Egilman Posted April 3, 2022 Author Share #31 Posted April 3, 2022 Well the idea is similar to black basing, since the base is pure black like the real aircraft, that's what you use.. Then take some dirtifying stuff, (Mig streaking grime for example) and wash it without sealing it, you want the flat black and grime to really adhere to each other... Once dry using clear clean thinner, wash it again, yes it's going to knock down the paint on the high spots, but it will move the rest around making it dull and splotchy, but still discernably black... Then you go back over it sealing it with future before dry brushing gloss black enamel over the high spots you washed the paint off of before... Then pick out the details with your colors and overcoat it with flat clear... Pictures soon... Edwardkenway, Jack12477, Old Collingwood and 4 others 7 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 3, 2022 Author Share #32 Posted April 3, 2022 I promised pics... Under natural light cause that is where the detail; disappeared in the black hole.... You can at least discern the panels and edges while it still looks blacker than black... But, it doesn't look right to me, the technique is good, my detail picking, not so much... I think I'm gonna take a different approach here something that adds more detail... Stay tuned my friends.... EG popeye the sailor, yvesvidal, FriedClams and 7 others 10 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted April 3, 2022 Share #33 Posted April 3, 2022 Have you considered maybe dry brushing a little silver on the wearing surfaces and panel edges? Areas like the forward edge of the seat, for instance, and anywhere the pilot would have rubbed off the black paint through the routine actions of flying. Andy Egilman, Canute, Old Collingwood and 5 others 5 3 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 4, 2022 Author Share #34 Posted April 4, 2022 2 hours ago, realworkingsailor said: anywhere the pilot would have rubbed off the black paint through the routine actions of flying. Yep I have considered that Andy, problem is except for a few milk runs, 51-2910 was a brand new aircraft when issued to McConnell, every shot I have of the aircraft shows virtually no wear at all... (with the original black headrest and seat pads from NAA as well) Not even chips in the paint... There's a lot of things I could do to make it a lot easier like beat it up a bit show some wear and tear, but McConnell's last bird was clean very little wear and tear, and her crew chief kept it that way... Much like this pic... You see no edge wear, quite a bit of dust and some interior green floor is beginning to show and I believe all that white on the stick is leather polishing of the bakelite grip showing as flash reflection from the camera.... Your not even seeing wear in the NAA emblems on the seats foot pans... Just a modicum of dirt, (although the rudder pedals are showing wear on the tread sections where the pilot does most of the pushing... (first place it shows up) A line aircraft with a new seat I would say, a couple of months service is all... I figure the original seat would look like the rest of the cockpit, beginning to show signs of serious usage but nothing that stands out... My feelings is this is a close representation of what Capt McConnell's every day office looked like, it's why I'm trying to replicate it.... Exterior pics thru the canopy show nothing, just a black hole under glass, but open canopy pics show essentially what you see above... (pic was clearly taken with high flash to bring out definition of the surfaces, in some places your seeing reflection from the flat black surfaces.. The seat looks almost like gloss paint) The funny thing is, I'm learning how difficult it is to do a clean cockpit as compared to a fairly well used one... Especially flat black with black dials.... Definition is hard to come by... FriedClams, lmagna, Old Collingwood and 8 others 11 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted April 4, 2022 Share #35 Posted April 4, 2022 It begs the question, do it correct as it was, and risk losing the details in the blackness, or bend the truth a little to show them off? (Fully appreciating that you want to keep things as accurate as possible) If you have a spare cockpit (or cockpit pieces) leftover from another project, maybe you could try a side by side to see? Andy FriedClams, mtaylor, Edwardkenway and 6 others 9 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 4, 2022 Author Share #36 Posted April 4, 2022 6 hours ago, realworkingsailor said: It begs the question, do it correct as it was, and risk losing the details in the blackness, or bend the truth a little to show them off? (Fully appreciating that you want to keep things as accurate as possible) If you have a spare cockpit (or cockpit pieces) leftover from another project, maybe you could try a side by side to see? Thanks Andy, Yeah it kinda does beg the question doesn't it.... So what we want is something that shows when you look at it directly under high light levels yet disappears when at a distance..... What I did was install the eduard cockpit panels I have... lets see how they react under heavy flash and natural light... They should show up well and distinct and defined under bright light and disappear under natural light... Bright Lights...... Natural