Poly rope - Which adhesive product?

[LyleK1]

I make my own rope using Guttermann poly threads.

Rope coils, hanks and serving a line require an adhesive to retain desired shapes or to prevent unraveling. For cotton, diluted PVA glue is the product of choice... it doesn't work with poly rope.

 

A spot of CA glue on a knot works great but is not practical for coils, hanks and served lines.

 

Any suggestions?

[Dr PR]

Several people have recommended shellac as a "binder" for loose rope ends, served lines, etc. It shouldn't react chemically with the polymer thread, and soaks into the thread/rope and dries as a hard colorless film.

[allanyed]

Hi Lyle,

Have you tried matte finish clear nail lacquer? 

Allan

[Jaager]

A Web search =

3 possible

A Loctite two part CA product    dangerous chemicals and probably tends to spread

A polyprop hot melt glue stick   difficult to hide, limit the amount, and not get burned fingers

One of the several Gorilla glue varieties.   no idea  - but it could be company hype passing as objective rec

 

PE and PP have a surface that is glass-like in that there is no opportunity for a mechanical bond system to work.

 

[LyleK1]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Hi Lyle,

Have you tried matte finish clear nail lacquer? 

Allan

I have not…

Leaning toward trying clear shellac.

But not opposed to trying the lacquer too.

The “Downy” method is intriguing too… but need more info on it.

Edited May 14, 2022 by LyleK1

[Roger Pellett]

Clear lacquer nail polish in the little bottles with the brush in the lid are ideal for model ship rigging.  

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

   I'd recommend thinned model airplane 'dope' ... a familiar name was Aerogloss, which sold thinner separately as straight dope is too thick for this application.  Old-fashioned hobby shops used to sell this, but there are far fewer such shops around - so one may have to go on-line.  Otherwise, clear nail polish (preferably thinned) can work.  BTW use with plenty of ventilation in small amounts because of the odor/outgassing.

 

  Another product one used to find was Duco cement, which also sold a thinner.  Once again, kids got into the habit of 'sniffing' any of these so they are far less available to prevent abuse.  Try buying more than one can of spray paint at most hardware stores ... there is some kind of program to prevent 'youths' from getting spray paint for graffiti.

 

  Best to experiment on test pieces first to assure suitability for the effect you want with rigging elements.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Add my vote for clear shellac. I've used thinned PVA, which has a drying time longer than I prefer and is very difficult to undo once it's dried if a mistake is made in the rigging. I also used thinned nail polish, but it also is somewhat difficult to reverse if one wishes to do so. Thin CA spreads everywhere and is not easily undone once cured. It also can conflict with other coatings with which it comes in contact.

 

I've found thinned white (clear) shellac has the following advantages over the other options:

 

1.   Low cost and universal availability.

2.   Also a universal sealer for wood which hardens the surface and permits sanding without bringing up any "fuzz" in softer woods (e.g. basswoood,) making it great for topcoats of both solvent and water-based varnish or paint. This means one less specialty product container on the shelf.

3.   Non-toxic. Although prepared shellac is undoubtedly thinned with denatured alcohol, you're safe so long as you don't drink it. The alcohol fumes are nontoxic and less flammable than acetone fumes from nail polish. Shellac itself is actually edible and when produced in "food grade" form is used for imparting a shine to jelly beans, among other things. (Sorry if I spoiled anybody's love of jelly beans by revealing that they're coated with beetle excretion!)

4.   Thinned shellac is very viscous and penetrates very well. When the alcohol evaporates, the shellac creates a hard matrix between the fibers of the thread that binds the knots and holds the shape intended. As the alcohol evaporates and the shellac "thickens," lines can be easily formed into any shape desired, which will take a hard set when the shellac is fully "dry." It takes a matter of a few minutes for the alcohol to entirely evaporate, so there's no inconvenient delay waiting for it to set, but enough working time to form shapes desired.

5.   Thinned shellac does not leave a glossy finish. If a thick coat of shellac dries glossy, it is easily wiped down with alcohol to remove the glossy excess.

