Hawker Typhoon Mk 1b by Realworkingsailor - FINISHED - Airfix - 1/72

[realworkingsailor]

22 minutes ago, JKC27 said:

I'm starting to wonder if maybe my impression that there is not a lot of WWII Canadian aircraft models is false....not a lot of RCAF markings are offered, yet our pilots mostly flew under RAF colours, if I a not mistaken, as I am certainly not up my Canadian military history. 

 

I will get a thread started on our club Lanc build in the next day or so.

Looking forward to seeing your club Lanc build!

 

As to the RAF/RCAF, all it takes is a little research, (and maybe a little luck). There’s a good selection of aftermarket options (like decals), that can easily alter a stock British (or American) airplane into a Canadian one. 

 

But manufacturers are not totally deaf either, for instance Airfix’s new 1/48 Avro Anson comes from the factory with Canadian markings (among others).

 

 Andy

[JKC27]

4 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said:

Looking forward to seeing your club Lanc build!

 

As to the RAF/RCAF, all it takes is a little research, (and maybe a little luck). There’s a good selection of aftermarket options (like decals), that can easily alter a stock British (or American) airplane into a Canadian one. 

 

But manufacturers are not totally deaf either, for instance Airfix’s new 1/48 Avro Anson comes from the factory with Canadian markings (among others).

 

 Andy

Just started a thread on the Lanc - will post some pics tonight or in the next day or so.

 

Here's hoping someone (likely Kinetic) comes out with a qualify Avro Arrow kit - they just released the Tutor trainer (Snowbirds) kit.

[realworkingsailor]

17 minutes ago, Egilman said:

The Green is good brother, but they painted for contrast, the Dark Grey is just a tad too dark, the lighter one looks to me to be the ticket, I always thought that RAF Sea Grey had a touch of blue in it... (and gives the proper contrast)

 

Wartime color shots...

Museum color shot showing the same coloration..

Thanks EG!

 

I find sometimes colour photos can be somewhat tricky, as time can play havoc with film pigments (to say nothing of the lighting). And sometimes the colourists can be a little sneaky too!

 

I think there are too many variables when it comes to comparing with photos. Obviously the best option would be to find the original paint formulation. Lacking first hand confirmation, it comes down to a gut reaction: which option looks the best.

 

Hopefully a few more people will chime in with their opinions, I’m still undecided. 🤔

 

Andy

[Edwardkenway]

I'm with EG, the lighter one, I think  the darker grey is too dark for a sea grey.

[AJohnson]

I agree with @Egilman the Grey I think was more on the blue side, now that stated, that is entirely based on seeing restored examples in the flesh and historic colour photographs, but they commonly have a bluish tinge. Just my 2p, so I’d plumb for the right one. Also out in the field paint very quickly oxidises and fades/bleaches, which is why many of the contemporary field photographs do look paler and perhaps bluer.  The left one is too “warm” a grey for me.

Sorry not helping! 🤣

[Egilman]

45 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said:

Lacking first hand confirmation, it comes down to a gut reaction: which option looks the best.

Agreed, but one thing I've learned over the years of doing camo research, the more color shots you get from different sources all showing the same thing, usually means your close to spot on.... I've pulled up about 100 such wartime color photos and haven't seen one in that dark shade yet.... (a quarter shade off on many of them yes, but they all show that bluish tint)

 

But it's your airplane, and you know how I feel, build it as you envision it my friend, I'm sure it will be fabulous....

[realworkingsailor]

22 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

I agree with @Egilman the Grey I think was more on the blue side, now that stated, that is entirely based on seeing restored examples in the flesh and historic colour photographs, but they commonly have a bluish tinge. Just my 2p, so I’d plumb for the right one. Also out in the field paint very quickly oxidises and fades/bleaches, which is why many of the contemporary field photographs do look paler and perhaps bluer.  The left one is too “warm” a grey for me.

Sorry not helping! 🤣

All opinions welcome! I am leaning in the direction that you, @Egilman and@Edwardkenway have suggested. The more I look at it under different light conditions, the more “correct” the bluer grey seems. I’m wondering if the darker grey might be more appropriate for some of the early war Coastal Command or FAA aircraft (Sunderlands and whatnot).

 

Andy

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by realworkingsailor

[Canute]

I like the right hand color. The wartime photos all show a marked contrast between colors. It can't be only the gray fading to achieve the color contrast, so it must be the lighter shade.

[realworkingsailor]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback! One thing I like about this forum, there's no shortage of help if you're willing to ask!

 

Although I am very inclined to agree with the major opinion that the blue/grey preferred, I am going to run the test one more time to be certain. The light today is much flatter than yesterday's, and I've cut off the unpainted sections of plastic. I've also sprayed a small swatch of medium grey (the underside colour), for an additional comparison.

 

First up the darker grey:

 

 

The contrast with the green is a little more pronounced this time around, and there's a fair contrast with the lighter grey underside colour.

 

Next up the bluer grey (and the popular choice):

 

 

Again, the contrast with the dark green is still good, not quite as much with the underside colour, though.

