HMS Indefatigable 1794 by Blue Ensign - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64 scale

[chris watton]

I did agonise for days about the poop skylight position. The safer ground was to leave it as per the plans, as no one can really argue against that, with no evidence to the contrary available (as far as I know, and I did look...). Initially, I did add a belaying rack to each side of the poop rails, but this didn't look quite right to me, with these being very exposed in battle.

 

However, I could not get the thought out of my mind that it (the skylight) was just too close the poop rails, with the shortended poop deck. I became convinced Pellew would have asked/ordered for the skylight to be moved aft, as the mizzen bits certainly would have had to have been moved aft, unless left 'floating', forward of the poop.

[Blue Ensign]

The skylight in it’s original position did look odd, and much better moved to over the Great cabin.

Had the Poop deck remained as originally designed to incorporate the Mizen then the bitts on the Poop deck  would have been in order.

With Pellew’s request to shorten the poop, leaving the Mizen  exposed on the Qtr deck, Mizen bitts on the poop make no sense, they are badly positioned for belaying many of the lines that directly lead down the mast.

 

The one thing common to Bitts is that they are close to the mast.

Could there not have been a  mast ring on the Mizen, there looks to be room.

 

At this point I have not looked at the kit rigging plans to see where lines such as the clews, lifts, and bunts are belayed as I am not masting and rigging her.

 

It is a tricky business trying to interpret what may have been, but for me it just feels wrong in this instance.

I acknowledge the effort and thought you put into the design of these models Chris, I too agonise over details, and we all hope to get things as good as they can be.

 

Always more questions than answers.

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

exposed on the  upper deck

[Thukydides]

I really enjoy these posts where you talk through your thoughts process. I think these such posts on your alert log have been the most helpful to me as they allow me to see the why not just the what.

[Blue Ensign]

Thank you Thuky,

 

Writing this stuff helps me sort my own thoughts, and provides a record of why I did things. In the past I have been asked why did you do that, and  I was damned if I could remember.🙄

It also provides me with a break from actual  building, and I simply enjoy it.

 

I'm glad you find it helpful.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[Morgan]

Hi BE,

 

The RN had experience of dealing with masts is this situation, usually the Mainmast when the QD finished abaft of it.  The solution was to build a small island projection out from the QD.  You see this on several NMM models such as Victory, Royal George and Royal William - I haven’t searched further.  I attach a screen shot of SLR0512 (Victory) as an example.  I don’t see why Indy wouldn’t be fitted any differently.  It lifts the deck working of the mast out of crowded area your model highlights.

 

Gary

 

 

[Blue Ensign]

Thanks for looking in Gary, I love that model of Victory, but the arrangement lasted but a few years around the mid 18thc.

Victory 1765

The Poop on Victory is similar to how the Poop would have looked on Indy when razeed, but before it was further reduced in depth at the request of Pellew.

The official plan only shows the original modification but notes that the request was made and actioned.

2358

You can see from the plan a bitt pin very close behind the Mizen mast and the Skylight, or maybe a hatchway close behind it.

 

On the kit interpretation the Mizen bitts are some 8’ from the mast, which is a long way from the usual arrangement

It can be seen that the poop extends beyond the third port and gives some cover to the helmsman.

 

How it was actually configured we shall probably never know, so it’s down to educated guesswork, and I’m still troubled by the position of those bitts.

The simplest  option for me is to leave them off, that way I won’t continually look at the model and think- should they really be there.

 

Ps I must get back up to Hartlepool, been a few years since I last visited Trincomalee.

 

B.E

 

[Morgan]

Hi BE,

 

Absent specific evidence it is anyone’s guess, so no right and no wrong.

 

I would say of the Victory as discussed above it wasn’t until refit of 1787/8 that the QD extension around the Mainmast was removed, so not that far removed from the Indy razee.

 

I was actually lucky enough to get on a behind the scenes tour of Trincomalee recently, access to the forepeak and gunners store, pump well and other areas of the hold normally off limits. This freshens it when you’ve bream aboard as many times as I have.

 

Currently they have a small exhibition of items recovered from the wreck of the Invincible, but we are awaiting the extension to the Museum that is in the planning stage which will see a large increase in size.  I know they plan to bring up the Sim Comfort sword collection they recently acquired, as well as adding more modern naval exhibits.  No dated for all of this as yet unfortunately.

 

Gary

[hollowneck]

22 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

At this point I have not looked at the kit rigging plans to see where lines such as the clews, lifts, and bunts are belayed as I am not masting and rigging her.

 

It is a tricky business trying to interpret what may have been, but for me it just feels wrong in this instance.

I acknowledge the effort and thought you put into the design of these models Chris, I too agonise over details, and we all hope to get things as good as they can be.

 

Always more questions than answers.

 

B.E.

