Ship's lifeboat by Cathead - Model Shipways - FINISHED - scale unknown - small

[Cathead]

Model Shipways (Model Expo) has a series of plank-on-frame small-boat kits (they call them "lifeboats" for some reason) that seem to represent a generic ship's boat during the age of sail. They come in different lengths but otherwise seem pretty interchangeable. These are quite cheap and seemed attractive, so I bought a couple for use with a larger project and quickly found that both instructions and kit were severely lacking. A bit of subsequent research on MSW (should've done this first) found multiple people complaining about these kits. For example, see a discussion within a larger build starting here and this 2013 build log for the kit itself. I wasn't planning a build log for what should have been a simple mini-project, but I'm so annoyed at the poor quality of instructions, materials, and kit design that I decided to document my attempt(s) to wrangle a usable result to help others who might fall into the same trap. I don't yet know how this will turn out, so follow at your own risk.

 

Note that the kit has no published scale, which is actually one of the annoyances. They come in a wide variety of lengths but seem to use all the same materials, so you have to guess what scale any given boat might match. Handling the parts, I think the apparent scale is going to be too big for my 1:64 parent project. I bought the 3-3/16" (81 mm) version, but as far as I can tell the same instructions and methods apply for all of them.

 

UPDATE: Having now built two of these, I learned quite a bit about what to do and not do. You can either read through the whole thread below, or you can skip to my final post with a list of specific suggestions for surviving an attempt to build these little "kits from hell" as someone else called them. It is possible to get a decent-looking result, at least by my standards:

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Cathead

[Cathead]

Instructions

The instructions are horrible, with grainy, dark photos that completely obscure any useful details. The written portion isn't much better, as it lacks sufficient detail to explain what you're actually supposed to do in most steps while referring you to the useless photos. I found it far easier to refer to the MSW threads linked above, which is why I decided to start this log as well in hopes of providing better guidance.

 

Materials

The materials are basswood (I believe), with a variety of strip stock, a few laser-cut parts, and a solid board for building on. I lightly prestained everything on the instructions' advice, since trying to paint or stain after assembly risks dissolving the glue holding these delicate parts together, especially in the interior.

An immediate annoyance was finding that the slots in the laser-cut keel and hull formers, which are supposed to accept 1/16" square stock, were far too thin and needed significant sanding to widen. This is a delicate task with fragile parts. In the photo below, see if you can tell that the supposedly square stock very much isn't, something you need to keep in mind when sanding slots and choosing which orientation to try bending it in.

Here's an example of the poor fit. In the former at the top of the photo, the upper slot has been sanded to accept a piece of "square" stock, the lower slot has not. All the notches in the keel have been sanded wider.

There are four of these formers, around which you're expected to bend 1/16" "square" stock to form ribs for planking over. It's a tall order, that's a thick piece to bend in such a tight curve, and the little laser-cut tabs meant to hold the ribs in place can't hold the tension. Various people have reported breaking the ribs and/or formers trying to make this will. I'll report on my attempt in the next post.

 

 

[Cathead]

Bending the initial ribs

One annoyance with the formers for the ribs is that you have to cut the square stock to exactly the right length for the curve. It would be a lot easier if the formers let the piece extend beyond the needed curve, where you could just nip it off later. This would also make bending stock easier for two reasons: (1) it gives you a place to clamp beyond the curve itself, and (2) it elimates any crimping or deforming from the clamp on the piece to be used. But nope, you have to get the length right. I used a piece of flexible styrene to "measure" each rib and transfer the curved length to a straight piece of pre-cut wood:

I cut the ribs slightly too long so I could make final adjustments, but this was easier than trying to bend a much longer piece into these formers. 1/16" is pretty thick to bend around this curve, and others reported that soaking in water (per the instructions) did not give enough flexibility and the ribs just splintered. So I followed their advice and used isopropyl alcohol instead, soaking pieces in a small plastic container for ~20 minutes:

Bending these was still really difficult. The formers couldn't handle the strain and the first one broke its outside tab as soon as I applied any curving pressure to it. Instead, I used paint caps and a thick dowel to bend these. Even so, they didn't take the curve cleanly and tended to crimp into angles. I dug out an old pair of bending shears (with one flat side and one angle side) and used these to further crimp the stock into a curve. Here's what this looked like clamped into the dowel, and afterward:

 

Those are pretty awful bends, and I was working slowly and carefully with a lot of finger-massaging of the wood. Basswood is just too soft to take the pressure needed to form tight curves like this, and by the time you use clamps strong enough to force it to stay in place, it get horribly deformed. These ended up about 1/2 their original dimension once I got the curve remotely acceptable, especially after using the crimping shears again to eliminate the worst kinks. Luckily these are internal components in a very small model. But this is still ugly and problematic for any modeller trying to build this kit. To return to a theme, this is NOT "a pleasurable experience" as the instructions claim it will be.