Light... They virtually disappear at 18" away, but under closeup with good light they show up well... I think I'm going to go with that..... I have a complete Aries cockpit set that I'm hoping to save in case I want to do the -40 variant of this aircraft, or possibly recoup some of the cost of this kit in the future so unfortunately I have nothing to show another option... I think this looks good enough for what I'm doing... It will look the part when buttoned up... realworkingsailor, Edwardkenway, king derelict and 8 others 11 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolley Roger Posted April 4, 2022 Share #37 Posted April 4, 2022 Following with interest, my favorite piece of military hardware! lmagna, Old Collingwood, Edwardkenway and 5 others 8 Quote Samuel Pepys notes in his diary on 19 July 1667: "the Dutch fleets being in so many places, that Sir W. Batten at table cried, By God,says he, I think the Devil shits Dutchmen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canute Posted April 4, 2022 Share #38 Posted April 4, 2022 EG, how about using Gunship Gray or NATO Black. They are more of a charcoal gray and less of a light sump that flat black becomes. Egilman, popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood and 4 others 7 Quote Ken Started: MS Bounty Longboat, On Hold: Heinkel USS Choctaw paper Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1 Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section Member Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 4, 2022 Author Share #39 Posted April 4, 2022 Though of that Ken when I started... Most modelers lighten the flat black by adding a couple of drops of white to it in a mixing cup then dry brushing all the edges to make them stand out before doing the decals and PE... Kinda like the technique used to highlight the nooks and crannies on ship models but in reverse... That was the point of the grime wash give the edges some definition so they don't get lost... It worked sufficiently to allow something to show in natural light.... The eduard set appears as black in natural light but obviously shows up as green under intense flash light... I'm sitting here looking at it from 3 feet away under natural light and it looks good... Under high flash, without the white background this is what I get... Much better although the panels still show as greenish... Under natural light without the white background... Now that looks like a cockpit... some of the green tinted panels do show but loosing the stark white background helped quite a bit... Looks much better... And with the Mk 1 eyeball it looks good.. Still need to finish some detailing before I set it aside to go on with the kit... I probably should have gone with Andy's suggestion and did the postwar cockpit easier to do and although not historically accurate, would have been simply easier... I have to set this aside for the moment, my eduard set when I opened it had an error, fret 2 was the wrong fret from another 1/48 scale model.. I've been in contact with eduard support showing them the packing error and they got back to me this morning... They will be sending me a correct fret 2 within the week... That will allow me to dress up the seat and radio shelf in the canopy.... (understanding that this set has been discontinued for over a year, they are making a fret up just for me, for free! That's great customer service) I think this will work once it is all said and done and out in the natural light it will look the part... Next step is the engine and it's scratch built dolly, and we run into a spot where the manufacturer got it wrong, the engine... More to follow.... Canute, mtaylor, popeye the sailor and 7 others 10 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 4, 2022 Author Share #40 Posted April 4, 2022 8 hours ago, Jolley Roger said: Following with interest, my favorite piece of military hardware! Welcome aboard Roger! It's one of mine as well, it's simply a strikingly beautiful airplane... Jolley Roger, FriedClams, Canute and 6 others 9 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted April 4, 2022 Share #41 Posted April 4, 2022 One more quick question: What does your current cockpit look like when surrounded by your high polish metal exterior finish? As is, it looks pretty nice. Andy Jack12477, Canute, Egilman and 5 others 7 1 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share #42 Posted April 5, 2022 That's the million dollar question Andy, I won't know until the fuselage is almost completely assembled and the finish is applied... That's why this is another test build... And with needing the second fret of PE parts for the seat which is going to take at least two weeks to get here from eduard, I'm looking at moving forward on other things right now... the only image I have of a real life cockpit for an F-86F from the outside is this... And it's a Canadair Sabre Mk. 5, (in the Korean War configuration) So I'm flying by the seat of my pants/experience as to what to do and where to go with it... it's a nice clean look if I can pull it off.. Thank you, I think I'm on the right track and it is a good time to shift to something else right at the moment... I have other parts and alterations that need to be made to the fuselage first before I can assemble it and finish it... (like the ammo bay doors