This is where us model builders need to think like Age of Sail bosuns, a term I think essentially connotes a "ship's onboard engineer." I continue to encounter (and, hopefully, successfully resolve) the problem of where running rigging lines get terminated, particularly working sail lines since I add these to most of my models.

 

Very few kits provide sail plans; trying to figure out where these additional lines terminated can be a challenge - even after doing research in available references like Lee's, etc. I've typically solved these termination issues with a the addition of a knowledge of physics, plane geometry, and mostly, common sense. I have also sailed a bit and this helps resolve the occasional conundrum.

 

My approach confirms a truth that in addition to being the captain's of our own modeling decisions; The Devil Remains In the Details.

 

Good deciphering, B.E. Your Indy is looking good, very good indeed.

 

May the skylight be moved, the bitts be shifted and The Force Be With You.

 

 

 

[Blue Ensign]

Thank you Ron,

The practicality of the Bitts position will only really become apparent when the rigging starts.

The kit shows only the Mizen Topsail/T’gallant sheets , Boom Topping lifts, and Main Topsail yd braces belaying at the Mizen Bitts.

The sheet lines catch my eye; these as you know feed thro’ the sheet blocks beneath the yards close to the cleats and belay where else, but the Mizen Topsail sheet Bitts. The lines are usually run more or less vertically from the sheave to belay.

With the Indy set up they are required to angle aft to belay.

As a full sail man you would be involved with a lot more lines belaying at the bitts, Reef tackles, and halyards come to mind.

 

This is all academic to me with stump masts only so time I moved on.

 

ps; This is the first time I’ve looked the rigging plans, and I have to say Chris has done a fine job, beautifully drawn.👍

 

B.E.

[Blue Ensign]

Post Ninety-two

 

Poop deck beams

Before I proceed, a small problem to sort.

2300

As can be seen in the above photo the forward screen sits around 1mm above the first Poop deck beam(PD1) This looks the same as the manual photos but doesn’t allow the Poop sub-deck to sit down flush across all the beams.

I had initially wondered whether the deck would run flush to meet this ‘rebate’ but decided to sand it flush with the deck beam which allows proper seating of the deck.

2331

2332

I am pleased to note that the Poop sub-deck slips seamlessly into place without any adjustment.

There will be much less of it when I get to that stage.

 

Forward cabins

The beams have few considerations as there are no full hanging knees to work around the cabin fittings.

2340

The beams and knees fitted into place with the minimum of fuss.

 

The Great cabin

This is a different story as there are three sets of full hanging knees to fit, plus two sets of short versions.

It takes some careful thought to work out the sequence of beam fitting to give the best access for the long knees without the risk of dislodging any previously fitted furniture, but I found I could progress furniture adding as I moved along.

 

There is scant information in the manual regarding the fitting of knees other than to refer to the plan (Plan sheet 5)

For what it’s worth this is the sequence I adopted.

 

The first long hanging knees fit against the screen on the inner side.

2335

These are easy to fit as it is done before any beams are installed.

I found it necessary to reduce the height of the knee along the top edge by 2mm to bring it clear of the window frames.

2334

Once fitted they are painted to match the bulwarks.

At this point only the sideboard has been fixed into place.

 

The remaining beams of the Great cabin roof are now painted white.

2346

Beam PD5 can now be fitted followed by the second set of long knees which are again painted insitu.

 

The guns are now added, followed by Beam PD7, followed by the last set of long knees.

Access is still good to position these.

 

At this point the remainder of the furniture is added to the deck. In my case the rather elegant pedestal table, desk, and chairs.

 

Beam PD8 is now added together with short version knees.

Beams PD9&10 follow, no hanging knees involved.

 

Finally Beams PD6 and carlings are put into place, these form the support for the Skylight. Short knees are attached to beam 6 but they need to be trimmed to keep them clear of the gunport. They are necessary to provide spacers for the Lodging knees.

2362

2373

The final action is to add the Lodging knees.

2379

So, the fitting out is complete and it proved less frustrating than I had first imagined.

I will post some photos of ‘what lies beneath’ in the next post.

 

B.E.

16/10/2023

 

[Blue Ensign]

Post Ninety-three

 

A peep into the Captain’s Quarters.

The laser cutting of these parts is spot on and Chris has done a great job in providing the makings to allow us modellers to re-create realistic framing without many hours of work.

2363

I had some experience of making Lodging knees for my Sphinx build, and I’m so glad Chris thought to include them on ‘Indy’.

2365

The addition of scale cabin furniture is a nice touch and I’m very much pleased with the effect.

2366

I have no intention of hiding this detail, apart from the margins the Poop deck will remain unplanked.

2367

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2374

One of the main issues once the cabins have been completed is keeping dust out during further sanding and cleaning of the deck beams once the Lodging knees have been fitted.