6.  Shellac is easily reversed by liberal applications of alcohol blotted up with a bit of paper towel or a cotton swab. When softened with the alcohol, previously shellacked knots can be untied while the shellac is "wet" and soft if you wish to redo the work or adjust the tension on a line.

7.   Shellac is very easily cleaned up with alcohol, so you can use whatever size brush suits your fancy and easily clean it.

8.   Shellac has been proved over thousands of years to be archivally stable. 

[dvm27]

So how do you thin your shellac? with 95% alcohol and, if so, at what dilution?

[LyleK1]

3 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Add my vote for clear shellac. I've used thinned PVA, which has a drying time longer than I prefer and is very difficult to undo once it's dried if a mistake is made in the rigging. I also used thinned nail polish, but it also is somewhat difficult to reverse if one wishes to do so. Thin CA spreads everywhere and is not easily undone once cured. It also can conflict with other coatings with which it comes in contact.

 

I've found thinned white (clear) shellac has the following advantages over the other options:

 

1.   Low cost and universal availability.

2.   Also a universal sealer for wood which hardens the surface and permits sanding without bringing up any "fuzz" in softer woods (e.g. basswoood,) making it great for topcoats of both solvent and water-based varnish or paint. This means one less specialty product container on the shelf.

3.   Non-toxic. Although prepared shellac is undoubtedly thinned with denatured alcohol, you're safe so long as you don't drink it. The alcohol fumes are nontoxic and less flammable than acetone fumes from nail polish. Shellac itself is actually edible and when produced in "food grade" form is used for imparting a shine to jelly beans, among other things. (Sorry if I spoiled anybody's love of jelly beans by revealing that they're coated with beetle excretion!)

4.   Thinned shellac is very viscous and penetrates very well. When the alcohol evaporates, the shellac creates a hard matrix between the fibers of the thread that binds the knots and holds the shape intended. As the alcohol evaporates and the shellac "thickens," lines can be easily formed into any shape desired, which will take a hard set when the shellac is fully "dry." It takes a matter of a few minutes for the alcohol to entirely evaporate, so there's no inconvenient delay waiting for it to set, but enough working time to form shapes desired.

5.   Thinned shellac does not leave a glossy finish. If a thick coat of shellac dries glossy, it is easily wiped down with alcohol to remove the glossy excess.

6.  Shellac is easily reversed by liberal applications of alcohol blotted up with a bit of paper towel or a cotton swab. When softened with the alcohol, previously shellacked knots can be untied while the shellac is "wet" and soft if you wish to redo the work or adjust the tension on a line.

7.   Shellac is very easily cleaned up with alcohol, so you can use whatever size brush suits your fancy and easily clean it.

8.   Shellac has been proved over thousands of years to be archivally stable. 

Thanks Bob!

Clearly and concisely answered any questions I had...

I've decided to get some clear shellac and Liquitex Matte Medium to experiment with on my ropes.

Once I have both one hand, I'll try out a few different coils, hanks and served lines.

I'll report back here  on my findings and conclusions. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by LyleK1

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, dvm27 said:

So how do you thin your shellac? with 95% alcohol and, if so, at what dilution?

It's properly referred to as "thin shellac," not "thinned shellac.") Most canned pre-mixed shellac (e.g. Zinsser's Bullseye brand) is, I believe "two pound cut," which means two pounds of shellac flakes dissolved per gallon of alcohol. (It will thicken in the can over time if you leave it opened and the alcohol evaporates. Just add more alcohol to thin it out again.) Thin it as you please. For setting knots, I just use it right out of the can and if it looks like it needs it, I'll add a bit of alcohol to the can. (You can purchase dried shellac flakes on line in different shades of colors. The "white" or clear shellac flakes are bleached. I've never bothered with them, but if you wish, just mix denatured alcohol with the flakes to suit your taste.)

 

For thinning shellac and cleaning brushes, etc., use plain old denatured alcohol which I buy by the gallon at the hardware or paint store. (It's sold in smaller containers, of course, but it has an unlimited shelf life and buying in bulk yields a big savings and fewer trips to the store to buy more.) It's a stock item in my shop. I use it for lots of different things (e.g. in an alcohol lab lamp for burning fuzz off of rigging line or in marine alcohol cooking stoves.

