48pdr cannon

[Thanasis]

Hi all.

I would be much appreciated if someone could extract anything from the below print.

That could be the source of it and possible date-nationality-anything...

Many thanks in advance.

Thx

[Gregory]

Not much help towards your question but just an observation..

 

 

This looks like a modern addition, and not part of the original document..  I could be wrong.

[Waldemar]

 

Sorry to say, but this is not contemporary document, just modern interpretation sporting many, many grave mistakes… Please don't waste your time on this drawing, unless you have some other goals. Sorry again.

 

Waldemar

[Jasseji]

I second Waldemar's oppinion, these drwaings are so wrong, i cant even point out anything that looks right

[Gregory]

Project " Wind of Luck " appears to be associated with a gaming site about Pirates and such..

[druxey]

It is quite bizarre!

[Jasseji]

20 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Project " Wind of Luck " appears to be associated with a gaming site about Pirates and such..

it hurts the eyes anyways

[dafi]

On top of it all writing are computer based letters 😉

 

Oh, I love the look of the low rider scene, my friend has a car like this ...

 

😆😆😆

 

XXXDAn

[Jasseji]

2 minutes ago, dafi said:

On top of it all writing are computer based letters 😉

 

Oh, I love the look of the low rider scene, my friend has a car like this ...

 

😆😆😆

 

XXXDAn

That's not even the worst part of it, if this would be a Fort-Gun then the Carriage might be on rails, so small wheels arent the biggest issue

[bruce d]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/384520/Wind_of_Luck_Arena__Caribbean_Captain_pack/

 

It looks like a cool toy but it ain't real.

1 hour ago, dafi said:

Oh, I love the look of the low rider scene,

Now that you have said it, I have to smile at the thought of metalflake barrels and tuck-n-roll gunport lids ... 😎

[allanyed]

I second and third the above.  The lower side view has the bore off center at the muzzle by 0.65" assuming the barrel is 9'6" long just for starters.  This is probably not a good drawing to use for any model.  It shows at the bottom that Trazzy Entertainment has a copyright 2011 on this drawing and they are indeed a game developer.

Cheers

Allan

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

If you are looking for the plan of a 48pdr (which are very rare), there is one, with informations, on my website.

 

GD

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by G. Delacroix
Picture

[Thanasis]

Thank you all for your answers. 
I  have been also through the "Wind of Luck" gaming site, but I thought it would be something from an original source.
I'm not familiar with fake prints... and the handwritten notes on it, seemed real to me...
@.G. Delacroix. I have also visited your web site sir, I've seen the plans of that 48 cannon and I've read the information.
However, I'm not looking for plans but for anything could give me any clue for a riddle Ι'm dealing with...
In those info it is said that these guns were not used as naval ones beyond than 1783 but just only in costal and fortress defense batteries. (Book: French fortification 1715-1815).
But in my search, I have found that the artillery officer Paixhans, trying to prove his idea, that large caliber guns in small ships can make the difference, was experimenting with 48 cannons  in Antwerp in 1810.
I wonder why he was experimenting with those already  rejected guns. Were  the same guns, or could be something deferent.
Btw, was ever a 48-pounder carronade in French navy?

Many thanks

[bruce d]

Thanasis, that is interesting, good luck with the 'riddle'.

Decisions to standardise the sizes of armaments reflected whatever jobs the navy was doing at the time. Ships that were not expected to take part in large fleet to fleet encounters had different requirements but still might need large guns. Rotating gun mounts were being developed and nobody actually knew how much bigger the guns might eventually become.

By the way, please remember that privateers were not obligated to follow the rules of the navy and usually had whatever combination of armament that suited the owners.

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

Napoleon had 48pdr cannons sunk in Antwerp but these cannons did not fire traditional cannonballs but hollow explosive cannonballs that we will call "shells". At that time, these shells or bombs were fired with a mortar and therefore had a curved trajectory. These guns fired these shells in a straight line, something that was not practiced yet. 
JH Paixhans invented the gun adapted to launch these shells and standardized the calibers in the navy. The cannons used were called "canon-obusiers" (howitzers) and from 1827 onwards they were used on ships, at first with some reluctance (only 8 on a 100-gun ship) and then in a general way.
The howitzers, by their efficiency, will made the wooden hulls disappear in favor of the first ironclads.
The largest carronades in the French Navy were 36pdr.

 

GD

[mtaylor]

Just to add to things....   Part of the 48 pdr problem was the weight of the ball and powder and the handling of it on ship.  The Paixhans' shell was much lighter as it was filled with powder and the powder change was smaller also.

[G. Delacroix]

Hello

 

The most common howitzer, that of 22 cm of bore, fires shells of 25,7 kg (shell + powder included in the shell which is a hollow ball) thanks to a load of 3,5 kg of powder (large load) or 2 Kg (small load) according to the distance of the goal. We are far from the 36pdr guns which, with 18 kg cannonballs, require charges of one third, i.e. 6 kg of powder. 

The result is also incomparable, the full ball at best crosses the wall of the ship whereas the shell crosses then explodes causing terrible damages in the batteries. 

[Lieste]

Boulet Croix are not the same as Bombe, and canon-obusier could fire both.

[G. Delacroix]

It is unlikely because the balls of 22 cm dont exist, the largest current balls are the 36pdr which measure 17 cm (rare 48pdr: 19,4 cm) and the design of the gun is not adapted.

[Lieste]

Whiles boulets plein, as you indicate were not made larger than the 50 livre gun (19.4cm bore), and the 36 livre/17cm size was the largest in common use, the boulets croix were available in 27c and 22c sizes, as well as in the gun sizes of 19c, 17c, 16c and 15c.

