ancre Le Rochefort by No Idea - 1/24th Scale - First POF Build

[ChrisLBren]

Looks terrific Mark !!!!!

[Hubac's Historian]

Brilliant, clean work Mark.  Whatever small gaps you may be seeing can be caulked with finish.  I can’t see them myself.

[No Idea]

2 hours ago, Tonphil1960 said:

Mark, no matter which other refs I have and or other builds to follow for advice yours is the one, Tobias's will be another.  Looking again closely since I've started mine I may as well just throw all of it in the bin and start over !!  I won't bet its tempting.  Your joinery is fantastic. 

Tony 

 Tony you will get there mate and if its any consolation I made most of my frames twice and the axial parts too.  Some will think what a waste of wood but it's not.  It's a learning process and experience that I'm sure we all go through and probably still are if we are honest.  Keep going and trying your best 👍

[No Idea]

Thanks chaps for the nice comments - I'm glad this part of the build is complete I did find it quite hard to do.  

 

I now understand why some builders only put the thick stuff on and leave it at that.  Its a shame that most of it will be covered up by other decks but I know its there and done as best as I could.

 

I'm starting the breast hooks tomorrow so hopefully have an update soon - thanks for all of the encouragement and likes as it does help get through the more difficult parts of the build 👍

[No Idea]

Just a quick update - I was asked quite a lot of questions about the last breast hook that I made and how I got it to fit.

 

So here's my technique and I do this to save wasting time and wood.  I use some very thin off cuts and glue the templates on.

 

I then use these to get a pretty good fit as its quick and easy with little wood to remove compared to the actual breast hook.  I hold them in place with a tiny drop of PVA glue to check my marking out of the positions and also the level comparative to each other.

 

They come off very easily and these are now my templates for the actual hooks.  A couple of pictures are better then a thousand words!

 

I can now get on and make the actual things!

 

Cheers Mark

[Tonphil1960]

Thanks Mark, yes I finally got my keel together it’s drying now. It’s not bad but it’s not great either. In the bigger picture though small flaws aren’t as noticeable when they’re attached to an entire ship.  One thing I just saw going through your log again is you built the keelson after you installed all the frames.  I built a keelson but I see if I wait I can build it to fit perfectly to fit its place and especially the frames. That’s what I’ll do.  

[No Idea]

1 minute ago, Tonphil1960 said:

Thanks Mark, yes I finally got my keel together it’s drying now. It’s not bad but it’s not great either. In the bigger picture though small flaws aren’t as noticeable when they’re attached to an entire ship.  One thing I just saw going through your log again is you built the keelson after you installed all the frames.  I built a keelson but I see if I wait I can build it to fit perfectly to fit its place and especially the frames. That’s what I’ll do.  

Hi mate - yes this was an error through my lack of experience as this is my first POF build.

 

If I was building this ship again I would use your technique and build the keelson after making the axial parts to ensure a good line up.  I think it's safe to say I got lucky!  It did line up but it could have easily not lined up too.  I took that as a fluke but next time I'll build it first.  The entire frame must be built as a complete entity or at least that what I have found.

 

The other thing I will never do again is photocopy all of the axial parts.  I will buy a second set of plans from Ancre and cut them up instead.  I have tried so many companies to copy them exactly and none of them are accurate enough.  It would have been cheaper just to get an extra set of plans.

 

We learn so much as we go along but wow what a ride eh!  Tony I built my keel twice as my first effort was not quite straight.  If I had of used it can you even imagine the corrections that I would be making now.  The knock on effect to me just isn't even worth thinking about.  Good luck mate and if I can help in any way please just ask  

[Tonphil1960]

Yes I’ll put the keelson I made aside and see how it looks when the frames are in. Building it to fit is the way to go. If the rising wood slots and keelson slots aren’t spot on it’s going to be a mess.  I still have to figure out how I’m going to cut the slots in the frames. That’s going to be a headache. I may make new rising wood too to make sure that’s a good fit also.  Thanks.   Happy New Year ! 