 

 

For reference here is yesterday's photo:

 

 

Let me know what you all think, if the light or the addition of the light grey panel changes your opinion(s) any.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

[ccoyle]

The pictures don't look that much different to me. I can only say that in all of my printed card model kits from that period, the RAF gray (or should we say 'grey'?) definitely has a bluish tint.

[Danstream]

I am a user of Tamiya acrylics and for my Tempest I am going to use theirs XF-54 Dark Sea Grey and XF-81Dark Green (RAF). I find that these are good matches. These are also the color I used for early NATO camouflage.

Cheers,

Dan 

[Edwardkenway]

I'm still plumping for the lighter grey.

It must be said that, in the different light, the darker one does look a tad lighter.

My two pence worth

[AJohnson]

This is so subjective, my gut is still with the lighter blue/grey but it is marginal.  Andy your kit, go with what looks good to you in the flesh. Even good digital pics are a facsimile of the real thing. Either way you will make a great job of the camo.  

I’m not sure if you have laid another trap for the “squeaky ones”, is that the sound of a chainsaw I hear?  🤔🤣

[realworkingsailor]

3 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

This is so subjective, my gut is still with the lighter blue/grey but it is marginal.  Andy your kit, go with what looks good to you in the flesh. Even good digital pics are a facsimile of the real thing. Either way you will make a great job of the camo.  

I’m not sure if you have laid another trap for the “squeaky ones”, is that the sound of a chainsaw I hear?  🤔🤣

LOL, nah, no traps, besides I’m not yet allowed to do any heavy lifting! 😜

 

To be honest, I still have no preference, nor do I have any conclusive evidence to support one shade of grey or the other.

I did find some well lit photos of preserved Typhoon MN235 at the RAF museum:

 

https://warbirdsnews.com/aviation-museum-news/hawker-typhoon-back-on-display-at-raf-museum-london.html
 

While the dark grey on MN235 is pretty well spot on for the blue/grey option, I’m not certain how accurate it may be. The article above includes a fairly extensive historical timeline for the airplane, including repaintings (1972 and 1994). Lacking further references for these events I can’t determine if the painters used the correct paint, what was on hand, or, for later repainting, just copied what had been done before.

 

Andy

[CDW]

In general, I almost always prefer lighter shades to darker shades on my models, regardless of what is the subject. Not saying it's right, it's just what I prefer. I seldom ever look at one of my finished models and say to myself, "gee, I wish I had painted that a little darker shade." I do often say the opposite to myself. 

[Egilman]

10 hours ago, realworkingsailor said:

if the light or the addition of the light grey panel changes your opinion(s) any.

Actually brother, the underside grey tells the tale compared to the pics I find... I'll stay with the bluish grey, under direct light the contrasts are good.... 

 

It will look the real deal, under the new light, the green looks a bit dark maybe half a shade... but it won't matter when on the aircraft... the green will come thru...

 

I think you have it nailed my friend...

[Danstream]

Hi all, after my post above where I referred to Tamiya XF-54 for the RAF ocean grey, I searched on internet and found that this color is not a good match because apparently it doesn't have enough blueness. Not wanting to give you wrong indications, I am writing this correction. However, Tamiya is now producing their XF-82 which is supposed to match specifically the RAF OG. Perhaps, you could search for this paint just to get some clue about how it looks like. Obviously, I will get this latter color for my model (or the equivalent Gunze).

Cheers,

Dan

[realworkingsailor]

Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback. I think it's safe to say we've all settled on the lighter/bluer shade of grey, and I'm happy with that choice. I'm going to throw a couple more paint chips at you all, although this time it's a quick comparison of greens.

 

The natural lighting is flat again today, but should still be adequate.

 

 

The first option for green. This is the same green that was voted (unanimously) the favourite when I was building my Wellington. It looked good against the dark earth colour, but in the flat light, against the two greys, it comes up a little brown.

 

 

This is the second option for green. It definitely shows as green in the flat light, and shows well agains the grey(s). In bright light in can look a little olive, but it seems a better match for the green on the museum bird in the article in my previous post.

 

Just for a laugh, here's the paint sample I posted for my Wellington (the green chips above were cut directly from this sample piece):

 

 

Sure changes the way those greens show, although if I remember correctly, that was in indirect sunlight.

 

Anyway, I'm still interested to hear what everyone has to say. 

 

Andy

 

[AJohnson]

My vote is for the second green, just based on the pictures with the greys, but they look totally different when next to the brown! ?

[realworkingsailor]

2 hours ago, AJohnson said:

My vote is for the second green, just based on the pictures with the greys, but they look totally different when next to the brown! ?

Some of that may be exaggerated due to the ambient light, as well as my camera, but in reality there is still a startling difference in the tonality. I think a sunny day is forecast for Wednesday, I’ll post one more set of photos for a final confirmation. I’m also leaning towards the lighter green as well.

 

Andy

[Egilman]

I think you will be happier with the second green as well...

[realworkingsailor]

Thanks again guys! Well, the sun came out a little earlier than expected, so I've gone for one last kick at the colouring can!

