Winchelsea Nef 1274 A.D. by Louie da fly - FINISHED - 1:75

[Louie da fly]

1 minute ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Normans were Vikings and 13th century English aristocracy were Normans.

 

True, true. But did that extend to shipbuilding? Two hundred and fifty years is a long time, and England had its own shipbuilding traditions. Who knows what developments occurred in that period? All I've observed tells me one thing - shipbuilding technology never stands still, and there are any number of ways to solve the same problems. All right, two things . . . 

 

Steven

[Chuck Seiler]

    Kingship and Maritime Power in 10th‐Century England, by Matthew Firth and Erin Sebo—has been published in the International Journal of Nautical Archeology.  You have to be a member of an institution to access the article and I fear the "San Diego Mental Hospital" doesn't qualify.  An article I read that summarizes it states that English naval tradition goes back to before Alfred...there was a battle with the Vikings in 851.  Alfred had a couple battles but the article suggests his ships weree not all that great.  Comparison of 'burial ships' over the years suggests "Similarities in burial configuration and in ship design across these regions demonstrate ongoing cultural contact, resulting in comparable technological innovations in warship design between England and Scandinavia, and common cultural attitudes to the importance and prestige of sea-power."  

 

    If you build below average ships and your neighbor, a seafaring group of hardies, builds better ships, you copy those.  So, while England may have had its own shipbuilding traditions, I contend they were influenced by the Scandinavians LONG before 1066.  I agree, ship design was not the same in 1250 as it was in 950 and a nef is not a knarr, but I suspect there is much carry over.

[Louie da fly]

Oh, I'm not disputing the Viking influence, and we must keep in mind that there were plenty of Viking descendants in England in the east and north (the Danelaw) and had been since the 9th century.

 

Still 250 years is a long time, even allowing for carryover. Anyway, it's a moot point - we don't know how nefs were built, and knarrs seem to be the nearest equivalent. 

 

For a comparison, see the construction of the Bremen cog of c. 1380 -

 

 

certainly a very different kind of vessel - but one thing is very plain; those through-beams were absolutely vital with this kind of construction - It's a bit hard to be sure with all the damage of the centuries, it looks very much like the joins in the frames are  at the turn of the bilge with no knees to reinforce the join. And even if not, that's a pretty frail form of construction for the size of ship. And no stringers or wales, either. Very interesting.

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

I've cut the holes in the planking for the central through-beam.

 

 

 

 

First frame finished and in place. It's the central one with the through-beam, and the mast will be immediately aft of it.

 

 

And second frame in place.

 

 

The first one I made won't be put it in immediately - I'm using it as a sort of template to keep the spacing etc correct for the following ones.

 

Now that I've got into my rhythm, they are coming together fairly smoothly and without too much time taken for each one.

 

Steven

 

[Louie da fly]

I've just changed the way I do the frames - instead of assembling the frame and then putting it in place, I've just started making the frame in its constituent pieces, making sure everything fits properly dry fitted, then gluing it in piece by piece.

 

 

 

 

I find this allows the frame pieces to fit more tightly inside the planking. Hardly any extra work, and a better result. And it's probably the way they did it back in the day (but with nails/treenails instead of glue, of course). 

 

Steven 

[Chuck Seiler]

11 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

And it's probably the way they did it back in the day (but with nails/treenails instead of glue, of course). 

Or duct tape.

[BANYAN]

Looks good Steven; a much better recipe for better fitting frames

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

 

 

I've added some extra frames; the next one in sequence will incorporate the second through-beam.

 

     

 

But I've come across a problem that is going to plague me unless I do something about it. With the crossbeams the way they are, the hold of the nef isn't going to have enough vertical room in it. The knarr I'm taking most of my structure from seems to have its hold open to the sky - there's no evidence of deck-beams above the hold -  but the town seals of nefs show figures obviously standing on a raised deck. 

 

 

And the combination of this deck and the crossbeams below restricts the height available for cargo to an unacceptable level. In the real world if a person was standing on the crossbeams, the deck would only be up to his waist.

 

I'm looking more and more at cogs for a model to work from with this. Yes, they're a later vessel, but as I've found from looking at town seals, not that much later. Though the Bremen cog dates to 1380, there are contemporary representations of them as early as c. 1310, only 36 years later than the Winchelsea seal. 

 

The construction of a cog doesn't have these crossbeams down in the bilges - in fact they are quite lightly constructed. In fact, checking on the Ijsselcog find, (see https://www.academia.edu/40371597/The_IJsselcog_project_from_excavation_to_3D_reconstruction ) I've found my suspicions about the construction method confirmed. The frames are made up of three futtocks, connected simply by scarph joints - one of which is at the sharp corner at the turn of the bilge, though there is a knee there to reinforce it.

