and Lucania, Cunard sisterships launched in 1892 and 1893, were the first fully-electrified transatlantic steamships. They were required to carry duplicate sets of running lights, one above the other, one electric and one oil burning, because the authorities did not trust the electric lights!

 

Curiously, the Hong Kong port authorities required oil lamps to be carried and shown by all vessels in the harbor well into the 20th Century and these were required to be those made by a Hong Kong family of coppersmiths. When you arrived in Hong Kong, if you weren't carrying a set of these lights, you had to purchase a set from the customs officers. I have port and starboard examples of these lights in my collection.

 

 

 

 

[wefalck]

Thanks, that tallies with what I thought.

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I have port and starboard examples of these lights in my collection.

Bob, do you have any pics of these lights for our edification?

 

Rob

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Bob, do you have any pics of these lights for our edification?

 

Rob

Not at the moment, but I'll take some and see if I can post them tomorrow. 

[Keith Black]

8 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Not at the moment, but I'll take some and see if I can post them tomorrow. 

 Bob, please post photos of your HK lanterns, in fact, please post photos of your entire lantern collection. I'd love to see them. 

[Bob Cleek]

16 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Bob, do you have any pics of these lights for our edification?

 

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Bob, please post photos of your HK lanterns, in fact, please post photos of your entire lantern collection. I'd love to see them.

 

I probably should have put "collection" in quotation marks. It's not like "my collection" is all that impressive from any historical standpoint. It's just that after a lifetime of sailing, I've got a lot of "artifacts" in my shop and around the house. Whenever my wife starts grousing about my "old stuff you're never going to use again," I always tell her it's part of  one of "my collections."    Indeed, I do have real collections, and then there's just "stuff that I don't want to part with."

 

Forty years ago, I lived like an Ewok in a California coast redwood forest and we'd lose our power a half dozen times a winter, sometimes for a few days, so we'd always have oil lamps throughout the house, most not being nautical and what my ex-wife didn't take with her are still around. My marine oil lamp "collection" presently serves as bookends on my library shelves and at my age isn't likely to ever see sea duty again. 

 

I acquired the running lights back in the 1970's when I worked as a salesman for the premier classic yacht brokerage on San Francisco Bay. We brokered the sale of an Alden schooner and they were at the bottom of a pile of junk in the lazarette. The buyer didn't want them and they were on their way to the boatyard dumpster, so... Thank you very much! Picking up goodies like these was one of the perks of the job.

 

A few years back, I was puttering around and had a batch of "CLR" (Calcium-Lime-Rust remover - good stuff!) mixed up to clean out some showerheads, I impulsively tossed the starboard light into the bucket to see how it would do removing the rough copper patina built up on it. Obviously, it worked, but I never got around to doing the port one because I couldn't make up my mind whether I wanted to put the starboard one out to weather to a more even verdigris patina, or clean it up to match the "old penny" finish of the starboard light. The lamp bodies are made of copper. The bails, the "port" and "starboard" badges, and the lamp are made of brass.

 

Tung Woo - Hong Kong running lights:

 

The chimney tops open to access the oil lamp:  

The reflector slides off the lamp burner for ease of polishing:

Below is my anchor lamp made in the US by Perkins Lamp Co. (Later "Perko.") It has a Wedge burner, which was a common off-the-self wick burner. These were manufactured and sold by Perko, (which is still in business,) until, I believe, around 1975 or so. There's one on eBay at the moment that they want $300 bucks for. Some idiot drilled a hole through the oil font in order to electrify it, which ruined it for use as an oil lamp unless the font is patched. Unfortunately, a lot of nice brass and bronze marine lamps were turned into decorator table lamps over the years and you'll pay hell to find the right ones for a classic yacht restoration job these days. https://www.ebay.com/itm/374442771684?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338678874&toolid=20006%26customid%3Ds%3AGS%3Bgc%3A81e12fb7ba20160d1a064b8bd197e985%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A1&customid=s%3AGS%3Bgc%3A81e12fb7ba20160d1a064b8bd197e985%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A2&msclkid=81e12fb7ba20160d1a064b8bd197e985 There's no doubt that an LED lamp will put out more light than a oil lamp and you don't have to fiddle with cleaning, filling, and trimming the wicks, but it's quite remarkable how much light a correctly trimmed oil lamp can put out and I believe they still meet current navigational signal regulations. I always enjoyed the ritual of lighting my oil anchor lamp as the sun went down when I was spending the night "on the hook." I bought this lamp in the early seventies from a now-long gone chandlery that had then been in business on San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf (before the wharf became a total tourist trap) for over a hundred years. A friend was the manager there and it was "new old stock" they wanted to get rid of. I think he gave it to me for around fifty bucks, which was at a good discount, but that was still real money in those days, for a kid like me, at least. I kept it and the saloon overhead trawler lamp when I passed my Giles Vertue to a new owner after having her for over 40 years. It's more of a "memento," than part of a "collection."

 

This is a 360 degree light hung in the forward rigging. On the bottom edge (clearly seen in the lower picture) were two bails for attaching a downhaul line. This lamp would be run up on the forestay with the headsail halyard. The downhaul line would be secured so that the lamp would remain vertical and not swing in the wind and also be used to pull the lamp and attached halyard back down to the deck when removing the lamp. The oil font holds enough oil to feed the flame for a night's worth of light while the boat was at anchor. It's about eight or nine inches tall and made entirely of brass. It's quite stunning when polished up, which I haven't done in years, obviously. It was always my practice to remove any lacquer that was applied to quality marine yellow metal to keep it bright and then to polish it regularly. There's quite a difference in appearance and the lacquer degrades after a time and tarnished spots and scratches appear all of the piece. A regular quick rubbing with Nev-R-Dull or Brasso keeps bare brass looking sharp.

 

 

[Keith Black]

 Thank you, Bob. It's a shame MSW doesn't give you the option of using two emojis because your post required a "thank you" and a wow. 

 

 edit......Mark just added the needed wow. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Keith Black

[Bob Cleek]

20 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Thank you, Bob. It's a shame MSW doesn't give you the option of using two emojis because your post required a "thank you" and a wow. 

You're welcome. It was a pleasure to share something of interest to me that I would not have thought anybody else would have cared about.  

 

Writing the above got me to thinking and doing a bit of googling.

 

With respect to your question about how oil lamps were set at the masthead, I found a matching Tung Woo masthead light, which would be used for powered vessels, for sale for only $500, reduced from $600! (A little rich for my blood. I'll pass on completing my set at the moment!) These have round fairleads on the sides through which lines are run that enable them to be set with a halyard and turning block at the masthead. The lines through the double fairleads keep the lamp from twisting around when it is set aloft. https://www.nauticallights.com/copper-masthead-lantern-tung-woo-small/ This requires a bit of convoluted rigging: a permanent messenger halyard to haul up the lamp and the bight of the double ended "side control lines" running through the fair leads to the masthead aloft. The two falls from the fair leads would then be hauled and belayed port and starboard, at the rails, probably, to keep the light in place. This would, however, eliminate the need for anybody to go aloft to deal with the lamp.

 

 

I also found a matching Tung Woo stern light, which sold on an auction site I've never heard of, for only $38. Now, I would have liked to have found that deal so that I have the sailing light "trifecta" in my "collection." (The prices of this stuff is all over the place.) At least the next time my wife starts in on "my collections of junk around the house," I can now show her the $500 asking price for one of these running lights and assure her that she will be able to get rich selling all "my collections of junk" when they finally slide me under the main brace.  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[KeithAug]

I have to take my hat off to you guys. Such a detailed knowledge of so many obscure subjects. Sheldon Cooper would be proud of you.

[BANYAN]

Nice collection of lamps Bob; and a very helpful post. 

 

Many thanks

 

Pat