[ChrisLBren]

Guys dont tell me this !!!  I am very concerned about the accuracy of my parts once I raise the frames on my LGV.  My frames and rising wood could have been much more accurate had I cut them out with my TAIG vs the Proxxon.  

 

Nice technique Mark - Ill have to use this tip.  

[dvm27]

15 hours ago, No Idea said:

The other thing I will never do again is photocopy all of the axial parts.  I will buy a second set of plans from Ancre and cut them up instead.  I have tried so many companies to copy them exactly and none of them are accurate enough.  It would have been cheaper just to get an extra set of plans.

Photocopying works out if you have  one foot X and Y axis's printed on the part to be copied. Most copy stores machines allow you to adjust the X and Y axis's for slight adjustments and usually don't charge for the trial and error of slight adjustments.

 

Just curious - how are you measuring the heights inside the hull for the clamps, hooks etc.? Are you using a height gauge or measuring up from the inner surface of the rising wood?

Edited January 1, 2023 by dvm27

[No Idea]

Hi Greg 

 

I’m using a digital height gauge that I’ve adapted to reach over to the inside of the hull. There’s a pencil on the end so it makes the marking out much easier.  I always use the very bottom of the keel as my datum and literally measure everything from this point. 
 

So I zero the height gauge (The tip of the pencil) on the base of the building board and go from there. It seems to give me good results 

 

Cheers Mark 

[No Idea]

Another update from me and I have to say its been very nice making parts instead of planking 🤣

 

So starting with the very lowest breast hook- This part is not flat but is curved to match the deck that rests upon it.  It is also recessed as it receives the first beam of that deck too.  

 

This hook is supposed to be recessed for the stem apron as well but I've obviously done something wrong way back when I made the hawse timbers.  So instead I opted (was forced) to make it the fit as best that I could.

 

Next was to make and fit the beam that is attached to it

Which was then trimmed to shaped - Its worth noting that the beam must stand proud of the hook as the hook is angled down towards the keel.  This can be seen in the lower picture.

This assembly was then glued in place in the hull at the correct height but more on that later.

Then I made the middle breast hook which needed to be scribed in to match the hulls shape which I seem to have sanded a little too much on the port side.  This wasn't difficult to do just time consuming to get a decent fit.  Once again I could not recess this hook into the stem either.

Next was to make the 3 beams that complete the small deck at the bow.  These are really easy to make and extremely difficult to fit accurately.  Luckily I only wasted one beam.

The second beam and middle hook after being installed

Now going back to Greg's excellent point about marking out the inside of the hull which I do find quite difficult I thought it best to show how I installed all of the beams and hooks at the correct height.

 

Looking at the drawing and working from the very bottom of the keel as my constant datum you can see that the crown of the beams should be 65mm high.  You can also see the small step in beam number one and the angle of the lower hook too.

So I use my height gauge but anything that can hold the correct height can be used.  It was zero'd on the base board and not the work surface and then set at 65mm.

This then allowed me to gently sand away the ends of the beams until they sat in the correct place and at the correct height.  If I put a small ruler across all of the beams it is flat so I'm very happy with that.  Here's a picture that explains things far better

A few pictures of the beams all in place.  It's also worth noting that there is a hatch to be fitted between beams 2 and 3 so the distance between them is very important.  

I was really pleased with my marking out for the cut aways on beam 4 - I don't think I could have got it an closer!

 

Next parts to make are the mast step and the stern sleepers - Thanks for all of your comments and like's - Mark  

 

 

[druxey]

Nice, clean and accurate cutting, Mark!

[captain_hook]

Very nice work! 

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

Nice, clean and accurate cutting, Mark!

Thanks druxey - one of the fantastic things about this monograph is; if you look all of the angles you need to cut they are already drawn for you.  I found that they just needed a small adjustment to fit my sometimes wonky build.

 

40 minutes ago, captain_hook said:

Very nice work! 

Thanks captain_hook 👍  I'm really enjoying building this little ship. 

