HMS Victory by mfrazier - Sergal 782 - 1:78 scale

[mfrazier]

Welcome to my new build log of the HMS Victory. 

     This journey has a special meaning for me. All my life I wanted to build a ship. Not just any ship, but a highly detailed model, but as with most things life gets in the way. I built many models as a kid and teenager, but nothing like this. I grew up, went to school, got a degree in electronics, then became an engineer,  worked at many trades, became a master machinist,  a tool and die maker, traveled the US, Canada, and Mexico as an engineer for a CNC machine tool manufacturer.  My lifelong hobby was wood working. I retired at age 48 due to medical issues. Now, at 68, I  am working on goals on my bucket list. I desire to build this ship while I still can. I  don't know what time is left .... one year .... 5 ... 20, it's unsure,  but I  have life threatening issues along with other issues.  Enough about me, now let's build a ship.

I  recieved the Mantua Sergal 782 kit of the HMS Victory this morning.  This was not the kit I  wanted. I wanted the Billings Boats  kit, but due to the difficult times now with this virus they are closed temporarily and my order could not be filled. The distributor was very helpful in getting this kit to me as a substitute.  My reason for wanting the Billings  was it provided the basics at a good price and I  could replace the lesser quality parts with aftermarket and make the ship better detailed.  I will be doing the same thing with this kit. I did have to pay an extra $72 for this kit. The Billings was $397. I have been studying McKay's book , The 100 Gun Ship, and finding sources for upgrades while waiting 2 months for the kit to arrive. I figure another $300 in aftermarket pieces will accomplish my goal, still being less than the Caldercraft kit.. and hopefully better.

 

 

 

Mark Frazier 

 

[J T Lombard]

Mark:

I'm along for the ride.

regards

J Lombard

 

P.S. I have the Panart 783 kit

[mfrazier]

I searched but could find very little builds of this kit. As I  review it,  I  think I  see why. Unless you have plans to replace a lot or scratch build a lot, this is not the kit to get. I think it will work good for me as I  will be replacing most of the parts. 

 

As for instructions..... well they are poor ... or worse. You would have to know what you are doing because they are no help.

there are 4 double sided sheets of illustrations but two of those are just identifying the parts and one is for rigging.  The instruction book is very basic.  It is in three languages but with only 63 pages, this limits the information. They are pretty much useless after you assemble the hull. 

The castings are kind of poor, I  will be hopefully replacing most of them with ones from Shapeways. ( I have an order ready to send)

The wood parts are excellent.  The wood strips and dowels are pretty good also. This is what I  wanted the kit for anyway,  the basic structure. 

the blocks are all the usual kit quality  ... poor  .... they will all be replaced with blocks from Syren. 

 

The cannons are turned brass and very nice.

The biggest problem is the stern gallery.  It will require major work  and a lot of scratch building to be what I  want. Hopefully I can do this part and not use the kit parts. I have led lights I  would like to install , but that is still undecided.  The Billings kit was ideal for doing the lights , but this one would require a lot of work.

My next update will be assembling the hull.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by mfrazier
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[mfrazier]

30 minutes ago, J T Lombard said:

Mark:

I'm along for the ride.

regards

J Lombard

 

P.S. I have the Panart 783 kit

Welcome,  glad to have you.

 

The difference between the 782 and 783 is mainly the 783 has the Life Boats, ships wheel, binnacle and copper plates. I don't have plans to copper the hull anyway... but you never know. The 782 now DOES come with the life boats though. I didn't care about the ships wheel as it is not scaled correctly and would be replaced. The binnacle,  I can build or buy from Shapeways. 

Edited April 2, 2020 by mfrazier
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[mfrazier]

23 minutes ago, Y.T. said:

I thought the cast fittings I got in Mamoli 1:90 kit are bad. The ones you got are much worse.

These are really bad, but I  knew that going in. I will invest the money in ordering new ones from Shapeways hopefully. 

 

Mark Frazier 

[mfrazier]

I have done an inventory to make sure I  have everything and it seems I do. Building this kit is by the seat of your pants. Besides the poor instructions ( I  don't think the Italian translated well) there is one sheet with a half dozen photos.  The rest is up to me. ( good thing I been studying a lot).

