Curtiss P-40B Warhawk by Asat- Airfix- 1/48

[ASAT]

Thanks guys, I have been watching all kinds of vids on it and our own James H. Did a step by step build for a modeling book on typhoons and for Scale Modeler International’s mag, got the cover of both! I found a copy of the book plus some other great resources on a subscription service Scribed.com - that guy can build!!  I am waiting again for stuff for the P40 so I am going to start the Airfix P-51 till I get the mr.surfacer and masks I got for the P40.

[ASAT]

Started with the cockpit, this one has the belts molded into the seat, came out OK. Man! I don’t know how anyone could fold and make PE belts look that good! Know I know the P40 belts are way too big these things are tiny! Probably 1mm or even less!! Instrument panel and try some wiring on the radio stack up next....

Edited April 3, 2020 by ASAT

[Old Collingwood]

That is looking nice  - so much detail crammed Into the space.

 

OC.

[mtaylor]

Lou, how about opening a new log for the P-51?  

[ASAT]

Ok with me, should I delete these posts? Can you move the reply’s to the new thread?

[mtaylor]

We'll just leave them here.  I can't move OC's post. 

[ASAT]

OK -I received my canopy and camouflage masks, painted the bird topside with Vallejo AV71125 Curtiss Brown, what is the procedure for installing the masks? How long do I need to wait before putting on the masks? Or do I need to shoot a varnish over the brown first? Also any tips on fitting the canopy masks so I don’t ruin them just charging in.... 😇 appreciate any help you guys can give....

Edited April 22, 2020 by ASAT

[Old Collingwood]

I dont know but know a man who does  ..........".Craig "     "Craig"

 

OC.

[ASAT]

Craig? Do you think I should start a new topic asking for help?

[Old Collingwood]

18 minutes ago, ASAT said:

Craig? Do you think I should start a new topic asking for help?

Craig is the guy to go to for Plane builds on here   CDW  is his  name  here, if he cant help no one can.

 

OC.

[ASAT]

Oh CDW!! Yeah he will know... I’ll give it till morning then pm him if I don’t hear anything....

[popeye the sailor]

one thing I can tell you.......if your using enamels,  I'd be careful.  I'm still figuring out what to do.  after I sprayed the glass,  I read the back of the mask set and it suggests not using thinners or mineral spirits due to the adhesive on the maskings.  it not only bleed through the maskings,  but there is adhesive all over the parts.  I haven't unmasked the main canopy yet....I can just imagine what it looks like.  Vallejo is an acrylic so you should be alright  

[ASAT]

Thanks Popeye, I have only used acrylics up to this point....  I’m looking into oils for weathering as I guess they can be easily removed if you mess up? Sounds like just the ticket for me.....😁 this one is pretty much a test bed anyway....

[ASAT]

So I got some good advise in a couple of PMs from CDW and Jwvolz - so I went ahead with the camouflage masks and painted the second color and added the exhaust manifolds, I guess clear and decals are next and then some attempts at weathering ....  still working out the airbrush mix and pressure techniques but this is a lot of fun! 

[Edwardkenway]

Looks great Lou, nice work😁

[Canute]

Paint job is nice and smooth, Lou. Think you're getting the hang of the airbrush.

[Tigerdvr]

Sir, I believe you have been smitten with the New Plastic Era Disease (NPED). It involves an innocent venture from the wood ship models that you have been building. You probably have

fond memories of the plastic models of your much younger days. Those days before photo etch, resin, and detail beyond your greatest expectations. Before there were hundreds of colors, washes,

tints, masks etc. available to replace the neat stuff you used to mix by yourself. You told yourself "it can't hurt to just check out the new stuff". 

WRONG, now that you have teased yourself, you've opened up a whole new world of possibilities and opportunities. If you start enjoying complicated photo etch challenges, you're probably too far gone

You are doing a great job on adjusting to the world of modern plastics. Can you go back to the world of saw dust and lumber? Only time can tell.

I must admit that I have a severe case of NPED. No known cure, just enjoy the hell out of it.