 

Once the ribs had dried in the sun, I placed them over the formers and glued them in at the very ends as directed. Ironically, I didn't need to sand these slots wider, because the highly compressed ribs (from clamping and crimping) fit with excessive room to spare. I ended up putting lots of glue in these slots to ensure they'd stay in place. The binder clip on the lower one is where the former tab that's supposed to hold the curve broke off, so more pressure was needed there.

 

Keel assembly

Meanwhile, I started on the keel, which has very vague instructions. You're supposed to attach square stock flush with the inside bottom of the keel, then form a tight curve following the stem. There are no drawings of what this is supposed to look like or where on the keel/stem it's supposed to run, and the photos are useless. I simply guessed after consulting other MSW attempts, based on having build several other small-boat kits. The curved part was bent around a bottle cap after soaking and crimping, as described above:

I'm including photos from two angles because the instructions don't actually say where to put the triangular transom and bow formers. If you put them flush with the upper part of the keel, there's a strange gap beneath them that doesn't make sense. But if you set them against the lower keel, they don't line up at the top. I went with flush at the top as a best guess. Fairing those very delicated (and smooshed) stem parts is going to be a treat.

 

That's as far as I got on Day 1 of this model. We'll see what happens as I move forward. I wrote Model Expo to ask if they have a digital version the instructions with better photos. Even so, the text leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Cathead

[mtaylor]

I don' think they have better instructions.  Those kits have been around for a long time.  I tried those little boat kits and never could get them to work.  For my Licorne, I used a Master Korabel kit (the biggest one).  I had to make 3 so two kits and one kit that I enlarged as it needed to be 6" long.   The two boats that were stacked inside were just the kits with a few mods to make them look French.

 

 

[Jim Rogers]

I have launched 4 of these kits from hell against the wall. My hat is off to anyone that has the patience to finish one. I went with the Russian small boat kits and love them.

[Cathead]

I probably should have gone with the Master Korabel. I had an odd mental block that they were 1:72 and my project was 1:64, which is dumb since not even knowing the scale of the ME ones should make them even less attractive. And it ought to be easier to make a too-small boat look right than a too-large one. Oh well, it's now becoming a stubborn sort of challenge. And if I can either protect or guide other builders regarding these little mousetraps, all the better.

[jwvolz]

The problem with these boats is even if you manage to pull off the build, the shape is just horrible. They look nothing like any prototype. 

 

On my Cruizer I used one of Caldercraft's nice resin boats. I was painting it anyway, and it detailed up very nicely. 

 

Good luck with that ME boat. 

[Stimpy]

I wish you would have built this several weeks ago. I built two of the smallest sizes to replace the canoe looking boats supplied 

with the CHAPERON. I ended up using card stock strips because I could not bend the 1/16" to that small of a radius. The turned out ok.

I will be following this to see how you over come all the troubles I had. GOOD LUCK.

Mike

[Cathead]

This is the kit that just keeps on giving. Here’s how I overcame the latest challenges

Build board assembly

This boat is meant to be built upside-down, with the tops of the formers glued to a build board to hold the ribs and keel stable while planking. This is sensible, and matches other small-boat kits I’ve built, but once again poor design and instructions get in the way.

The instructions tell you to glue four sets of square stock to the build board, 1” apart, between which the rib formers will sit. Problem is, they use the same instructions for all different size boats, so odds are 1” isn’t the right spacing. Luckily, I was forewarned by a previous build and probably would have checked that anyway, but it would be an easy mistake to make. This an example of poor design, because you need the formers to be spaced exactly as they are on the keel to keep the ribs straight, and any filing you might have done to widen the slots in the keel could change that spacing. Also, you're better off gluing on the formers first, then adding the stock, rather than the stock first and hoping the formers fit. This is especially true as the ribs change shape and width during bending, so they're not the same width as the formers by the time you're ready to do this. Therefore, I decided to glue on the #1 former, add stock around it, then measure the rest physically using the actual keel.