The 27c boulet croix had a mass of 48.3kg, and the 22c boulet croix a mass of 25.79kg. (See Lafay pp67-68)

[G. Delacroix]

We are not talking about the same period because the discussion concerned the very first howitzers. At the time of Lafay, that is to say thirty years later, the artillery had made great progress.

[Lieste]

Within the same period (and even before) the Carron Company had been supplying 'guns of the new construction' and chambered carronades, with a supply of ammunition which included hollow shot, shell and roundshot. (Boulet croix, bombe, boulet plein in equivalent French nomenclature). These were both supplied by contract to the Ordnance, and made commercially available for export. Carron's ordnance was developed following observation of Howitzers in Ireland during the 1750s.

There is no technical limitation precluding an early use of boulets croix, and indeed, the use of this type of ammunition for the obsolescent 36 livre obusier de vaisseau (after filled shell was deemed unsafe for shipboard use after a number of accidents and fires) appears to have been practised.

 

[Thanasis]

Hello. Thank you all mates.
 I've been through some of these info, but in fact I'm not interesting about Paixhans cannonballs but for that 48pdr cannon itself. 
So if I understand well, the gun that Paixhan was experimenting with in 1810, was an improved 48pdr of his innovation? 
The riddle I'm trying to solve, it's about a gun that was set in a bow of a Gr schooner, during the Gr war of independence (1821) and for which there are only controversial descriptions.
The folklore writings talks for a long and the heaviest at that time gun (among the common 12 and 24 pdrs of the Gr fleet) while by Gr history writers is determined as 48pdr and someone goes further writing that it was  a 68pdr.
On the other hand in the historic texts of some Western Philhellenes (some of them military officers  and sometime members of the crew), the gun is described as 48lib carronade!!!
Crossword for strong minds.
If you ask me why I'm thinking Paixan's guns, my answer is because the owner of the schooner  (shipbuilder himself as well) was a research and innovate mind to built the first Gr schooner based in American plans. By his decision to place a large caliber gun on the bow of his ship, at least for me shows that he was following the Paixhans idea, for large caliber guns on small ships. So why not to adopt also his innovated gun?

As about my query if ever was a 48pdr carronade in French navy, I have found the below text, part from Paixhan’s book "Nouvelle force Maritime" written in 1822.
As you can notice he refers both to 48pdr guns and 48pdr carronades.
 Is he referring to his innovated 48pdr gun as 48pdr carronade, separating it from the regular 48pdrs?
So again, which one is what, for strong minds.
Thank you

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Thanasis
Grammar

[Waldemar]

In short, soldier words: make an educated guess and choose at the most „modest“ 24-pounder for your schooner‘s bow gun. Better don‘t count on general historians sporting national bias who have usually no idea on period or modern artillery (assuming a 48-pounder or a 68-pounder is just their guess, not derived from the sources). Generally speaking, Paixhan work is more on ideas, rather than on actual practice. That's my advice. Thank you.

[Lieste]

A 24pdr of 48cwt might be an answer to the question, that would be suitable for a smallish schooner, and confusable with larger ordnance. This would also match the image of the 'style of gun' presumed to be associated with your schooner, which was a Blomefeld ordnance of a gun pattern (48cwt is the 9ft pattern) - not the shorter, broader style of a shell gun.

[mtaylor]

A bit of Googling says there were 48lb carronades in use in the time frame you're looking at.  In a schooner it would seem likely that a carronade would be mounted in the bow rather than a long gun due to space for recoil and gun handling.  Are there any details on the schooner as to it's size, etc.?

[G. Delacroix]

@ Lieste 

Obviously, we are not talking about the same things.

 

@ Thanasis

 

The text concerning the French naval artillery is a theoretical proposal by Lafay, a proposal which, like many others in the navy, was not followed up.

As far as I know, there were never any 48 carronades in the French navy, at best only a few 50pdr guns in 1849.

[Thanasis]

@Lieste. I have also consider the case of a 48cwt for which I don't know why someone at that time, would be referring to that, instead of the caliber of the gun. In addition there are the philhellenes' descriptions, who write for a 48lib carronade.

@Mark. Sorry but searching the same way, I couldn't find something for 48lib carronades. And according to Spencer C. Tucker  ( university professor, and author of works on military history) in his article "The Carronade" (Nautical research Journal), carronades were cast in all calibers, but the most common in about 1810, were 12-, 18-, 24-, and 32-pdr,  giving also some info for 42 and 68pdr carronades. But nothing for 48pdr.
Anyway.
The schooner I'm talking about is the "Terpsichore" rigged as topsail schooner, for which there is nothing more as technical info than the length of her keel that was 27,4 m (89,8 feet). Based on American's schooners plans, she was famous for her speed and her big gun, for which btw, there is nothing written as an achievement of it.!? 

@Delacroix. My English are not so good but if I'm understanding well, it is about what Paixans' proposes as gunnery for ships. I don't think that he would suggest something that it was non-existent and suppose to be invented in future. And all I could think is that he is referring to his innovation for a 48pdr gun.
Thank you all

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Thanasis

[Waldemar]

 

Try to establish if this bower shot through the gunport or over the bulwark (required gun barrel length depended on this, ie. longer barrel for a position with a gunport; horizontal angles!).

Try to establish also the way in which calibre of chambered guns (like howitzers, carronades, mortars) were measured and referred to in Greece then (for example, according to iron roundshot or stone rounshot for a specific calibre).

 

Try also to establish the actual weight of a pound used in Greek artillery then.

You will have more data then to hopefully sort it out…

Edited September 26, 2021 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

 

… logistic issues may be of help too. What was the source of guns for the Greek navy in general (or this cannon in particular)? Russia, Turkey, France, GB, Greece itself, and so on…

 

Without all of this, we can only create pure deus ex machina. Sorry.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Waldemar