Cheers

 

[ASAT]

Thanks Ken and Edward for the kind words, and I believe you have hit the nail on the head Tigerdvr, I am having a great time.... I did get out of the house today and played some golf but after that I managed to mask up the canopy, windscreen and side glass, used a masking set from eduard - man! What a treat that is! Well worth the $6 - I could never do this well masking or freehand on my own.....

[lmagna]

Great work on your P-40 Lou. I have always had a soft spot for this aircraft. It may not have been the best aircraft in the American WWII inventory, but for a while it was almost the only one we had in the Pacific and in the right hands gave out damage with the best. 

[Edwardkenway]

Nice painting Lou, coming on great😁

[popeye the sailor]

canopy came out great.......a heck of a lot better than mine did.  I think my problems stemmed from a lesser know brand of mask.........I'll look for better quality next time    great camo paint.......guess you can't call this a test model anymore     super!

[ASAT]

Thanks guys for looking in, and thanks for all the “likes” - I have always liked this bird too Lou, especially in the Flying Tigers  motif with the sharks teeth, quite the imposing look.... I didn’t know that they were not very maneuverable and considered underpowered till I started reading up on them doing this build, I guess they had a great dive rate though and the AVG guys used that to their advantage using a “dive and zoom” technique instead of normal dogfighting that contributed greatly to their success. Thanks for the tip on the canopy mask too Popeye, I didn’t think that other brands might be inferior... guess I’ll stick with Eduard... no pun intended 😎   Next up is decals and I don’t have any setting solution yet so I guess I’ll work on something else till I get that... Anyone have a great recommendation for an awesome decal setting solution/ solvent? There appears to be a ton of those as well, I’ve heard good things about the Tamiya Mark Fit Strong...?

Edited April 27, 2020 by ASAT

[Egilman]

11 minutes ago, ASAT said:

Anyone have a great recommendation for an awesome decal setting solution/ solvent?

Me, I've always stood by Micro-set/sol, call it the old standby.... seldom have had a bad result using them with the proper surface prep...

[lmagna]

4 hours ago, ASAT said:

I didn’t know that they were not very maneuverable and considered underpowered

Not quite true if you look at things a little differently than many history books do. The Zero had a top speed of about 330 in level flight and maxed out at 350 in a dive. Late war models with more power could reach 350 in level flight. The early P-40s could reach 350 in level flight and that dropped to 345 after they started adding self sealing fuel tanks and armor, but came back up to  360 in the E model and 380 in the late war N model. The dive speed is mostly stated as over 480 in a dive depending on your source. The early 40s were a little under-gunned compared to the Zero but when they deleted the nose guns and went to six .50s in the wings with the D model they were pretty much carrying as much firepower as anyone else, and more than some. The Zero did have two 20s and two 7.7mm guns. Most often they would use the 7.7s for aiming and when on target the shorter range slower firing 20s for the kill. This arrangement was more suited to killing bombers than as a fighter. 

 

As for maneuverability, you might want to looks at that as well. While there is no question that the Zero could out turn the 40, it could also out maneuver the Spitfire, BF-109, P-38, P-47, P-51 and more. The P-40 was considered more agile that the BF-109 and P51 Mustang and several others. Not bad for a 1937 design with a non supercharged engine. Of course the extra armor and self sealing tanks made the P-40 MUCH more survivable than the Zero. That was proven time and time again. While the Zero was certainly more agile at low speeds of 200 (+-) they started to loose that advantage at higher speeds above 275. They completely lost the ability to roll and started loosing wing skin at speeds of a little over 350 and if the pilot pushed too hard he could loose his wings all together!