This let me discover another problem: the stem is too tall for the assembly! When you try to invert the keel and slide it down onto the rib, you find that the stem hits the build board well before the rib enters the notch! Also, the solid bow former that they told you to glue in place right away is also too high, and hits the square stock before the keel notch can settle onto the rib. Thank goodness I started with only #1 and didn't follow the instructions. Both problems can be seen below:

 

I gave up on the build board at this point and decided to put the rest of the rib formers in by eye. At that point, I found that I had to refile the slots in the keel, because the ribs had widened from soaking (and possible crimping while bending), so the slots were once again too narrow. Of course, despite being very careful and doing this with gentle pressure on a solid surface, I broke the keel at slot #2:

 

I decided that glue alone wouldn’t fit such a delicate break, so figured that maybe gluing it together with the rib would be better. So I set up a temporary “build board” on a metal square using clamps, and glued formers #2-4 into their slots (while regluing the broken keel). I aligned these by eye, which I think worked pretty well under the circumstances:

I decided to leave out former #1 (it should be where the foremost clamp is) because (a) it’s glued to the build board now and (b) it creates a really sharp turn in the planking at the bow, which I’m suspicious of. I want a narrower bow, both to avoid planking problems with delicate materials and because that would look a bit more like the boat I want (a riverboat yawl rather than a maritime ship’s boat). I then glued frames #2-4 to the original build board, leaving #1 in place on its own until I bother to chip it off:

This, at least, gives me a sensible place to start from. There's some really delicate fairing to do and I'll probably add more bracing between various formers. We'll see what new excitement comes in the next chapter.

 

Thanks for the various comments from folks who've tried these. I hope you'll stick around as I struggle through. I already have several ideas for how to adapt the second one to be easier and better and will log that too.

[mbp521]

Eric,  

 

I feel your pain on these. Several years ago I built these particular “lifeboats” for my Flying Fish. More than once I was ready to launch them into the never while trying to get the ribs formed around the formers. What I ended up doing was taking three strips of thin stock, soaking them in warm water for an hour or so and applying three layers around the former to “laminate” them. This worked perfectly to get the right shape. After making four of these for this build, I swore I wouldn’t make another one. For my Chaperon I built the MS  kits that have the stackable layers that you sand to shape. These worked better and with less frustration. The only drawback to these is the seats are thin and susceptible to breaking. That’s why I mounted mine keel up. The overall look is good, the layers give the look of planking. 

 

-Brian 

[mtaylor]

For the ribs, soak and then use a curling iron to bend them.  That worked for me.  After that point.... things went really down hill, really fast.

[Cathead]

Planking is complete. It actually wasn't as bad as I feared, once I had the frames set up. Just very delicate and needing a lot of patience. Garboard plank:

I soaked each plank in water for a few minutes, clamped it until dry, then glued it in place. Clamps mostly worked, but for some curves I needed to use fingers and patience.

I made one mistake, getting carried away with the bow planking and not starting to taper each one. I've been doing a lot of reading on Scandavian ship-building and let that style get into my head. So this started developing a noticeably Viking prow that had to be nipped in the bud. I did this by notching one plank into the next one down, then running another over it with a full taper to a point. This isn't very authentic, but it was an effective fix to get the upper planks parallel with the sheer line. As the outside will be painted, and this is only 3" long and will be a detail on a much larger model, I think it's ok. I'll do a better job on the other one. The notch:

And the fix:

All but the last plank installed:

Taking the hull off the formers was easy, I just used a pair of nippers to cut through each rib, as expected by the instructions and kit design. The last few photos show the hull with the final strake installed, ready for further refining and detailing.

It's definitely rough, but it's only 3" long and made of soft and crappy materials. I'm pretty pleased. With some careful sanding and proper detailing, this will actually serve pretty nicely. The worst part is those awful oversized and crimped ribs, but I'm going to try to hide them under benches and use smaller stock to fill in the gaps.