I have dry fit all the bulkheads.  The laser cutting was excellent.  I just removed the char from the slots and everything fit right together perfectly.

I set it up on my build board for gluing. I have two aluminum bars at the sides on the bottom, held by screwed down blocks. There are three pairs of right angles screwed down to hold it square and upright.

 

The construction of this hull is kind of interesting.  You have to install all the bulkheads at the same time as the deck support you see in the photo can't be installed after the bulkheads. The last three bulkheads get put in and the deck support is slid in place. The rest of the bulkheads are slid over the front of the support and slid into place with the deck support.  Once the bulkheads are in place and the deck support is in its location, everything is pretty solid.  There is no adjustment. With it in the build board, the next step is to brush glue on all the bulk head joints.

 

As can be seen in the next photo, the decks have the planks engraved on them and it actually looks pretty good, but they supply planking strips also to give a choice, and I will be planking my decks.

[Gregory]

It might be worth the saved effort to use the etched decking on the lower decks, where little if any will be visible on the finished model..

 

Also, you might consider doing a some fairing of the bulkheads before gluing the framework all together.  You will have a much better angle of attack with the bulkheads off the ship..

[mfrazier]

15 minutes ago, Gregory said:

It might be worth the saved effort to use the etched decking on the lower decks, where little if any will be visible on the finished model..

 

Also, you might consider doing a some fairing of the bulkheads before gluing the framework all together.  You will have a much better angle of attack with the bulkheads off the ship..

Starting the fairing ahead seems a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion as I  probably need all the help I  can get. There are a lot of great builds of this ship on here and I  have read all of them. I learned a lot doing so.

You are correct about the planking,  but I  am an admitted perfectionist and  I  would know what is under there. I think I  will have to plank them as I am afraid it would make me crazy knowing I took a shortcut, but I  still have a couple days to think about it. 

I welcome all suggestions and ideas, as there is a lot I  don't know about ships. My first build was the Corel 1:85 scale Golden Hind. I built it as a dry run to do this one. I am also presently simultaneously building Chuck Passaro's Winchelsea.  It will fill in time when I  need a break or waiting for parts.

 

Mark Frazier 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

If you wish to try it, the carvings on Victory aren’t that bad to make from scratch, and 1/78 is easier to work at than 1/98.  
 

The figurehead for mine was only the second one I had ever done.  It took me about thirty hours to make.  I made it in several pieces but it looks much better than the one that came in the kit.

 

 

[mfrazier]

1 hour ago, GrandpaPhil said:

If you wish to try it, the carvings on Victory aren’t that bad to make from scratch, and 1/78 is easier to work at than 1/98.  
 

The figurehead for mine was only the second one I had ever done.  It took me about thirty hours to make.  I made it in several pieces but it looks much better than the one that came in the kit.

 

 

I wish I could,  but I doubt I  could carve them. I am left handed and have bad tremors on my left side. Something that fine would be difficult.  Some days the tremors aren't too bad and some days  I can't even type on the phone. Shapeways 3D prints several parts for the victory and the detail is fantastic.  For the money, it may be the best way to go.

[mfrazier]

The bulkheads and deck supports are glued in and I  am working on the dummy cannon rails. I'll  let this dry overnight  and finish the hull framing tomorrow. 

[mfrazier]

1 hour ago, Y.T. said:

This is true but they are very expensive.

I didn't think the price was too bad. The parts I  want from them is about $250. I guess it is a matter of whether one feels the price and quality is affordable and worth it, compared to any other choice. That was my reason for a less expensive kit so I  could justify the cost of replacing the inferior parts. 

But I  do agree,  they are expensive. 

Mark Frazier 

Edited April 3, 2020 by mfrazier
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[J T Lombard]

Mark:

Which parts did you get from Shapeways?

 

J

[Jeff-E]

Very nice start, Mark, I will follow along if I may. I also have the Panart 783 kit on the shelf which I hope to start after my next build.

Have you considered the Caldercraft figure head as a replacement?

[ccoyle]

It sounds like you have thought this through and have a good plan in mind, Mark. Wishing you every success!

[gieb8688]

Hello Mark,

Following with interest since I am in the process of restoring this kit.  Best of luck!

Thanks,

Mark

[mfrazier]

10 hours ago, J T Lombard said:

Mark:

Which parts did you get from Shapeways?