 

 

And I think this is why they have those hefty through-beams; they're needed to compensate from the lightweight construction. I note also that at least some of the through-beams are reinforced with hefty knees (see fig. 23 above, and the photo of the Bremen cog in an earlier post). In the Ijsselcog these knees are fixed through the planking to wales on the outer surface of the hull.

 

This form of construction allows for a very considerable amount of room for cargo, whilst being strong enough to cope with wind and wave.

 

I'm not going to change what I've already done - apart from anything else, the upper deck will hide the through-beams I've already put in. But I think I'm going to follow the cog construction as far as I can for any future frames. I also need to consider those great big knees used on the cog, and see if they are appropriate to the nef. As it appears to be flush-decked apart from the small fore and after decks, I may have to compromise with smaller knees, to allow access fore and aft.

 

Still a work in progress.

 

On another subject, and getting a bit ahead of myself, I'd been wondering about the function of the windlass and whether it was used to raise the sail, and if so, whether there was anything in between (such as a bollard) the halyard was tied to once the yard was raised. I found some video of sail being raised on the Viking reconstruction Harald Fairhair -

 

So yes, if this is any guide, the windlass is specifically to hoist the yard, and the halyard runs directly to the windlass and is held there by it, without any bollard or whatever.

 

 

Steven

Edited September 19, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Cathead]

So much cool knowledge coming out of this!

[Chuck Seiler]

Steven,

 

    I agree with this conclusion.  That is what I was trying to indicate in post 136, but it was very wordy and may have missed the point.  Long story short: The frames that contained the thru beams were centrally located and provided stability.  The cargo area could be accessed via removable deck planks and ran thru-beam frame to thru-beam frame.  (In other words the area between thru deck frames formed sort of a compartment).

    Here is the best picture I could find to illustrate the removable planks.  They include fingerholes and don't appear too water tight.

 

    Deck winch.  Most of the ones I have seen, and the way depicted in Zimmerman, was that the hole/slot went all of the way through the windlass so the windlass bar could be used to stop/hold the windlass in place.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Chuck Seiler

[Louie da fly]

Just going through some more info. The evidence whether nefs had a raised deck (level with the top of the through-beams) is a bit contradictory. I've already shown the Winchelsea nef in my previous post, and the crew certainly seem to be standing on a raised deck. This is supported by the seal of Yarmouth St Nicholas

 

 

and an illustration from the Bestiary of 1225-1250, MS Bodley 764  supports this idea.

 

 

However, another illustration from the same source contradicts this,

 

 

as does an illustration fro BL Egerton MS 3028

 

 

 

Unfortunately, most of the other town seals could be interpreted either way - plenty of crew members shown, but their feet may or may not be standing on a raised deck. Here are the seals of Sandwich and San Sebastian.

 

 

 

It's quite possible that both types existed. In any case, I'm still going with the raised deck for my model, as it's pretty evident that the ship on the Winchelsea seal has one.

 

Steven

 

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Thanks for the input, Chuck. I think we must have been writing at the same time as each other.

 

2 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Here is the best picture I could find to illustrate the removable planks.  They include fingerholes and don't appear too water tight.

 

I don't suppose they have to be on what is in effect an open boat, especially as they can be removed to bale her out. I really don't know if pumps were in use at this time - though Woodrat put them on his near-contemporary Venetian Round Ship, I don't know of any evidence of them being used in the Atlantic. Time to have another look at the archaeological reports on cogs - nah, no mention of pumps at all.

 

2 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Deck winch.  Most of the ones I have seen, and the way depicted in Zimmerman, was that the hole/slot went all of the way through the windlass so the windlass bar could be used to stop/hold the windlass in place.

 

Yes, this is confirmed by the windlass barrel from the Ijsselcog.

 

 

The Bremen cog has not only a windlass but a capstan as well, and though the best photo I've been able to find is a bit equivocal, it looks like the holes go all the way through on this one too. An easy way to stop it unwinding without ratchets and pawls.

 

Oh, and I've found some earlier representations of cogs - dating back to 1267 and 1280 - exactly contemporary with the Winchelsea nef.

 

Steven

 

 

[Chuck Seiler]

11 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

I don't suppose they have to be on what is in effect an open boat, especially as they can be removed to bale her out. I really don't know if pumps were in use at this time

    My concern would be for the cargo, but I supposed most/all would be packed in barrels.