 

I think I was absolutely right to leave off former #1, as this led to a much narrow run of the bow and much easier planking. It also looks more like the kind of boat I'm going for than the very bluff-bowed kit design that would likely have been much harder to bend planks around. I'm going to develop a series of tips for people building this model, and that's one of them.

 

Next I'll detail and finish this, then attempt kit #2 with the knowledge I've gained and see if I can do a better job. Thanks for reading!

 

 

[Cathead]

Forgot to respond to others:

 

Brian, the idea of using thinner strips for the ribs is something I plan to try in the next boat. I hadn't thought of laminating them, that's a good idea, I just thought I would see how using one would work. Your idea would be stronger.

 

Mark, it's funny you mention a curling iron, I actually have one and completely forgot about it. That would have been smart.

[mtaylor]

You did a great job, Eric.  I tip my had to you as I think you're one of a very tiny percentage to actually get one of these done and looking good.

[Cathead]

The first boat is finished. With the hull done, the rest was pretty straightforward. I sanded the outside to a reasonable finish, though the planks are too thin to completely remove the clinker-like artifacts, and painted it white. Inside, I added more ribs (also using the planking shears for a consistent, if not attractive, appearancew). I used the thin planking strips for this, as the 1/16" square stock is way too thick to look realistic and got crimped down to the narrower thickness during bending anyway. I then laid a new floor of three planks to hide the ugly braces they tell you to add along the keel for planking (unnecessary in my opinion), then added various seats and details. I then carved rails from the wider stock supplied in the kit. Internal coloration used careful washes of thinned paint and/or dry rubbed pastels. Final details involved making oarlocks and something for the boat to sit on. I didn't add the rudder or make oars as I'm going to say these were stored out of the weather. See four photos below of the finished boat, including one of its intended final location:

So that's done. But don't change the channel just yet! Coming up next, I build boat #2 using the various lessons I learned from boat #1, to see if I can get a better result and a smoother set of instructions for others. I've already identified several improvements that are working well as I get started on this. When it's done, I'll write up a concise and comprehensive set of suggestions for anyone who decides to tackle one of these despite the warnings.

[mbp521]

Eric, 

 

Very nice job!  If mine had come out looking that good I would have put it upside right. Looking forward to the next “lessons learned” version. 

 

-Brian

[mtaylor]

Nice work, Eric.  It came out looking great.

[Cathead]

The second boat is done, I think it came out equally nicely. The kits provide so much extra wood that I was able to complete both boats using materials only from the first kit, except the actual laser-cut keels and formers. Here's a quick slideshow of the second boat's development. Next I'll post a list of suggestions for tackling these kits (improving on the very poor instructions).

Laying the first planks. I left out rib former #1 (nearest the bow) as this is really wide and creates a sharp, bluff bow that's difficult to plank. I wanted a sharper bow anyway. For the ribs, I didn't even try using the 1/16" square stock as it's way too thick for easy use or accurate appearance. Instead, I used the much thinner planking stock and cut its width down to something more realistic. Looks much better and didn't crimp nearly as badly as in boat #1. Someone suggested laminating several strips, but I didn't need to, one held up just fine.

Planking continued, showing my clamping methods. I didn't soak any of the planks for this boat, as I found it wasn't necessary with the improved bow shape. Instead, I shaped each plank to fit, then marked its exact location on the central three ribs. I glued each one to those ribs, then once that was dry glued the bow and stern portions with their bends. The original gluing held the plank in place and the strips are thin enough to accept even the near-90° bends I gave them, with slow application. Here you can see the bow portion sticking out, waiting to be glued and clamped once the rest is dry. This worked great and saved a ton of time.

 

I didn't try to finish planking the hull while attached the build board as there's no place to apply clamps once the planking gets close to the board. Rather, I cut the boat off early and finished the planking on the loose model. Below is the boat cut loose without its last strake. I think you could cut it off with the last two strakes missing and be fine. This also shows the extra ribs fit into the open hull, which I made by cutting planking strips into narrower pieces that look better.

 

Fully planked hull with floor added and braces for the seats.

Three views of the finished boats. They look pretty similar, but #2 took half the time as #1 due to some of my changed methods, and I think looks better with thinner and less deformed ribs:

 

Next post will share a detailed set of suggestions for working on this.