which are opened to double as the first step to climb into the cockpit, they need to be added to the model before I can close it up) The gun barrel ports need to be replaced as well cause as molded they don't represent anything of reality... There are some issues with this kit that need correcting... And I just learned about the engine... Normally the engine would go inside the aircraft and that is how it is usually built or they give the option of having the tail on a work stand with the engine hanging out the back... (not a good look for me) I'm gonna put it on an engine dolly to display it so I have the option of making it look like a real engine rather than something to just stick out it's tail... It's a nice kit, accurate if built as just the airplane sitting on the runway waiting to take off, but it can be made into something real special if one puts in the work... That's my aim here.... FriedClams, Canute, Jolley Roger and 7 others 10 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted April 5, 2022 Share #43 Posted April 5, 2022 Real nice start on this model Egilman. Very nice introduction and background info on the aircraft which is always appreciated. Will be following along. Gary Jack12477, Canute, king derelict and 5 others 8 Quote Current Build Pelican Eastern-Rig Dragger Completed Scratch Builds Rangeley Guide Boat New England Stonington Dragger 1940 Auto Repair Shop Mack FK Shadowbox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolley Roger Posted April 5, 2022 Share #44 Posted April 5, 2022 On 4/1/2022 at 12:01 PM, Egilman said: The last image is a Palmdale (North American Aviation) built Sabre Mk 5 that is still in it's wartime configuration... This illustrates the black cockpit better than anything I could describe... Postwar, the Airforce decided that they were going to the aircraft grey cockpit with black panels (November '53) and all aircraft were to be switched to the new scheme upon the first IRAN (Inspect and Repair As Needed) so you will be very hard pressed to find any sabre aircraft with a black cockpit today, all of the currently flying refurbished/restored aircraft have a grey/black cockpit... Just to throw a small spanner in the works😁 Below is a cockpit photo of SAAF F-86 616 with a grey interior taken by Lt G Thom. This aircraft was shot down on 21 July 1953 and Lt Thom became a POW for a short while. So there were some Sabres that already had grey interiors in the Korean theatre. lmagna, Javlin, Old Collingwood and 7 others 10 Quote Samuel Pepys notes in his diary on 19 July 1667: "the Dutch fleets being in so many places, that Sir W. Batten at table cried, By God,says he, I think the Devil shits Dutchmen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javlin Posted April 5, 2022 Share #45 Posted April 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Jolley Roger said: cockpit photo of SAAF F-86 616 with a grey interior taken by Lt G Thom I seen more grey than black in my research. Canute, mtaylor, lmagna and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share #46 Posted April 5, 2022 5 hours ago, Jolley Roger said: So there were some Sabres that already had grey interiors in the Korean theatre. Never said there weren't, the USAF had to get the idea from somewhere... Once the Aircraft were made available to the allied nations, they were free to do with them as they pleased.. Not everyone thought flying slow cookers were a good thing... {chuckle} lmagna, Edwardkenway, mtaylor and 4 others 7 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share #47 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Javlin said: I seen more grey than black in my research. Yep, every single one of those, if owned by the USAF, is post November 1953... Postwar... I'll see if I can dig up the references and post them... Pretty much everyone restores them to the Black over Grey standard today, it's a pure flyability issue, but only historically accurate postwar when the Airforce converted to it... (also note that most of the flyable F-86's today were built postwar so a grey cockpit would be accurate for those as built) The wartime F-86's were transferred to other airforces or retired as the US airforce upgraded or replaced theirs... I understand that Taiwan got over 200 wartime F-86's just as one example... (Japan got around 100 as well before manufacturing them under license) In fact the aircraft I'm modeling wound up being wrote off by the Chinese (taiwanese) Airforce I believe in the 70's... (I believe my research shows that there is only one wartime F-86 in flying condition in the world today and it's an "A" model) Forgotten Warbird resource groups listing for 51-2910 Scroll down to 51-2910... Taken from official USAF records... Now, Airport Data claims that Yanks Air Museum is restoring 51-2910 but they aren't, and Wiki claims that 51-2910 is on display at the USAF 51st Fighter Wing area, Osan Air Base, South Korea, but it isn't... (they also list it as an F-86D which it wasn't) The USAF armaments museum has an F-86F in Capt. McConnell's livery and they acknowledge that it isn't 51-2910... UPDATE: the Yanks Air Museum F-86F has been identified as 52-5513.... That solves that mystery... You can research individual military aircraft and what is known about their fates, it's not complete but what they do have is very accurate