ancre Le Rochefort by No Idea - 1/24th Scale - First POF Build

[DaveBaxt]

Really nice work shaping the pewter and looks amazing. Scuppers are another level of excellence.

[No Idea]

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

Looks amazing, so beautifully done! 

Thanks Chris that nice of you to say - Next time I'm in Gloucester I'm going to have to look you up 👍

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, DaveBaxt said:

Really nice work shaping the pewter and looks amazing. Scuppers are another level of excellence.

Thanks Dave I did learn quite a lot from this exercise.  Pewter is great to work with but cannot be soldered (I tried).  I also would not use cyano again either - the lumps you can see are hardened glue underneath the metal which would not smooth out.  Otherwise the finish would have been better - next time I will use 15 minute epoxy very lightly spread just to give enough time to get a better fit.  As for the scuppers I couldn't believe that the jib actually worked!  I though that the pewter would loose its roundness when sanded but it stayed as it was.  I'll take that as a win 

[mgatrost]

Wow, Your attention to detail is truly amazing. 

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, mgatrost said:

Wow, Your attention to detail is truly amazing. 

Hi mgatrost - welcome to the build mate.  Have a look on Ancre's website at all of their monographs.  The attention to detail that the draftsman/historians/madmen put into their works are amazing.  I feel that I need to do their work some kind of justice even if this my first scratch build.  Thanks for your comment but have a good look around the forum as some of the builds here are truly amazing  

[No Idea]

Another update from me - its all or nothing with me at the moment I can only apologise 😀

 

The final 2 breast hooks for the hawse timbers.  The upper one is made of 3 pieces which then go on to be attached to the forward deck beam supports.

The second is one piece  - so I dimensioned the wood and roughly cut them out as per usual.  It's worth noting that the upper breast hook is made from a piece that starts at 11mm thick.

The lower breast hook is very straight forward and is just like all of the others that I have made.  The only difference is that you have to cut a channel for the bowsprit which is set at 17 degrees.

Installation is also just as before - take your time and get a good fit onto the hawse timbers.  I see this bit as a challenge to get it as tight as possible.

Now the very top breast hook is a very different thing to make.  It has a gentle curve to match the clamp and the forward deck as the deck timbers sit directly onto it.  It is also parallel in thickness throughout its curve; is recessed onto the clamp and has to align with the bowsprit too.  I hope your keeping up 😆

So after a bit of thought this was my solution to making this piece which cost me quite a bit in wood as I didn't have anything else in the house other than Castello.  

Firstly I shaped the perimeter of it as per the drawings - this is the easy bit.  Next to shape the inside curve I attached it to an angle plate to ensure a 90 degree cut.

I then made a jig which matched the curve that I had just cut and once again attached it to an angle plate for a 90 degree cut.

Next was to cut the recess for the clamp and again cut another recess for the bowsprit

Then finally installation (btw this did take me 2 attempts to get right)

The bowsprit view which just needs a little fettling to bring it all to the final diameter.  You will notice that there is a small gap between the clamp and the breast hook.  One of the spin off benefits of making this part as accurate as possible is that it has put the correct curvature on the model for the forward deck.

Finally one of my most favourite pictures of my build so far - just a little tidying up needed.

Now I was going to start planking the outside of the hull next but I have realised that the bowsprit partners are a little vulnerable.  So instead I've decided to finish the forward deck first.  So I need to make the small office and the ships stove and quite a few other parts too.  I want to get the forward deck beams in before attempting any planking.

 

Can't thank you all enough for the likes, advice and encouragement  - cheers Mark

 

 

[Tonphil1960]

Mark. Your progress is amazing and quality fantastic.  Mine had been sitting not touched since April !  I will get it together and analyze where to start next after I'm finished with the plane I'm working on. Might never get back to Hope I do though. 