 

 

[Cathead]

These little Model Shipways lifeboat kits have serious problems but you can get a decent result if you ignore various parts of the instructions. Here are my suggestions, having built a couple of these. I STRONGLY advise not trying these kits if you’re new to model building or planking; you need to have some idea what you’re doing before tackling these, even with the suggestions below. Frankly, I advise not buying these at all, but you can get a usable result if you insist or are already stuck with one you bought unawares.

Suggestions for building these kits, organized by the step numbers given in the kit instructions:

1.       Step 1: Assembling the keel

a.       Don’t bother gluing 1/16” square stock to the keel. It’s not necessary to hold the garboard plank in place and just creates more work trying to sand/file into the curve of the hull. It also gets in the way of laying a nice internal floor later on.

b.       Similarly, don’t bother bending and gluing this square stock up the curve of the bow. It’s really hard to do and isn’t necessary. Your planks will attach to the bow just fine with sufficient glue; since the internal part of the bow isn’t open to view here, it doesn’t matter if you use excess glue to achieve this and it’s a lot easier than trying to form this piece.

c.       Thus, Step 1 is just to glue the bow and transom formers to the keel.

2.       Step 2: Applying the main ribs

a.       Don’t bother using rib former #1 unless you really want a bluff-bowed boat. It makes a much sharper curve toward the bow that’s really hard to plank; leaving it out gives you a sharper bow but a much easier planking task. If you want a bluff-bowed boat, try the Master Korabel kits instead as they seem to be of better quality.

b.       Don’t make the ribs from the 1/16” square stock. Not only is it too thick to bend easily (and will likely crimp into ugly shapes), it’s too large for scale and looks terrible. Just use single pieces of the thinner planking stock; this will take the bend easily and is strong enough to support the planking.

c.       To help form the curve more smoothly, soak these strips in water, then bend them around a dowel of similar diameter, holding them in place with clamps. Once they dry, they’ll be a lot easier to place into the rib formers, and won’t crimp as easily. This also gives you more consistent curves.

d.       The planking strips (and the suggested square strips) are thicker than the formers. When you glue the ribs in place on these formers, make sure one side is flush with the former surface (rather than centering them on the former).

e.       After the glue has dried, use sandpaper or a sharp knife to trim the ribs to the same thickness as the formers. This will create a more accurate width for the ribs and they’ll still be sufficient to support the planking.’

3.       Step 3: Creating the building jig

a.       Don’t attach the rib formers to the build board unless you carefully mark their exact location based on the notches in the keel. Do NOT follow the instructions in gluing the formers 1” apart on the board, this doesn’t match the boat dimensions! I just glued the ribs into the keel freehand, using my eye and a square to get them straight. Once these were dried, I flipped the assembly over and glued it to the board, adding bracing afterward.  In other words, do this in the exact reverse order the instructions suggest (ribs to keel, formers to board, braces to board). I also added braces around the stem and stern, which were very useful for added stability during later sanding work.

4.       Step 4: Assembling the hull frame

a.       I did not glue any 1/16” square strips to the ribs as suggested. These are too thick to bend easily and don’t look realistic anyway. They’re completely unnecessary. I did fair the bow and transom formers, but the thinner ribs need barely any fairing.

5.       Step 5: Planking the hull

a.       Do plank the transom first as suggested, which allows you to ensure that its outside can be sanded fair with the former and accept the planking. The instructions are completely nonsense in stating that planking will require 22 strakes; my boats required 6 strips per side. This may be an artifact of the same instructions being used for lots of different size kits (like the 1” former spacing).

b.       Do not start planking at the sheer line as suggested in the instructions; this will make life much harder as you try to fit planks into ever-narrow spaces as you go down. Instead, start with the garboard and work your way up. Do start tapering planks at the bow right away so you achieve a reasonable level line of planking as you go; if you don’t, you’ll get Viking-style planking curving up way too much at the bow. You shouldn’t need any stealers if you pay attention.

c.       Stop planking with one or two strakes to go. It gets very hard to clamp planks at this point because the build board gets in the way. Instead, remove the boat from the board at this point by cutting the ribs right where they enter the formers. The boat will be strong enough to hold its shape and accept the last few strakes, and using clamps from the open top of the boat is way easier.

6.       Step 6: Separating the hull. This is mooted by my suggestion in 5c; remove the boat BEFORE planking is completed.