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Yes, probably - though the Ijsselcog had what looked like grain that had been in sacks. However, (if I read the archaeological report correctly) they found  "ceiling planks", which I think means there was a deck above the hold. And also slots for deck beams within the hold that indicate the hold was actually on two levels (page 476 of the archaeological report I linked above). Of course a cog is a lot deeper than a nef, and I'll be happy if I just get a single level in the hold.

 

Steven

Edited September 21, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Chuck Seiler]

We'll build the ships.  Let them worry about how they will load their cargo, eh?

[Louie da fly]

And more frames, and the second through-beam is in place. Note the new frames don't have the lower crossbeams.

 

 

 

 

And I occasionally get to cut the floor timbers with the grain following the line of the frames.

 

 

And here we get to see the amount of room there is in the hold of you omit those lower crossbeams.

 

 

 

 

Cutting the holes for the through-beams for the forecastle.

 

 

 

And making beam clamps for the deck beams.

 

 

Beam clamps bent to follow the ship's hull.

 

 

And glued in place.

 

 

 

Forecastle through-beam in place -

 

 

and deck beam below it.

 

 

Next job is to add the beam clamps for the forecastle and rest of the deck-beams at this end. And then repeat everything at the other end.

 

Steven 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Thukydides]

It is really starting to come together. Great job.

[Chuck]

Wonderful progress

[ChiefClanker]

Steve,

 

From looking at the various depictions of nefs, it seems each nef may have been 'one-off' making no two exactly alike.  

 

Great work on the model!  Keep it up!

 

Chief Mark

 

[Louie da fly]

I'd agree with you, Mark, though there are certain things they all seem to have, such as those beautiful stem and sternposts, which I haven't seen in any other type of vessel, including Viking ships which are otherwise very similar. Some have "bowsprits", others don't, some have a single "castle" (always at the stern), others have two, some masts have a "top", others don't. And many pictures show some kind of leafy branch at one or both ends - no idea why. 

 

Another interesting thing is how the town seals have so many features in common - such as guys up on the yard unfurling the sail. 

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

More framing.

 

Here's where she was at the end of the last post.

 

 

Framing for the foredeck done and now adding beam clamps.

 

 

 

 

And glue dried - slightly wonky beam clamp because it's recycled from what was going to be a frame.

 

 

And adding the deck beams for the foredeck, level with the through-beam nearest the bow.

 

 

And about here I realised I was going to hit problems - I'm getting short of walnut sheet that's the right thickness. Plenty of stuff suitable for planking, but not for framing. So I got out some European plane wood that was left over from the dromon build. Not exactly the same look, but in places where it's not going to be visible it's ok - and anyway, the difference isn't all that obvious. The middle of the three frames in the photo below is plane wood - the others are walnut.

 

I'll be using plane wood for such things as deck beams and floor timbers where they are hidden by decks. I'll try to keep all the upper futtocks in walnut because they're visible at the top ends.

 

 

Adding the breast hook.

 

 

 

All the deck beams added for the bow half. Note that two beams seem to be missing, but that's where the hold is - it will have a catwalk each side and removeable floorboards above the hold, each spanning over the gap between the deckbeams. 

 

And a nice view from the stern.

 

 

Steven

[Baker]

Very neat work Steven.

[Louie da fly]

More framing.

 

 

And for those of you who may be interested in how I'm making the frames to insert in the planking, here's an example of a partly made pair of floor timbers, showing how I carve the "blank" to fit in place. The I'll cut along the pencil line to finish shaping the frames.

 

 

I'm getting into researching the mast step and the windlass.

 

The windlass will be based on those of the Bremen cog and the Ijsselcog, and that of the Kalmar ship from the mid-13th century (referenced in an earlier post), which is very similar. It'll have to be shorter than those of the cogs - unlike them, there just isn't room for one that long in a ship with pointy ends like the nef.

 

 

I'll be basing the mast step on that of the Ijsselcog, as being closest in time to the nef. Here it is (pictures from the Ijsselcog archaeological report referenced above)

 

 

 

And here's mine just getting started. Right side up

 

 

And upside down - the slots are for the frames.

 

 

As I originally built the frames with a crossbeam near the bottom as in knarrs, I'm having to cut several of them off to accommodate the mast step which is different from those of Viking ships.

 

      

 

 

I've still got a bit of tidying up to do to make it all smick and merge the cut-off bits into the shape of the frames.