 

J

I haven't sent my order yet. Will do it next week. I still have some major decisions to make on this kit and need to figure out exactly what I want and get it all together.

 

Welcome Jeff-E. Glad to have you. Yes but for the money, I  think the Shapeways figure head is much better looking.

 

ccoyle. I try. I been studying books and videos of the ship for months preparing for the kit. The disappointing thing was not getting the kit I  originally wanted and planned for.  While this is a fairly decent kit, it will change some of my plans because of the differences.

 

Welcome Mark (gieb8688). It is hard to find any builds of the Sergal 782 or 783. I wondered why.

[mfrazier]

I said this kit was different than the Billings and would change some things. This is the biggest problem area . The above photo is the rear panel for the gallery. It is not bad looking, but the details are laser etched relief into the wood panel. This kit has another panel to put behind this one which is to be painted white. This fills the windows with a white background and I don't like that.

This kit has three pieces for the floors and ceilings,  the Billings had 4 which was what I  planned on. 

if I don't put the false panel behind it the windows are blocked by the center floor and the vertical piece. The reason this is a big problem is I  wanted to put LED lights in this area. So, now I  have to decide about rebuilding this whole stern or follow the kit. If I  use this panel as is, since the figures are laser etched in relief and the castings are fit onto them also, the  Shapeways set of figures may not fit. So, I  have to work this out before ordering from Shapeways.  The  side gallery construction on this model is also much different than the Billings kit and will present another bunch of problems for my original plans. 

     I only have half the number of LEDs I  probably should consider,  so I  may abandon the lights or only put them in the galleries and leave the cannon ports dark. I  wonder if that would look okay. I imagine the real ship wasn't always all lit up, but I don't know. 

    The first thing is to work out this stern gallery problem so I know what to order. I had a plan on everything until due to this pandemic,  I  had to change kits. But I  didn't know how bad it was going to effect my plan. So.... now with a bag of lemons Life is giving .... I will make lemonade. 

Meanwhile,  on with the hull constuction. 

 

Mark Frazier 

[ccoyle]

Just an aside -- we don't hear too much about developments at Mantua/Panart/Sergal. It's a company that gets a lot of heat for its perceived  outdated construction methods, clunky fittings, and indecipherable instructions. It's apparent, though, based on the photos you've provided, that they are at least making some efforts to improve their kits (laser-cut parts and etched deck, for example). The stern facade, despite whatever its shortcomings might be, at least looks sharp, and visually speaking it compares well to some of the molded stern ornamentation seen in some other kits.

[mfrazier]

1 hour ago, ccoyle said:

Just an aside -- we don't hear too much about developments at Mantua/Panart/Sergal. It's a company that gets a lot of heat for its perceived  outdated construction methods, clunky fittings, and indecipherable instructions

Yes, I  have read that in many places online. The laser cutting of their parts (in this kit ) is excellent.  Any tight places only required removing the char color.  Everything so far fits perfectly. I think they have made some great improvements,  but not enough. The castings are still poor quality. The instructions just plain suck. But , they basically tell you right in the instructions that you are expected to know what you are doing.  Guess that is  an easy out instead of making better instructions. This is my opinion,  but if one wants to build a ship out of the box, they better get the Caldercraft kit. My intention was to make a better detailed ship even than the Caldercraft,  and I  believe with the Billings kit this is very possible using aftermarket pieces and some scratch building,  but I  had to settle for the Sergal kit ( or wait for God only knows how long  for the Billings). My plans may get changed some, but I  look forward to the challenge of what I  can do with this kit.

 

Mark Frazier 

Edited April 3, 2020 by mfrazier
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[mfrazier]

They don't tell this in the instructions,  but the only way to make the dummy cannon rails bend to follow the bulkheads at the front is to make some cuts at the first two bulkheads to allow bending without breaking. 

[EricWilliamMarshall]

33 minutes ago, mfrazier said:

make some cuts at the first two bulkheads to allow bending without breaking. 

nifty and clever!!

[mfrazier]

All the dummy cannon rails are installed. The next thing will be planking all the decks.  The instructions say plank them and then install them,  but the main deck has to be bowed a good bit to install it and the deck under it is split in half. This to me means install and then plank even though it will be more difficult.  My mind is still racing wondering about the stern galleries.  I need to make a decision. 