7.       Step 7: Filling in ribs

a.       Make extra ribs the same way you did the original ribs, by bending soaked planking strips (NOT 1/16” square stock) around a dowel and letting dry. Then they’ll be really easy to insert into the hull and cut to length. Like the original ribs, cut or sand these down to a more realistic width.

8.       Steps 8, 9, & 10: Mounting the seats and bow platform

a.       Instead of running a consistent strake all the way around the inside of the hull to support the seats, I just inserted short supports between ribs where the seats and other platforms needed to go. A lot easier and looks fine.

b.       The bow platform can be installed however you want; at this point the boat is solid and you can adapt the internal details to be whatever you desire.

9.       Steps 11 & 12. Mounting the railing and rudder, finishing touches

a.       I made the railing in the opposite order as the instructions; starting from the bow and working after. I held each ¼” strip against the hull, drew the outside curve with a pencil, then hand-cut the rails.  Like the previous steps, all this is discretionary and can be done lots of different ways. I shaped the rails off the model as I wanted to paint/stain them before installation, whereas gluing the strips on first and then carving them is both harder (in my opinion) and makes it more difficult to apply a different color than the main hull later on.

b.       Otherwise, all finishing touches are builder’s discretion. You’re past the hard part, do what you like.

 

This post is now linked from the updated first post of this thread, along with a few pictures. Hope this is helpful to someone in future.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Cathead

[mtaylor]

Excellent work and an excellent tutorial on these little beasts.  You've tamed them.

[Cathead]

Thanks, Mark. I should note that I could have improved them a bit more by using different wood (such as cutting the cap rails out of one sheet to avoid seams) but really wanted to stick with the kit supplies for review/guidance purposes. Someone could in theory buy this just for the frames and design, then use better wood throughout.

[Stimpy]

They turned out great. I wish I had this information before I built mine. I thought I was just not understanding the instructions.

But it turns out I was not the only one.

Mike

[Brad NSW]

Bought this kit to replace a lifeboat on my Constellation that suffered from moves to Hawaii, Monterey, CA, Scotland, San Diego, Bahrain and now Colorado.  1st pic is of the destroyed cheap pot metal boat that came with the Artesia Latina kit.  2nd pic shows the laminated strips in a jig, nest to the best result I got using the wood provided in the kit.  3rd pic shows the ribs glued on the forms, ready to go on the frame spacing jig.

I used three pear wood strips glued over the forms to make the laminated ribs.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Brad NSW

[Brad NSW]

Here's a photo of planking.  I'm using thin strips of pear wood.

 

Like  Cathead, I found the 1st frame way too big and impossible to fair in.  Instead of omitting it, I moved it back into one of the slots I created between each of the 4 frames.  Placing it here, seems to give a fairly decent bow profile.

[Cathead]

Hey Brad, great to see you're giving this model a shot. If you're interested in continuing to share photos and lessons as you go, might you consider starting a separate build log for the model to document your work?

[mtaylor]

I quite agree with what Cathead suggested.   Open a log on your Constellation and add the ship's boats.

[Brad NSW]

7 hours ago, mtaylor said:

I quite agree with what Cathead suggested.   Open a log on your Constellation and add the ship's boats.

Mark/Cathead...Will do.  Figured someone might want it all in one post if they got the kit.

 

Brad

[David W]

I sure am happy to have found this now elderly thread since I just ordered the 122mm (~4.75") version for my Amati Fifie. Even with the pain of building this little boat, it has to be better then what Amati supplied. I have probably 10-12 hours of frustration with that boat, includind repairing the keel and replacing one disintegrated former. You just can't make 1/16" pressed cardboard (MDF) work. Eric, thanks for the excellent post build critique and fixes. I have tis separately book marked👍

Edited February 6, 2023 by David W

[Cathead]

Who you callin' elderly? I'm 42!

 

Jokes aside, so glad this was useful to you, and good luck with the project!

[David W]

35 minutes ago, Cathead said:

Who you callin' elderly? I'm 42!

 

Jokes aside, so glad this was useful to you, and good luck with the project!

Ahhh to see 42 again. 10x binoculars wouldn't even help me.

That model couldn't be any worse then what I got from Amati for a lot more bucks. I'll pirate materials from the existing boat and adapt. Leaving the #1 bulkhead out seems like a winner. Again, thanks for your great write up and critique