 

All things being as equal as they can, here's the first chip, as per my Wellington build, against my green cutting mat:

 

 

This comes pretty close to the earlier sample I posted.

 

 

Same light and background as the first photo. With the double grey, the dark green still comes perilously close to dark brown. It looks much better better against the dark earth, than against the grey(s).

 

 

Where the lighter green looked very olive-y against the dark earth colour, against the grey(s) it looks much better, closer to what the prototype colour would have been. I think my decision has been confirmed with this final colour comparison.

 

The nice thing about playing with paint chips is that it can be done ad-infinitum, ad-nauseam without harming any models. I've done this many times for many models to evaluate possible painting schemes and colour combinations. It's a very useful tool/procedure.

 

Incidentally, I must apologize for those faint dark streaks in the photos... it seems there's a fair degree of dog-snog on the window glass (from where the dog presses her nose up against the glass while trying to hypnotize the squirrels). When the weather warms up, I shall have to wash my windows!

 

Andy

[ccoyle]

Just to mess with your head some more, here's how Marcin Dworzecki interpreted the RAF colors for Halinski's Mk V kit:

 

https://www.kartonbau.de/forum/thema/37975-hawker-tempest-1-33-4-2012-von-halinski/

[realworkingsailor]

20 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

Just to mess with your head some more, here's how Marcin Dworzecki interpreted the RAF colors for Halinski's Mk V kit:

 

https://www.kartonbau.de/forum/thema/37975-hawker-tempest-1-33-4-2012-von-halinski/

 

Looks pretty good, doesn’t look too far different.

If you want some real fun, try to figure out how the Malta based RAF Spitfires were painted during the siege in ‘42. 
 

Andy

[Egilman]

1 hour ago, realworkingsailor said:

If you want some real fun, try to figure out how the Malta based RAF Spitfires were painted during the siege in ‘42.

Yeah, I still believe there might be some personal photos from that period floating around, but none online unfortunately, there aren't very many verifiable pics in B&W either... (they were a bit busy between flying and bomb sheltering to worry about pics)

 

But if your talking '43, after the worst of the siege was over, there are some archives that have decent color pics, but don't expect miracles....

 

For example...

 

You can pretty much see colors, schemes and patterns were pretty much a gathering of everything the RAF was doing everywhere, Essentially there was no real facilities for such treatments, at Malta you were there to fight, and they repaired aircraft as best they could, paint schemes were very low priority....

Edited March 14, 2023 by Egilman

[CDW]

Good stuff EG

[realworkingsailor]

Yeah, after the siege was lifted, they all seem to have reverted to standard camo, but I’m more curious about the by-necessity free for all that happened during the siege.
 

Records are sketchy, from what I’ve found, the Spitfire squadrons were, at some point, able to scrounge a bucket or two of extra dark sea grey from a Beaufighter squadron. But there’s no visual record on how it was applied (other than memories and recollections that it had to be thinned down to make it go further). 
 

I’m considering, sometime in the future, trying my hand at making a model of one of George Beurling’s Spitfires. 

 

Andy

[Egilman]

2 hours ago, realworkingsailor said:

trying my hand at making a model of one of George Beurling’s Spitfires

Well he was stationed there early '43 to mid '44... 30 victories while there...

 

His assigned Spit Mk Vc, is likened to green over gray in most of the documentaries, but there is B&W photography that shows it is various contrasting shades that some have interpreted as Green/Grey, Green/Brown or Brown/Brown... Unfortunately, I have never found any record of what his recollections were of his color schema.... (much less the pattern) Most go with the Green over Grey in a right to left pattern and they were able, like you mention, to scrounge the grey from the Mossie squadrons....

 

Difficult one to nail down.... But it would be a beautiful build....

[realworkingsailor]

39 minutes ago, Egilman said:

Well he was stationed there early '43 to mid '44... 30 victories while there...

 

His assigned Spit Mk Vc, is likened to green over gray in most of the documentaries, but there is B&W photography that shows it is various contrasting shades that some have interpreted as Green/Grey, Green/Brown or Brown/Brown... Unfortunately, I have never found any record of what his recollections were of his color schema.... (much less the pattern) Most go with the Green over Grey in a right to left pattern and they were able, like you mention, to scrounge the grey from the Mossie squadrons....

 

Difficult one to nail down.... But it would be a beautiful build....

I will nit-pick the year, Beurling was in Malta in 1942 (June through October). 😉

 

I’ve seen a few striking interpretations of the Malta Spits where the “Mid Stone” of the standard RAF tropical camouflage scheme was replaced with EDSG: 

 

https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/BR323

 

Andy

[AJohnson]

47 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said:

I will nit-pick the year, Beurling was in Malta in 1942 (June through October). 😉

 

I’ve seen a few striking interpretations of the Malta Spits where the “Mid Stone” of the standard RAF tropical camouflage scheme was replaced with EDSG: 

 

https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/BR323

 

Andy

Here's my take on a Malta Vb, (1/48 Airfix, new mould), with European theatre sky underside, not the Azure blue.  Similar to those pictures Andy.