[No Idea]

Hi Tony thanks for your nice comments. I’m sure that you will be back on your ship in no time. 
I’ve changed tack now as I was going to make the forward deck. I soon realised that if I put the deck beams in it will make clamping the outer planking very difficult. So I’m currently trying to make the moulded planks which is something completely new for me. I’ve never scraped a shape into wood before or made a decent scraper so that’s what I’m experimenting with. I’ll get something up as soon as I make something that resembles a half decent mould. 

[No Idea]

Hi All

 

Ok I've made progress on the moulded planks so I can share that but I also need some advice moving forward.

 

Firstly I made the scraper in exactly the same fashion that Kevin Kenny made his - Kevin your a genius working out using the mill to make these it made the job quite simple.  Having said that it took me 4 attempts to get it right.

To help with the removal of the wood I used the table saw to cut away the deepest part of the shape to be scraped.

I don't know how everyone else uses a scraper?  I found the easiest way was to clamp it down and then just go for it.  It was a far more simple process than I thought it would be.  You know when you are at the right depth because the scrape actually feels different - it feels smooth is the best way that I can describe it.

Check against the drawing for accuracy.

And now I've got enough pieces to complete the job.  It took a morning to complete and it's a very relaxing process to carry out.  After making the shape I just had to put them back onto the table saw to cut them to the correct thickness.

So now I would like some advice from my fellow builders.  The drawings show that each strake is made up of 4 individual planks which are joined with a scarf joint (see below).  Now I've become quite good at scarf joints - however I think this may be a little too difficult to pull off as accurately as I would like.  Firstly the piece is not rectangular which means that the scarf would have to be angled width ways across the top section but parallel across the bottom.  Secondly that is a hell of a lot of detail to line up and look seamless. 

 

My feelings are that I should put practicality first here and make a simple butt joint and then nail it so it looks like a scarf joint.  Am I bailing out here?  Should I give it a go?  Let me know as I'm currently unsure of which way to go.

 

Cheers Mark

[DaveBaxt]

Excellent idea making those shapers with a horizontal milling head and wonderinng if I could do the same using a vertical milling head and clamping the knife blade vertical.  Your rails have turned out amazingly well.

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, DaveBaxt said:

Excellent idea making those shapers with a horizontal milling head and wonderinng if I could do the same using a vertical milling head and clamping the knife blade vertical.  Your rails have turned out amazingly well.

Hi Dave this idea works extremely well as you can simply make a drawing and then use the indexes on the axis to cut it pretty much exactly.  It's not my idea have a look at Kevin Kennys HMS Thorn thread and he's done a great video of his process.  Your idea of using a vertical mill is exactly the same and will definitely work.  Thanks for the comment about how they turned out - I'm pretty chuffed to be honest.  I've marked out the line on the hull for fitting but the problem of how to join the planks still remains.

[DaveBaxt]

 Hopefully someone will come along and help you out with that. I look forward to see you solving the issue of joining them together .

Edited November 26, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[No Idea]

Another update

 

I bottled it and decided not to put scarf joints into the moulded rail so I'm using simple butt joints instead.  I wanted the rail to look as best it could with all of the details lining up.  So I marked out the position both sides - I like to use automotive lining tape to see the run and I leave it on until the glue has dried.

I then bent and glued the rails on which needed quite a lot of heat to get a tight fit around the bow.  I have got a very tiny crack in it on the starboard side but I think it will be ok.

I really wanted to get a good joint into the rabit with this plank - I think it came out ok

So next I am going to make and fit the planking in between the whale and moulded rail.

 

Mark

[G. Delacroix]

The curvature of the rail is very elegant, well done!

 

GD

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Amazing ! 

[marsalv]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:40 PM, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Amazing ! 

I agree!!

[No Idea]

Hi All I hope that you all had a really nice Xmas and are looking forward to new year tonight like we are here in the UK.  Also thanks very much for the nice comments 

 

Some more done on Le Rochefort - I got on with the planking between the whale and rail.  As this blog is aimed at new builders like myself I thought I would share how I go about planking.  Funnily enough I see planking as a mathematical problem which just needs solving.  So first off at various places along the hull I measure the gap that the planks need to cover.  I then use this as my basis for the plank widths when shaping them up but also gives me my widest point which is what I cut the planks too on the table saw.  The picture shows that I need 3 planks 8.2mm wide that this point.