 

One last thing. I'd been lamenting that I didn't have any wood with a forked grain (as you get at a branch), suitable for the frames of the bow and stern and the breast hooks. I realised I was wrong. The yellow(ish) ones are from an apricot tree in the garden which went to meet its maker. Still needs time to season. The three at top right are old seasoned walnut from the guy next door's dead tree which he let me have the timber from.

 

 

Nice to have this.

 

Steven

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Louie da fly]

I've been working on the mast step. Here's my first attempt. The longitudinal groove is for the keel to fit into.

 

 

And the crosswise slots are for the frames. Note that some of them are wider than others, due to inaccurate transferring of frame locations from the ship to the mast step, and one in particular I seem to have just got completely wrong.

 

 

Shaping and putting in the socket for the mast tenon.

 

 

And in place. Not terribly bad, but really it just wasn't good enough. Somehow I got the whole thing wrong so the socket for the mast was way off centre. I may have got the whole thing turned backwards, so the fore end was aft - that's the only explanation I can think of. 

 

 

 

And looking back at the cog's mast step which I was using for a model, I realised that the mast step body wasn't supposed to go all the way down to the planking - it was just to be supported on the frames, with fairly shallow grooves cut in the underneath (see the reconstruction drawing in my previous post). Where I'd gone wrong was not to print the diagram off, and just rely on memory. Bad idea.

 

So, here's version 2.

 

 

 

Much better.

 

 

 

Moving right along, I've made the next through-beam and glued it in place. 

 

 

 

Next I have to make all the rest of the frames and put them in place, then add the beam clamp and the crossbeams to mirror the ones at the other end.

 

Coming along.

 

Steven

[druxey]

Looking good, Steven. Glad you re-made that mast step!

[Louie da fly]

Me too 

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

More framing - and the last through beam and beam clamps made.

 

 

 

Got the final through-beam in place and the beam clamps glued in.

 

 

 

 

 

Steven

Edited September 30, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Tony Hunt]

Fast progress!

[BANYAN]

Couldn't agree more Tony, makes my build feel slower than snail pace; but Steven also maintains quality.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, Tony and Pat. And thanks everybody for the likes.

 

Pat, I wouldn't be too worried about the speed with quality like yours. And the time you take to do the research to get it right. Amazing that such a (relatively) recent ship as Victoria, built in the days of photography and printed manuals should be so hard to get correct information on. But she was a bit of a trailblazer, and not enough people were taking photos or writing stuff down.

 

Tony, I've seen your very informed comments on other people's builds, but haven't seen your own log. Am I missing something?

 

Anyhow, I do seem to be on a bit of a roll, which is nice. Earlier, particularly during the planking, it seemed as if I wasn't getting anywhere fast. So this makes a nice change.

 

I've added intermediate frames in line with the mast step, to make a pozzie for the knees. Eventually there will be intermediate frames between every pair of frames you see here.

 

 

 

 

And here are all the knees in position.

 

 

 

 

The only problem is that I was planning to have some of the removable planks above the hold removed, so some of the cargo would be visible, but the mast step assembly is so pretty I really don't want to cover it up as in the Ijsselcog's archaeological report (referenced above)

 

"In the area around the mast step the remains of a removable or false ceiling was found. It consisted of longitudinal timbers, placed on the first and second ceiling strakes and covered with loose planks and dunnage (Fig. 16). Salix twigs, branches, and straw were abundant across the whole width of the false ceiling.
This construction would have kept the cargo dry by separating it from accumulating bilge-water and, at the same time, covering the open space between the floortimbers. The false ceiling and the remains of what were probably shifting-boards in the rear of the ship are indicators for the internal layout of cargo space. It is plausible that the cog was able to carry a load of casks amidships for which a dry, horizontal, upper cargo deck was reserved. The shifting-boards in the rear could have contained sacks of merchandise, such as grain."

 

and the reconstruction drawing in my post #173. I'll have to think about it a bit and decide which way I want to go.

 

[Edit - But looking again at that drawing, are they perhaps showing that the layer of planking, branches etc isn't over the mast step assembly - at least not over the knees I took so much trouble about? Hard to be sure, but it would help a lot if that were so.[/Edit]

 

Starting on the frames for the pointy bit at the stern.

 

 

And here's where the wood with the forked grain from an earlier post comes in handy.

 

    

 

    

 

 

    

 

 

Now I need to make and put in the breast hook and the beam clamps and deck beams for the after deck.

 

Coming along . . .

 

To be honest it's been very hard resisting the temptation to make the castles, but I found out the hard way with my dromon that it's a bad idea to make something before you know the space it has to fit in and the other things it has to fit around. All in good time.

 

Steven

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Louie da fly