all you need is their initial registration number... Edited April 5, 2022 by Egilman popeye the sailor, Jolley Roger, Canute and 6 others 9 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share #48 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Jolley Roger said: Just to throw a small spanner in the works😁 Below is a cockpit photo of SAAF F-86 616 with a grey interior taken by Lt G Thom. This aircraft was shot down on 21 July 1953 and Lt Thom became a POW for a short while. So there were some Sabres that already had grey interiors in the Korean theatre. No Spanner in the works.... The SAAF flew two different versions of the Sabre in Korea, the F-86F on loan from the USAF and their own purchased Canadair Sabre 13 Mk. 6's (F-86F's built by NAA in Palmdale for the Canadian AF) those Mk. 6's had grey cockpits, the SAAF Sabre's of 2 sqd, on loan from the USAF had black cockpits.... Read here where where it is directly discussed... (By SAAF historians and modelers) Edited April 5, 2022 by Egilman Edwardkenway, Old Collingwood, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share #49 Posted April 5, 2022 Ok, research update here.... GE J-47-27 Engine, as fitted to almost all F-86F's.... The kit engine.... Not glued together, just stacked to show what comes with the kit... The best thing I can say for it is that it resembles a J-47.... as you can easily see it is soft on detail and it's a bit out of scale on the larger side.... the real engine has a length of 145" (without tailpipe) and a diameter of 36.75" in scale that would be 4.53125" long (4&17/32nds inch) and 1.148" in diameter... So I'll have to work with what I got.. first off the real engine... (from TO 2J-J47-24 Illustrated Parts Breakdown J47-ST-25 to J47-GE-27 1969) And actual engine pics from a museum in Japan.... And finally the intake end... where the major issues are... Just several things noticeable... 1. The intake casing is too narrow should be about double it's length... 2. The intake has four flow vanes for the anti icing system which are completely missing... 3. The accessory drive cover is too short and starts angling downward almost immediately, it should protrude from the intake casing twice the true width of the casing before it starts angling downward... 4. The accessory drive cover has a flat nose with hole for cooling air flow to access the accessories.... 5. The eight burner cans do not taper and are woefully underscale... 6. The tailpipe is not part of the engine... It looks like I can save most of the compressor, at least I can work with it... (probably add some details as well... Now, working out how to go about fixing it.... Onwards Brothers... king derelict, mtaylor, Edwardkenway and 8 others 11 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king derelict Posted April 5, 2022 Share #50 Posted April 5, 2022 That plastic engine is disappointing. The front end is rather nasty. It's going to be a bit of a carve up to install the struts. I'm confident that you will find an elegant solution Alan Old Collingwood, mtaylor, Canute and 4 others 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 6, 2022 Author Share #51 Posted April 6, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, king derelict said: That plastic engine is disappointing. The front end is rather nasty. Yes Alan, it's a real disappointment I'm sad to say, not up to the quality of the rest of the kit unfortunately... The only parts that look useable are the compressor section and the exhaust section, the rest is going to need some serious re-working to come even close... 4 hours ago, king derelict said: I'm confident that you will find an elegant solution I'm going over my options.. one of the things I do have is the complete T.O. 2J-J47-24 which is the complete illustrated parts breakdown updated to 1975 and Field Maintenance & Replacement, Turbojet Engines, covering the J-47-GE-23 to J-47-GE-27, essentially the USAF's Chilton's manual for the J-47 engine, T.O 2J-J47-26 updated to 1974 as references..... If I had an actual engine I could rebuild it using that info... For example... Component Exploded View.... Surface Accessory Systems Routing Wrap... (shows the routing of all exterior tubing & wiring and where they connect) I have complete details on every part, and how they are supposed to fit together... I'm mulling over in my head if I want to take this alternate path and use that 3D printer I have.... If I can draw up the basic parts in Solidworks, (don't know how long that will take) I should be able to print up a complete engine overnight, the parts won't be that big... I know it will look one heck of a lot more realistic than anything I do with bashing the kits plastic afterthought of an engine... So I'm asking for opinions, I'm pretty sure I can do it better, but I've never done this 3D work before in an actual model creation environment... I have all the materials and tools needed... Wanna take this detour along with me? (I pretty much figure the parts I have coming will all be here by the time I'm done) What do you think Brothers? Edited April 6, 2022 by Egilman Jack12477, FriedClams, Edwardkenway and 5 others 8 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Collingwood Posted April 6, 2022 Share #52 Posted April 6, 2022 Brother - going the "Extra Mile" in our pursuit of realism is what