Then I cut the planks and shape them to my measurements that I have already taken.  I use a plank vice to hold them whilst planing them as I find I get the best results this way.

 

Then I just get planking  - you can never have too many clamps.  I also pierced the hawse holes and scupper holes at the bow too.  For some reason I always seem to plank one side better than the other!

 

 

 

Then I marked and cut out the scupper holes and also marked out the nailing pattern.  At this moment in time I must be honest I don't think I'm going to go all of the way through with the scupper holes along the hull.  I don't think I'm brave enough.

I've only nailed one side at the moment as for some reason I just can't get into it at the moment but so far the results are quite nice.

In-between nailing the planking I decided to have a go at making the bowsprit.  It is 14.5mm in diameter so to get a piece this thick I started by gluing two 10mm pieces together.

 

I don't have a lathe so I thought that I would give it a go on my rotary table on the milling machine.  Now this was fun as I don't have a support of any kind yet but I thought well let's give it a go anyway.

I guess I could have made something but the chatter wasn't too bad and I left some on to sand down at the end by hand.

I was going to cut the square location pin on the mill but in the end I simply did it by hand using a small saw and chisels.

The end result looks ok and its a pretty good fit.  I was never going to have full size masts on this build as rigging at this stage just does not appeal to me.  Maybe it will later in my building career?

So I just need to complete the nailing on the starboard side and then I can think of my next move on the ship.

 

Cheers Mark

 

[druxey]

Looks very nice, Mark.

 

For drilling scuppers, I start with a very small bit and drill from both sides. Hopefully the holes align, but if not, this can be corrected as one gradually opens out the hole. Again, work from both outside and inside. That way is less scary, for sure, and avoids any splintering out on an exit hole.

[No Idea]

8 minutes ago, druxey said:

Looks very nice, Mark.

 

For drilling scuppers, I start with a very small bit and drill from both sides. Hopefully the holes align, but if not, this can be corrected as one gradually opens out the hole. Again, work from both outside and inside. That way is less scary, for sure, and avoids any splintering out on an exit hole.

Thanks 👍  Thats a great idea using a small drill I hadn't thought of that so I am going to give this a try.  I do have a lot of material to remove from the water way to join the holes up as a square opening.  When I made the waterway I couldn't quite see how to cut the opening and get the angle right.  I can see it now and would do this differently in the future.  What a learning curve ship building is.

[No Idea]

Cheers @druxey that worked nicely.  I've tried it on one and slowly enlarged the hole up to 3mm.  Then I used a small milling bit to remove some of the excess material and finish the hole with a chisel and file.  I now have a nice rectangular scupper running through the hull.  It should look good when lined with pewter.

[Tobias]

Hello Mark, happy new year. I had some catching up to do. It all looks so perfect, I hope mine will only be half as good. I can only agree with you, planing the floorboards is the best option.

[druxey]

Well done! Glad this method works for you. It's worked for me for years for not only scuppers but for finishing hawse holes as well.

[No Idea]

Thanks Tobias but I can assure you that this build is far from perfect mate.  I'm constantly having to make allowances for earlier errors but I guess thats ship building for you.

 

The scuppers - The technique that druxey suggested to me works great for finding the line through the hull.  On this scale though it's a long way through the hull to make each side meet.  I guess you just have to be brave and get cracking with a chisel.  So first of all I cut the holes through as best that I could - I did pick up a little damage but nothing really to worry about.  I've also learnt that these small errors disappear in the long run as you simply stop seeing them.

 

Next I made a rectangular tube out of pewter - easy to make and difficult to fit through the hull - it just takes time.

Then I roughed the tube to the correct dimensions but left some on to sand down later.  Its worth noting that that the tube dimensions are slightly different from the outside to the inside.