 

Think what it would be like to be in a fight against a P-40 with the P-40 on your tail. First off you are being chased by a plane that has a faster speed than you do, so out running him is out of the question. You push hard and try to out maneuver the P-40 but in order to stay at maximum range you need to push your aircraft to the limit and get outside of your maximum maneuvering speed range. To make a loop or turn you need to make a roll first but your aircraft is going too fast to start the roll. A climb or loop would be the best as there is almost nothing in the world that can match a Zero in a climb, a dive would be fatal, the 40 would catch you in no time. So you try for the loop anyway. If you succeed you will almost certainly gain the advantage of the favored "6 O'clock" position, but you will also have to deal with two other factors of the American aircraft's abilities. #1, when you start your maneuver you will almost certainly have to fly through a burst of .50 cal bullets and without armor or self sealing fuel tanks this could easily be the end of the maneuver before it even starts. # 2, if you are able to complete the loop you run into the next problem. The Americans, starting with Chennault's Flying Tigers over China, have adopted the wingman flying a weave formation behind the aircraft you are trying to avoid. This second aircraft is almost certain to get you if you try to become aggressive against the first plane. If somehow you are able to pull it off and get into a favorable position then the smarter pilots just go into a dive that you are powerless to follow and the engagement is over. You never even got a chance to use your powerful but short range 20mm guns.

 

While the Zero was certainly not an aircraft to be disregarded, it also was not quite the legend history has made it to be. As a dogfighter the Zero was unparalleled, and its great range gave it tactical flexibility. It was the world's first great long-range escort fighter. Yet as an all-around fighter its flaws came back to haunt it. Once its adversaries became aware of its drawbacks and limitations, the myth of the Zero's invincibility was shot to ribbons, along with many a plane.

 

The P-40's attributes were near opposites to that of the Zero's. The fastest model P-40 could outrun the fastest model Zeke by at least 30 mph and no model Zero could outrun its contemporary P-40 rival. The P-40's dive speed was also better. The normal dive limit speed for a P-40 was 480 mph and sometimes exceeded 500 mph. This proved especially useful using the hit and run tactics pioneered during the war. The structural integrity of the P-40's airframe could stand over 9 G's, far better then the frail Zeke. The Curtiss also had pilot armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, standard for all U.S. fighters.

 

I could go on and on about how the P-40 has been underrated in history while the Zero and other Axis fighters it had to fight were bathed in glory, yet it somehow continued to hold it's own and more against all of them when properly flown. But this is not the time or place for that much history and examples of ability. This is your build log and I will apologize in advance for getting on my soapbox and rambling on.

 

Now, back to your fantastic build! 

Edited April 27, 2020 by lmagna

[mtaylor]

Part of the problem and it seem endemic in WWII was that the American pilots going in had little to no combat experience against either the -109 or the Zero.  When the early aces started high and diving through the formations with the -40 and then taught it to the new pilots, it worked for them.  Later as the -40 evolved and the pilots became more skilled, they learned new tricks and we better able to use the -40's attributes.

[Egilman]

1 hour ago, lmagna said:

Not quite true if you look at things a little differently than many history books do......

 

Now, back to your fantastic build! 

Excellent rundown Lou....

There was one plane in the military services worldwide that could out turn a Zero, believe it or not, it was the F4F wildcat..... the problem with the early Wildcats was that it was seriously underpowered.... (and as we know pilot inexperience) once they upgraded the F4F to a 1500 hp engine (early war planes only had 925 hp) it became the bane of anyone coming up against one.... the German pilots flying 109's in the Med were known to avoid tangling with them if they had a choice........ There were several dozen Aces in one mission navy pilots early in the war.... I think the top one was Joe Foss with seven confirmed kills in one mission..... (he had five in one mission on two other occasions) The early Wildcat could handle the Zero as long as you flew it within it's flight envelope. And when they finally fixed it's power problem it was absolutely superior to the Zero in every respect...

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

Part of the problem and it seem endemic in WWII was that the American pilots going in had little to no combat experience against either the -109 or the Zero.  .....

Another very good point....

Before Pearl Harbor, the USAAC knew all about the Zero and it's capabilities the Flying tigers were sending all information they had back to the US intelligence services... and aircraft were in the pipeline to resolve those issues like the P-38, P-47 & P-51. but we had to make due with what we had and the P-40 was our top line fighter plane. but there is no way to get experience in A2A combat unless you are actually in it so to speak.....

 

yes we had a deficiency in experienced combat pilots, which was quickly remedied when they initiated ACM training before going overseas......