we all do here, and frankly I don't think you will be happy unless you gave the 3D printing a try, you know you have our attention for the duration - and for me personally the more involved the project is - the more interest it has - its good to push the envelope so to speak. OC. Edwardkenway, king derelict, mtaylor and 5 others 7 1 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolley Roger Posted April 6, 2022 Share #53 Posted April 6, 2022 13 hours ago, Egilman said: No Spanner in the works.... The SAAF flew two different versions of the Sabre in Korea, the F-86F on loan from the USAF and their own purchased Canadair Sabre 13 Mk. 6's (F-86F's built by NAA in Palmdale for the Canadian AF) those Mk. 6's had grey cockpits, the SAAF Sabre's of 2 sqd, on loan from the USAF had black cockpits.... Read here where where it is directly discussed... (By SAAF historians and modelers) Negative sir, the SAAF purchased the Mk 6 after the Korean war, because of their experience with the F86 in Korea (i'm actually one of the 'historians' on the website you linked🙂) But, i'm not here to argue this minor detail with you, i'm here to see you build this wonderful model, 99%+ of Sabres would have had all black cockpits Would love to see you build the J-47 engine from scratch, lots to be learned Canute, lmagna, popeye the sailor and 6 others 9 Quote Samuel Pepys notes in his diary on 19 July 1667: "the Dutch fleets being in so many places, that Sir W. Batten at table cried, By God,says he, I think the Devil shits Dutchmen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javlin Posted April 6, 2022 Share #54 Posted April 6, 2022 5 hours ago, Jolley Roger said: 99%+ of Sabres would have had all black cockpits interesting!Why was that was the USAF following the RAF copit colors from late WWII ? Old Collingwood, Edwardkenway, FriedClams and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted April 6, 2022 Share #55 Posted April 6, 2022 I'd say go for the 3D as you have nothing to lose but some time. In return, you'll get your skills at 3D pushed up which will help when you go for the "ultimate project", whatever that might be. king derelict, popeye the sailor, lmagna and 5 others 7 1 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king derelict Posted April 6, 2022 Share #56 Posted April 6, 2022 I haven't really explored the 3D drawing side of the printing process beyond a few forays into Tinkercad. I guess the eight cans could be made separately and assembled as a ring. The inlet to the compressor and its four struts looks like the tricky bit needing a fairly thin wall section.. I guess that is not so much of an issue for a resin printer though. At first look the printer looks like the salvation for this. I don't see a hocolate related fix here😄 Alan lmagna, Old Collingwood, FriedClams and 5 others 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 6, 2022 Author Share #57 Posted April 6, 2022 (edited) On 4/6/2022 at 1:33 AM, Jolley Roger said: Negative sir, the SAAF purchased the Mk 6 after the Korean war, because of their experience with the F86 in Korea (i'm actually one of the 'historians' on the website you linked🙂) But, i'm not here to argue this minor detail with you, i'm here to see you build this wonderful model, 99%+ of Sabres would have had all black cockpits Would love to see you build the J-47 engine from scratch, lots to be learned On 4/6/2022 at 6:46 AM, Javlin said: interesting! Why was that was the USAF following the RAF copit colors from late WWII ? Your right roger, I went ahead and researched USAAC & USAF fighter cockpit colors WWII to post Korea... prior to WWII cockpit colors were generally ZC Yellow in the USAAC with black panels, (but it was all over the map as far as manufacturers using whatever they wanted) As WWII progress this changed to a mix of ZCG & ZCY and by 1943 an official directive was issued making the official cockpit color scheme Interior green, (a very dark form of ZC Green) and Matt Black from the lower edges of the instrument panels up... But still with the numbers of aircraft they were building per month, the manufacturers used whatever formulation of paints they could get as long as it held to the scheme... Post war, the USAAF retired virtually all it's fighter aircraft not tagged P-51 and turned over many existing deployed aircraft to allied nations... Along about 1947, the USAAF decided to change it's cockpit scheme in it's now F-51 aircraft to everything the pilot could see in the cockpit being black, everything else would be interior green except for the seat pan which would also be green... Of course this was of serious import to North American Aviation who was producing all these F-51's, their derivatives, and the soon to be F-86... 