[mfrazier]

This is how the Billings kit says to plank the deck. I  am going to try this on this kit and see how it looks. The thread will simulate the caulking. I  cut a pile of 80 mm long pieces and stacked them. I then took a couple of swipes with a sanding block on the edges to remove the "fuzz" and give the edges a sharper look. If this works good, I  will post a photo when done.

 

Mark Frazier 

[mfrazier]

Okay, the thread isn't working because the only thread I  have is too thin. I am not going out shopping for any. These planks are the same as what came with my Golden Hind.  I will treat them the same way. I colored the edges with a pencil and then after planking if needed, I  used a .5 mm drafting pencil and a ruler to draw along the seam to accentuate it. The following photo shows how it looks. 

I  am satisfied with this. It actually looks better than the photo. 

 

The front bollards needed finished before installing and they need installed before planking the hull as the planks fasten to the bottom of them.

The photo above, they are dry fit.

 

I didn't want to use them as supplied because they don't look right even though the instructions show using them as is.

I carved them on the other two sides to match. They look much better.

6 coats of matte black acrylic paint and they look good. 

This part had to be done to get ready for planking the hull.

[chris watton]

7 hours ago, ccoyle said:

Just an aside -- we don't hear too much about developments at Mantua/Panart/Sergal. It's a company that gets a lot of heat for its perceived  outdated construction methods, clunky fittings, and indecipherable instructions. It's apparent, though, based on the photos you've provided, that they are at least making some efforts to improve their kits (laser-cut parts and etched deck, for example). The stern facade, despite whatever its shortcomings might be, at least looks sharp, and visually speaking it compares well to some of the molded stern ornamentation seen in some other kits.

Agreed, the stern doesn't look half bad at all, they have made improvements.

 

Regarding parts of the stern interfering with the windows at the centre, just mark and cut some of that area away both on the main keel at the stern and the pattern that intersects it, It will make little difference at all to integral strength, and you can use your LED's.

[mfrazier]

2 minutes ago, Y.T. said:

Hey Mark, I suggest at this moment you do not order any parts from Shapeways. As you proceed with your build your scratch building skills will improve and your vision of what you need may change. I build Mamoli Victory 1:90 scale. Boy... how much on this kit I had to change and I did and I scratch built it?...This is what I scratch built and finished today for HMS Victory side board steps. Took me a few weeks of thinking and trials.

....And speaking again of Shapeways parts - after all it is plastic designed by someone else . It is very tempting to use it as it is so true looking and to scale. I try checking my skills whenever I see a bad part from the kit. I scratch build whenever I see it is possible. This actually gives me most satisfaction from the hobby.

I agree with you.  I will scratch build anything I  can. There is an awful lot in this kit I would prefer to change out or at least modify greatly. Some of the small details are proving very difficult with these darn tremors,  but I fully intend to scratch build if possible before buying. The figure head is the most desired part from shipways for me and the stern decoration. I know I  can't carve these.I bought the kit for the hull mostly ( and this isn't the one I  wanted.) I had to settle for this kit or not get one for a long while. 

 

By the way. What I see of yours, it looks great. 

 

Mark Frazier 

[mfrazier]

It was pointed out to me that the Wales and planking are wrong in the Sergal kits. I had read this before, somewhere. I don't know if they have changed them in the newer kits or not. My plans are different than the real ship. On these plans, the Wales don't cut through the gunport lines nearly as much as on the real ship. I  actually like this look, especially if the ship is stained and not painted.  I also like the top half painted and the bottom stained. I have looked at all the builds I  could on the internet and YouTube for this ship and found many variations of the Wales. I  guess if it looks good to the builder it is ok even if not entirely accurate. I know I  don't want to copper plate the hull ( unless I screw it up so bad it has to be covered). I like the wood showing. I have wrestled with this part since I  decided to do the build and probably won't decide until I get there in building. I am open to opinions though.

 

Mark Frazier 

[mfrazier]

Y.T.

 

If you don't mind, would you show me a side view of your victory?

 

Mark Frazier

[Old Collingwood]

Hiya mate,   how could I have missed the start of this  - my appologies,   anyway  I will  pull up a bunk and follow  along if I may.

 

OC.