 

Canned pre-mixed shellac runs around $28 a quart (like everything, the price has gone up!) You can buy it in pints, too, and for modeling, a pint should be good for rigging a half dozen Victory models.   You can also purchase it in a three pound cut, but that stuff is twice the price. I never saw the point, since if you want it thicker, just leave a bit out and let the alcohol evaporate, or put an additional coat of two pound cut on top of the first. There are uses for very thick shellac as an adhesive, electrical insulator, and molding medium, but most of these applications are now better served by modern materials. Prior to the invention of vinyl, 78 RPM phonograph records were made of shellac. If you have any old 78's you don't want, grind them up and dissolve them in alcohol and you're good to go, although the liquid shellac will be black!  )

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Bob Cleek

[Jaager]

23 hours ago, dvm27 said:

So how do you thin your shellac? with 95% alcohol and, if so, at what dilution?

For this rigging function,  starting with Zinsser clear - any dilution would be a wet finger in the wind sort of thing, but probably in the very slight range  i.e.  1 part thinner to 9 parts saturated shellac.

 

Shellac has several grades

one is ruby red

more common is amber

then blonde / super blonde- which is also termed clear

there is also an "ultra" clear grade that probably falls the negative side of a cost vs benefit determination.

The material removed to lighten the color is a wax - or it is called a wax.

This wax also helps solublize the shellac.  The closer the grade is to water clear, the lower is the concentration at saturation.

Also, shellac flakes have a definite shelf life.  The older the flakes, the less soluble they are.  If they do not dissolve fairly quickly, I would advise trashing them, eat the loss and buy fresh.

If you are not familiar with shellac - it is probably better to buy the already dissolved version.  The aerosol version strikes me as being a completely absurd and pointless product.

 

Shellac is soluble in alcohols.

Way back when, it was methanol (methyl alcohol, wood alcohol)  It has the advantage is being free of water.  It will also ruin your life if you drink it.  It may be difficult to find now.

Shellac thinner now is ethanol. From a practical position it is 95%.  The 5% water is all but covalently bonded.

Shellac "loves" water.  It shows its joy in binding with it, by turning white.  It is easily repaired, but no fun to do.

The 5% in shellac thinner is not enough water to be a problem

100% isopropyl alcohol will also work as a solvent

A primer coat of shellac on a wood surface is a 1:1 dilution of the saturated shellac.

Amber shellac seems to be about twice as soluble as super blonde -  the ultra is maybe even less soluble with a short shelf life.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Jaager

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, Jaager said:

Shellac thinner now is ethanol

Jaager, In all seriousness your sharing of your wealth of knowledge in many areas is greatly appreciated.

 

On the lighter side,....... so if one has a bottle of Culinary Solvent or Everclear in the pantry, they are good to go for thinning shellac as well as having other more fun uses.  Sounds good to me!

 

Allan

 

[LyleK1]

2 hours ago, Dee_Dee said:

With 50+ years of sewing experience, 'Beacon Fabri-Tac' is the best fabric / fiber glue I have used. 

 

>>NOT to be confused with 'Aleene's Tacky Glue' or other glues with similar names.<<

 

Beacon Fabri-Tac is the glue fashion designers use to glue sequins / trim to wedding gowns, movie / theater costumes, dance wear and more.   

 

The glue does not flow or discolor and the fabric / fibers remain flexible. 

 

As with all glues, experiment to find the right amount of glue to apply. 

 

https://www.beaconadhesives.com/product/fabri-tac/

 

 

Another option to try...

I've already purchased the other two products. If they are not up to standards, I'll try this one next.

Thanks for the tip Dee-Dee.

[Gregory]

On 5/14/2022 at 12:07 AM, LyleK1 said:

...it doesn't work with poly rope.

 

Kind of late to the show, but what do you mean by " doesn't work " ?