Following on from my previous bad experience using cyano I glued these in using 20 minute epoxy resin.  I really like this glue - it gives loads of time to jiggle things around and cleans up easily with IPA.

Next was to make the end plates on the inside and outside.

So thats one side complete and now onto the starboard side - which I still haven't finished nailing yet!

 

Cheers Mark

[Mike Y]

Incredible build, how did I miss it before?   As usual - appreciate showing the build methods rather than the end result of each stage, learned a few tricks.

Very neat scuppers, so hard to make these tiny metal bits match the surface of the hull, but you did it nicely!

[druxey]

Those scuppers turned out really nicely! Well done.

[No Idea]

22 hours ago, Mike Y said:

Incredible build, how did I miss it before?   As usual - appreciate showing the build methods rather than the end result of each stage, learned a few tricks.

Very neat scuppers, so hard to make these tiny metal bits match the surface of the hull, but you did it nicely!

Hi Mike - thanks for the comments and good to have you along too.

21 hours ago, druxey said:

Those scuppers turned out really nicely! Well done.

Cheers - Now that I've done them its one of those really nice features that adds a lot to the build.

 

I've now (at last) nailed the starboard side and finished the scuppers on that side too.  So my next part to make is going to be the hawse cushioning timbers as shown below as part H.

I think the easiest way to make these parts would be to laminate 3 pieces together........however I'm going to try and make this out of 1 piece of wood as per the drawing.  I really want these parts to look as good as possible as they are very prominent on the finished ship.  So here's where I'm at so far with my experimenting.  I worked out the centres of each half round and drilled a 1mmx1mm hole into pieces of wood as an index point for the cut.

Next I found the centre of the rotary table and placed a corresponding 1mm brass location pin.  Then I located the piece of wood to be cut onto this pin and set the radius of the cut by moving the X axis.  Then made a cut to check for accuracy by only using the plunge cut and rotating table.

After a little adjustment I have my first prototype which I think is accurate enough.  To make the 2nd and 3rd cuts I simply moved the piece along to the next location hole onto the brass pin.

So thats where I'm at for now - I'll have a go at making the final pieces this week but it's looking promising.

 

Thanks to everyone for the continued support - Mark 

 

[No Idea]

Some more done on these two parts.  I made the final pieces and drilled all of the required holes into them both.  The hawse holes are drilled at about 20 degrees.

Unfortunately I drilled the nail holes around the hawse hole at 90 degrees or if you like straight in.  So in these pictures they look correct but after milling the top to its final thickness it moved them off centre - Oh well these things happen.

 

So I fitted them onto the ship and also finished the scuppers for the manger.  I also thought it best that I protect the ship a bit at this stage so I gave the planking a light coat of shellac sanding sealer.

My next job is going to be making the beams for the forecastle deck.  I need to do this as I think my alignment of the bowsprit is slightly off.  Making the beams above the bowsprit partners will help me to see this.

 

Mark

[No Idea]

Making the beams for the forecastle deck - As always I made one extra as I always damage one; and I did!

I then cut them to length and placed them into their correct positions.  What I wanted to check was the crown height of each beam and also how they sat on the bowsprit partners.

I'm happy to say that I'm actually on the money this time!  Each beam sits between 1.7mm and 1.4mm too high and they locate nicely into the partners too.  This now gives me the depth of each dovetail joint into the clamps to bring them down to the correct height.  The actually depth should be 1.3mm so I'm pretty close.

I'm now going to make and fit the deck shelf and cut the dovetails etc so that I have a good dry fit.  They can then be put away until the time is right to install them permanently.

 

Mark

[druxey]

Beams located less than 0.5mm too high? I'm disappointed in you, Mark! Seriously, that is pretty impressive.

[No Idea]

12 minutes ago, druxey said:

Beams located less than 0.5mm too high? I'm disappointed in you, Mark! Seriously, that is pretty impressive.

😜 - Cheers druxey I did have a big smile on my face when I took the measurements.