[No Idea]

Hi All

 

I've been working on the mast step and what a lovely little piece this is to make.  It's like making a miniature piece of furniture due to its many angles and precise joints.  I guess it was made that way due to the amount of stresses it must have received from the mast.

 

The step is made of two thickness materials.  The outer pieces are 6mm and the inner 5mm.

After sanding and milling the parts look like this

Here's the profile of the inner pieces which I cut to an angle of 7 degrees.  It then has a taper at the bottom so that it sits correctly on the keelson.

All assembled with the relevant nails.  I used 0.28mm carbon for the first time for the very small nails and I think they look alright.

Finally fitted into the hull

The next job is to make the stern sleepers - Cheers Mark

[James G]

My gosh that is beautiful work. We’ll done!

[JpR62]

My God, it's accurate. Wonderful work!

[No Idea]

On 1/8/2023 at 12:19 PM, James G said:

My gosh that is beautiful work. We’ll done!

Thanks Jim

On 1/8/2023 at 12:32 PM, JpR62 said:

My God, it's accurate. Wonderful work!

Thanks Jean Paul  

 

Onto the stern sleepers - These are another really easy piece to make but very difficult to get them to sit correctly on the stern.  I lost the first set but improved on the second.  Here's the sleepers ready to go on.

And here they are all fitted which I managed to get quite a tight fit to the hull.  Also fitted are the beams for the small deck at the stern which will also have a hatch.  This deck is not horizontal with the keel but has a very gentle slope downwards.  They were installed in exactly the same way as the forward deck beams.

I'm going to make the pump well next but to ensure the correct placement I need to make a couple of the main beams first.  It's at this point when you realise what building in 1/24 scale is like as these beams are big pieces of wood.  

 

Thanks for all of the encouragement - Mark  

[Tonphil1960]

Just amazing Mark. I always thought I had the patience to press on for quality. I sure don't come close to yours !  So all your nails are the CF rod is that right ? 

Tony 

[Tobias]

Hi Mark fantastic work as always. 

[druxey]

Sleepers are very tricky to get 'just so'; you've made a super job of them, Mark!

[No Idea]

3 hours ago, Tonphil1960 said:

Just amazing Mark. I always thought I had the patience to press on for quality. I sure don't come close to yours !  So all your nails are the CF rod is that right ? 

Tony 

Hi Tony - Yes mate they are carbon fibre rod.  I can get most sizes really easily in the uk and it sands down at the same rate as the wood.  I know most builders prefer brass but I'm not overly keen on the shininess of it and also they are hard to sand down too when in wood.

3 hours ago, Tobias said:

Hi Mark fantastic work as always. 

Thanks Tobias 👍

1 hour ago, druxey said:

Sleepers are very tricky to get 'just so'; you've made a super job of them, Mark!

Cheers druxey - I was fortunate that the two sides are pretty much identical so once I got one to fit the other just followed as I already had a pattern.  They do take time though there's no doubt about it!  I find getting the beams to fit exactly harder to fit funnily enough; as you are lining them up on more than one axis and they keep on moving from where you put them 😂

[No Idea]

Just a quick update as I'm a little bit happy with something.  So today I made a few main beams which are huge.  They are each made from a piece that is 15mm x 7.9mm x 200mm.

Sorry I digress - I then fitted the two that I need for the dimensions of the pump well and I thought that I had better check that the build was going the right way.

 

So just like all of the other beams I checked the height at the crown of beams using my height gauge.

 

The beam according the drawings should be dropped into the deck clamps by 2.6mm to be at the correct height.  Mine need dropping by 3.0mm!!  I am so happy about this as I fitted the clamps ages ago and things have moved on since then.  I'll take being 0.4mm out everyday of the week 👍  It may be different at various points of the clamp I'll find out as I go along.

 

I just need to work out how to cut the dovetails in both the beams and clamps but I'll sort it.  I need to sit these beams at their final height to build the well.  A few of pictures of these beams in place and sorry for my little self indulgence but I'm well happy with this result!