I have used highly diluted white glue on poly rope.  It penetrates down to the fiber level ( does not penetrate the fibers, of course ) and provides a binder

that holds the shape of coils as well as securing knots.   I use about 50% water for knots, and  75-80% for coils.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gregory

[LyleK1]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

I use about 50% water for knots, and  75-80% for coils

Maybe my solution was diluted too much?

My coils just came apart and the served line unraveled completely.

I soak both and let them dry overnight too.

Edited May 17, 2022 by LyleK1

[Dave_E]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:11 PM, Bob Cleek said:

Add my vote for clear shellac. I've used thinned PVA, which has a drying time longer than I prefer and is very difficult to undo once it's dried if a mistake is made in the rigging. I also used thinned nail polish, but it also is somewhat difficult to reverse if one wishes to do so. Thin CA spreads everywhere and is not easily undone once cured. It also can conflict with other coatings with which it comes in contact.

 

I've found thinned white (clear) shellac has the following advantages over the other options:

 

1.   Low cost and universal availability.

2.   Also a universal sealer for wood which hardens the surface and permits sanding without bringing up any "fuzz" in softer woods (e.g. basswoood,) making it great for topcoats of both solvent and water-based varnish or paint. This means one less specialty product container on the shelf.

 

After using it as a sealer… can acrylic paint be applied? Can shellac be stored in a squeeze bottle? Thought about how to store it in smaller quantities. Sounds like a pain to open and close a qt can every time you need to use it. 😑

 

The nail polish is attractive for rigging, but I can’t take the fumes. Thinned white glue is ok, except your always remaking your concoction because it sets up so fast. Can you thin PVA glue and then store it in a small squeeze bottle? I’ve been using CA with a needle point, however as mentioned, your left with little shiny spots, but it is darn convenient.

 

Think I’ll have a go with the shellac to see how I like it.

[Gregory]

19 minutes ago, Dave_E said:

Can shellac be stored in a squeeze bottle?

I've stored it in a small air tight container with no problems.

 

The thing about shellac, is that it doesn't cure like varnish and other stuff. 

The solvent, usually alcohol can evaporate and cause it to thicken or harden, but adding alcohol will bring it back to it's original consistency.

[LyleK1]

23 minutes ago, Dave_E said:

After using it as a sealer… can acrylic paint be applied? Can shellac be stored in a squeeze bottle? Thought about how to store it in smaller quantities. Sounds like a pain to open and close a qt can every time you need to use it. 😑

 

The nail polish is attractive for rigging, but I can’t take the fumes. Thinned white glue is ok, except your always remaking your concoction because it sets up so fast. Can you thin PVA glue and then store it in a small squeeze bottle? I’ve been using CA with a needle point, however as mentioned, your left with little shiny spots, but it is darn convenient.

 

Think I’ll have a go with the shellac to see how I like it.

You cannot store it in a squeeze bottle... it evaporates very fast. You can buy it in smaller quantities but still have to open the can!

[Gregory]

I have squeeze bottles with airtight caps and it stores just fine..

 

 

Bottles

Edited May 19, 2022 by Gregory

[Dave_E]

On my way to the Hobby Lobby to get an assortment of bottles, glue and shellac. I will experiment and share my findings. Who knew you could practice chemistry while building wooden model ships. 😆

[Bob Cleek]

I buy Zinsser Bullseye shellac by the quart at the hardware store. You can get it in pint cans, as well. (Don't buy the spray cans. That's just nuts.) When it suits my needs, I decant some into a small capped container. I collect baby food and spice jars for this purpose. I wouldn't advise storing shellac in a squeeze bottle. It's' very viscous and there really isn't any occasion to squeeze it onto anything and if you did, it would run all over everything. Once it's out in the air, the alcohol evaporates quickly. I apply it with a paint brush which I clean with alcohol in a small capped container. As the shellac is rinsed out of the brush, it dissolves in the alcohol. I use this alcohol with the shellac in it to mix with the shellac if it needs thinning. The can of shellac and a couple of small bottles is all I need.

[Gregory]

5 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I wouldn't advise storing shellac in a squeeze bottle.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I have occasion to use very small amounts, and will put a few drops in the target area and spread it with a brush.