1948 the change in cockpit color scheme became official for all USAF fighter planes, with one change, Flat Black overall.... So NAA went to producing the F-86 with completely flat black cockpits. the change was easy for them as what they were producing was 99% black anyway... This lasted until November '53 just after the war ended, when they changed the scheme to Black panels over Grey Structure.... The orders also clearly laid out what to do with existing aircraft... When an aircraft came in for IRAN, the scheme would be changed to the new one anything less and they would leave it alone... There were probably aircraft in different schemes, rare but true... It usually took several months for a new scheme to be devised and tested and reported on and approved so I suspect some Sabres were painted Black over Grey in the cockpit prior to the end of the war, but not many.... Given the closeness to the end of the war the orders were issued making the change, I suspect this to be absolutely true... So the statement that 99% of the Sabre's built pre November '53 had all black cockpits is as far as I'm concerned completely true... Kevin, in 1943, the RAF and the USAAC got together and unified the color schemes for exchange aircraft, the AAC decided on what they were going to do with input from the RAF with the RAF agreeing to accept the aircraft as produced to make the production and delivery of thousands of aircraft under wartime condition more efficient... The RAF was using black in the cockpit from the start of WWII and the reason the AAC went to it could very well have been the suggestion or requirements of the RAF, I've been unable to find the smoking gun on that one though it does appear that it was a mutual decision and when the RAF started taking delivery of F-86's they accepted the all black cockpit as well.... In essence it was to ease fighter aircraft production issues during the war was the reason and it wasn't a complete adoption of British practice, kinda a compromise... That's the story as I've been able to piece it together, not definitive at all in any manner, just my opinion based upon the research I've done over the last day and a half... (although there are still many peeps that will argue the hell out of it, the preponderance of evidence say it was so) I hope that answers all questions as best as can be done... {chuckle} (I love to do research into such esoteric subjects as well) EG Edited April 15, 2022 by Egilman Edwardkenway, Canute, Jolley Roger and 5 others 8 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 6, 2022 Author Share #58 Posted April 6, 2022 18 hours ago, Old Collingwood said: Brother - going the "Extra Mile" in our pursuit of realism is what we all do here, and frankly I don't think you will be happy unless you gave the 3D printing a try, you know you have our attention for the duration - and for me personally the more involved the project is - the more interest it has - its good to push the envelope so to speak. OC. 12 hours ago, Jolley Roger said: Would love to see you build the J-47 engine from scratch, lots to be learned 2 hours ago, mtaylor said: I'd say go for the 3D as you have nothing to lose but some time. In return, you'll get your skills at 3D pushed up which will help when you go for the "ultimate project", whatever that might be. 1 hour ago, king derelict said: I haven't really explored the 3D drawing side of the printing process beyond a few forays into Tinkercad. I guess the eight cans could be made separately and assembled as a ring. The inlet to the compressor and its four struts looks like the tricky bit needing a fairly thin wall section.. I guess that is not so much of an issue for a resin printer though. At first look the printer looks like the salvation for this. I don't see a chocolate related fix here😄 Alan Thank you my friends, I think I'm gonna give it a shot, I might as well, I have nothing but time and the skills gained will be of great benefit in the future... Of course I'll document the steps as I go for those that want to follow along... First step was finding or creating a suitable accurate image of the J-47-GE-27 to use... and I found one, not in the J-47 manuals, but in the F-86F maintenance manual... (go figure)... Here it is... This will allow me to create the basic shapes as individual parts and sculpt them according to the parts drawings... (the accessories fairing is going to be interesting to sculpt) Now, to remember how to load an image in Solidworks.... Thank you brothers for your input it is appreciated... Old Collingwood, Canute, king derelict and 7 others 9 1 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 8, 2022 Author Share #59 Posted April 8, 2022 All right an update.... Took the image I posted above into Gimp and cleaned it of a few irregularities... Then loaded it up in Solidworks and scaled it 1-1 for modeling... Started with the intake, that's where the most issues were and seemed like as good a place as any... After a little more plugging around, (had to take a quickie refresher on SW) I got to what is beginning to resemble an intake for a Turbine engine.... More later... EG Danstream, Canute, Javlin and 10 others 13 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted April 9, 2022 Author Share #60 Posted April 9, 2022 Another small update brothers... The four vanes inside the intake.... It took four complete start-over type retries to get them to look right.... Next up is another difficult one, the retractable intake screens... They go in the four bays between the fins, a pair in each... They were for foreign object avoidance while on the ground and retracted into the intake plenum when they were airborne... They will be obvious when sitting on a dolly on the ground... It's coming along slowly... EG lmagna, yvesvidal, popeye the sailor and 6 others 9 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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