Cheers Mark

 

 

[druxey]

0.4 mm? Tut, tut, Mark! Seriously, that is an impressive degree of accuracy that won't need much tweaking at all.

[dvm27]

Planning ahead is key to success in this type of project. You may also need the quarterdeck and forecastle beams in some locations before fitting out the main deck.

 

You may wish to place a thin piece of rope from the stem to the sternpost (see Chuck's last post) as a site line to make sure your beams are consistently centered. It helps in determining which end of the beam to shave during fitting on the clamp.

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

0.4 mm? Tut, tut, Mark! Seriously, that is an impressive degree of accuracy that won't need much tweaking at all.

Trust me there was a huge bit of luck involved here 

1 hour ago, dvm27 said:

Planning ahead is key to success in this type of project. You may also need the quarterdeck and forecastle beams in some locations before fitting out the main deck.

 

You may wish to place a thin piece of rope from the stem to the sternpost (see Chuck's last post) as a site line to make sure your beams are consistently centered. It helps in determining which end of the beam to shave during fitting on the clamp.

Greg that a great idea as I just sight down the line with my eye which surprisingly I have found to be quite accurate but this will be better.

 

Here's a question though - I have discovered after my initial happiness that the port side clamp at this point is about 1mm lower than the starboard side.  So to scale that is 25mm so nothing major but still a discrepancy.

I was thinking about dropping the starboard side slightly lower within the clamp with these 2 beams to pull them level.  But even if I do this the waterways will still be slightly lower.  

So is this something that I need to worry about as on such a large scale as it certainly wont be seen.  I've never tried for perfection as I'm just not experienced enough so my thoughts are just leave it but I'll be interested to see what others think.

[dvm27]

Unfortunately, you have "achieved perfection" so you'll just have to keep up that standard! What about adding a 1mm filler strip above the port side clamp? It would be invisible under the waterway.

[No Idea]

19 hours ago, dvm27 said:

Unfortunately, you have "achieved perfection" so you'll just have to keep up that standard! What about adding a 1mm filler strip above the port side clamp? It would be invisible under the waterway.

Hi Greg you completely blew me away with this comment - I just didn't know how to reply yesterday.  Thanks for your really nice comment 👍

 

So I took a step back and decided to do a full measurement of the clamps as I was unsure if one side was high and required sanding or the other was low.  I was actually hoping that I had put the starboard side a bit high but no......I was right and the port side was roughly on average 1mm too low.

 

So I've taken your advice and added a strip today to get me to the correct level which needs feathering in towards the stern.  I'm very glad that I have done this as sometimes it's so easy just to plough forward with a build and not reflect where you are.  Thanks for the advice and I'll have an update soon.

 

Cheers Mark 

[No Idea]

Well I have to say that I'm glad I paused and re-checked.  This morning after the 1mm strip that I put onto the port side had dried I checked every frame on each side for accuracy.

 

I found a high spot on the starboard side and also discovered that the port side was not completely 1mm incorrect.  In fact the clamp was slightly wavy 🥲

 

So I've spent today pulling both sides to their correct dimensions as thinking forward - if I don't do this now I'm going to have to make loads of alterations to the waterway to make it fit.  I'm sure it will still need fettling into place but nothing like it would have done had a not checked.

 

The results are great as I can actually see that the clamps run far straighter than they did and now I know that they are correct.

 

So after doing that I cut the dovetails into the two beams that I had made.

 

I then cut the receiving dovetails into the beams.  I cut these 2.5mm deep as apposed to the 2.4mm on the plans (Sorry druxey I'll try harder next time I promise 🤣)

The beams are now in place and the fit is really nice - even better they are bang on the money height wise with just a little left to sand out.

So now I can get on with the pump well as I now know its exact location.

 

I can't thank enough for the encouragement and making me re-think to get this right.

 

Cheers Mark

Edited January 12, 2023 by No Idea
Didn't make sense