Edited April 27, 2020 by Egilman

[lmagna]

3 hours ago, Egilman said:

USAAC knew all about the Zero and it's capabilities the Flying tigers were sending all information they had back to the US intelligence services

 Yes Chennault was sending the information about how his fifty active aircraft of the AVG were able to achieve a 70-1 ratio of kills against the Japanese. In 7 months the AVG was credited with between 286-296 confirmed kills, depending on your source, with an additional 153 probables with the loss of only 12 P-40s and 3 pilots in combat. This was with pilots from all three branches of the American military with virtually no prior experience with the P-40 or with actual combat. He was continually sending information and intelligence about the Zero and methods on how to combat it to Washington but his reports were being filed and disregarded so the lessons had to be learned all over by the American and pilots in other countries using the P-40 and they also started using the Thach  weave tactic and the drive by shooting method preferred by the AVG.  

 

I was once able to watch a "Race" between several unmodified WWII aircraft. One was the F4F. The P-40, P51, and others all turned around the pylon in wide sweeping turns and comming up last in line was the poor F4F. It looked like he almost reached out and grabbed the pylon ad instantly was heading in the new direction! It was almost too fast to follow. I was able to talk to the pilot later and he said that the turning of the F4F was the only way the Wildcat could even hope to keep up with the other planes. He claimed that the plane could even do better but he was flying a plane that was about as old as he was, (He had white hair) and was one of only two flyable F4Fs in the world and when you are flying "races" at less than 100 feet above the ground there is little time to react if something goes wrong.

 

According to at least one book, written by a WWII Japanese pilot, the F4F was nothing compared to the F6F and the F4U Corsair.

Edited April 28, 2020 by lmagna

[Egilman]

When the Tigers were formed in China, the situation was that the Japanese had complete control of the air, what few aircraft the chinese had were quickly eliminated. the units of the Japanese army air corp were flying the planes they had been sent there with mostly Claudes which still had fixed landing gear with wheel pants....  The P-40's were a rude awakening for them, as the Claude was no match..... The tigers mission was to stop the wanton bombing of chinese positions so to give the Chinese forces a chance to recover, in the process they pretty much devastated the Sentai flying Claudes so badly that they were recalled/retired and the Japanese were forced to replace them with A6M units. The Tigers quickly learned how not to fight the Zero and which tactics worked....

 

It's a damned shame at what the REMF's did with that very valuable intelligence, but they also thought that the Japanese would not be as ambitious and they proved to be... Yes we had to relearn the lessons.... but the aircraft engineers who were privy to the information had a very good understanding what they were facing and were working on it even if the staff types at the pentagon were not putting a lot of emphasis in forwarding the info...

 

They were more concerned with the capabilities of German aircraft, rather than what the Japanese were doing in China...... They just plain couldn't believe that the Japanese were capable of fighting on the level they were actually capable of or that their equipment was any good...

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Egilman
Removing an off color comment

[Egilman]

45 minutes ago, lmagna said:

the F4F was nothing compared to the F6F and the F8U Corsair.

Agreed. In fact it took a little skullduggery for the F6F to become the plane it turned out to be.... when originally designed the F6F was scheduled to get the R-2600 engine and the R-2800 was exclusively designated for the F4U Corsair. The F6F was the first to fly of the two and was disappointing with the R-2600. not much better than the F4F that preceded it. Two of the Grumman engineers working with P&W was surreptitiously put in contact through a P&W senior official who managed to spirit a couple of R-2800's to Grumman on the cuff which they promptly installed in their brand new F6F and as they say, the rest is history......

 

AS far as the F8U against an F4F? ... {chuckle} you really want me to answer that? (you would first have to find out how to get a J-57 into an F4F)

 

One other thing, by the time the improved F4F's got back to the pacific, most of the experienced Japanese Aviators were gone.... even as improved, the F4F wasn't anywhere near as capable as the F6F with the R-2800....

Edited April 28, 2020 by Egilman

[mtaylor]

Here's a link to a bunch of P-40 articles: https://nationalinterest.org/search/node/P-40   I've been doing a lot of reading when waiting for glue to dry or other things to happen at that site.  They do have articles on the others that we've been talking about also and a pretty good search function.