If I need more,  the tops of the bottles screw off and I can pour what I need in a small dish  or whatever.

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, Gregory said:

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I have occasion to use very small amounts, and will put a few drops in the target area and spread it with a brush.

If I need more,  the tops of the bottles screw off and I can pour what I need in a small dish  or whatever.

Indeed. If it works for you, go for it!  

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

Here is what I have put together since this thread started. Pictured left to right: shellac, poly urethane, thinned white PVA, thinned wood PVA, CA, thin CA. The shellac, poly and the thinned PVA stores and works great out of the squeeze bottles. During my ratline learning experience, I used every one of these except the thin CA. They all worked. That being said, I loved the way the shellac soaked into the rope and was invisible afterwards. The poly did the same thing, except I can’t take the fumes. Can’t move things around as fast as when you use CA, and when I did use CA, yep got the shiny blob, going to have to maybe touch up with some paint. Each of these adhesives have their own personalities and uses in rigging (and any other building). 

 

I think I am a shellac convert and can see its use as a sealer before paint and as an adhesive for some rigging. The only drawback is it really drys up fast when you put a drop or two on a plate to dip a needle point into. Oh well. So, that’s my research. 😀
 

 

[allanyed]

Your research/testing is impressive to say the least.  A great lesson for everyone so as to allow each to decide what they like best.

Great post Dave, thanks

Allan

[LyleK1]

Well done, Dave!

My results are in the next post!

[LyleK1]

So, as I posted above I decided to try clear shellac and Liquitex Matte Medium.

I made a jig to help with making the rope hanks... some trial and error to get the size(s) that I wanted:

As can be seen, on the left is the hank made using clear shellac and on the right is the Liquitex.

After making the necessary winds on each hank, I dabbed the tops and bottoms of the loops with the product nearest to it.

The first time, I did not allow it to dry enough and had to restart.

On the second attempt, I let both dry several hours. However, after about an hour, I did return and twisted the nails to keep the hanks from sticking. I also have packing tape on the wood to prevent adhesion:

 

After a few hours, I used an Exacto-knife to remove loops:

The hank with the shellac was very fragile and came apart too easily. Both attempts yielded the same results. However, the hanks maybe a bit more realistic looking... more on that in a bit.

The hank pictured above is assembled with the Liquitex. The Liquitex consistently did a better job of adhering the rope. But it does have issues too. The biggest issue is the residue it left.

Look closely at the next photo:

The residue may be solved by either, using less product or possibly, diluting it just a bit.

As I do more hanks, I'll try to refine my process.

For me, the Liquitex is the better choice but... I still want to try the shellac on knots! 

Here's a couple photos of my first few completed and temporarily placed:

Liquitex version above

 

Shellac version - I think it looks a little more realistic. The Liquitex are almost too close to perfect.

 

Liquitex version

 

I also produced one rope coil (loosely rolled) using the Liquitex:

Although certainly not conclusive, for me, I have my answer and will use the Liquitex for the hanks and coils. The jury is still out on the shellac for knots, etc. I'll update the group when I have a chance to try it. It might be a bit as I am headed out on a boat trip soon... be back in the late summer or early fall!

 

[modeller_masa]

Here comes the new challenger! After I purchased neutral ph PVA bond by Lineco, which produces professional recovery tools for librarians and museums, I researched the ph values of adhesives that potentially damage cotton threads. Polyester threads are fine with an acidic ph. 

 

All commercial PVA bonds except the Lineco's : ph 2~4

Zinsser shellac : ph 2~4 (Misunderstood)

Rustins shellac sanding sealer : ph 7.0

Most acrylic paints and mediums : ph 5~6.5

CA glue : Tailors never use the glue.

Polyurethane varnish : ph 6.0~7.5

 

This is a reason I changed all the rigging threads from DMC cordonnet special to Amann Serafil. My major isn't a chemical, so I don't know how exactly the high acidic adhesives change the conditions of cotton threads in the long term. I hope you add one more variable on the comparison table. 😆

 

// revised the shellac sanding sealer : I found a reliable ph value from MSDS.

Edited July 4, 2022 by modeller_masa