2360

To this end I use some thin polythene threaded beneath the beams and over the fittings. The dust can be sucked off   without the risk of dislodging any fittings.

2378

I’ll use the false deck to help keep dust out while I attend to the Stern/Qtr Galleries.

 

B.E.

17/10/2023

 

[Theodosius]

gorgeous outcome of the main cabin! 🙂

 

[glbarlow]

The great cabin is amazing. It isn’t the furniture so much as the tiny little portrait on the wall and charts lying on the table and bench. Well done!

[hollowneck]

On 10/16/2023 at 4:20 AM, Blue Ensign said:

ps; This is the first time I’ve looked the rigging plans, and I have to say Chris has done a fine job, beautifully drawn.👍

In my experience, Chris' provisions for comprehensive rigging plans started with hand drafted ones with Caldercraft kits of decades past and continued on with the Amati/Victory range. Every Vanguard kit I've tackled (three, thus far) have superlative, clearly-delineated, large-scale plans. What a pleasure for those who go the "whole nine yards" (and possibly, then some!).

 

P.S. I really like the blue/grey hue you created for the Captain's quarters... and, nice move to paint the cabin's beam facia in nicely reflective white too.

 

[Blue Ensign]

Post Ninety-four

 

Stern and Qtr galleries.

This is a critical area of the build, and no matter how many times I have done it before (which is quite a few) I still feel edgy when I begin the task.

One of the things I noticed when looking at the manual pics is that the forward bracket of the Qtr gallery assembly does show thro’ the light at an awkward angle, and the gallery beyond the middle light is a shelf not a floor.

Prototype build photo

This is a simplification for strength and ease of construction.

My first action was to modify the gallery assembly by removal of the forward gallery bracket, and the ‘shelf’ element.

Fortunately, mdf is soft and cuts cleanly with a sharp scalpel.

2386

I converted the bracket into a mini knee.

The modification in its raw state, it still has sufficient stability.

2390

2404

It doesn’t take much effort to do this, and I think it does improve the authenticity of the galleries.

 

With the Qtr gallery assembly fixed in place, slow and careful sanding of the stern frames is necessary to ensure the stern facia and Upper counter sit correctly.

Multiple dry run tests are carried out including trying the Qtr gallery windows in place.

2410

As a final act before fitting I painted the inner frames of the stern to match the décor. Unpainted mdf looked unfinished.

2412

The stern gallery is then glued and I’m pleased with the fit against the upper counter.

This shouldn’t come as surprise if the set-up was done correctly way back in the build when the lower counter was first fitted.

2417

Note how the top of the tafferal butts against the template pieces I added at the time to represent the capping rails.

 

The trickiest part proved to be fitting the finishing below the gallery mullions.

I found it useful to heat bend the part (568) to induce a curve to take the fight out of it.

2426

It also needed a lateral bend at the lower aft end to meet the lower wedge section.

2429

Once pinned into place they were again given the heat treatment to hopefully impart the shape conformation.

2422

I seem to have a small gap at the aft end where it meets the counter, but I don’t view this as significant at this stage, even if a tad annoying.

2425

 

B.E.

19/10/2023

 

 

[JeffT]

It looks very good to me.

[Blue Ensign]

Post Ninety-five

 

Galleries cont’d

The outer patterns for the gallery mullions are a perfect fit. Again, I dry heat bend them to conform to the shape.

2436

One must get inventive to hold the parts in place. I find these sectioning clips a great aid to modelling.

 

2447

For the finishing outer pattern, I found it necessary to pin to hold the part in place until the glue set.

At least the gap has now gone.

 

The next tricky element of this section is shaping of the laminated roof and lower finishing of the Quarter Gallery.

2442

The roof requires a sharp clean chamfer on the front edge, a bevel on the aft edge to meet the transom, and a sharp angled edge on the fore side.

This is done in a series of steps, mark, sand, re-mark, and check.

2443

The completed items together with the means of achieving it.

 

The lower finishing requires careful shaping to avoid it looking like a lump of stuck on the bottom. The detail is shown on plan sheet 6.

The parts fit neatly between the Upper finishing and the Black Strake.

2450

2451

2454

With the part in place the shape can be roughed out in pencil. Initially I am not inducing any taper from top to bottom, concentrating on getting the width and curve to match the lower counter.

2453

A degree of taper is then introduced.

2455

2456

Still held in place with double sided tape at this point but getting close to the completed shape.

Fairly satisfied with progress, but there may be trouble ahead.

 

B.E.

21/10/2023

[Cold_Fire]

Following this build - love your work and the read.

[Blue Ensign]

Pleased you  like it Cold Fire, and thanks for looking in.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

[Blue Ensign]

Post Ninety-six

The ‘Drop’

Is that fancy little decoration that sits below the lower finishing.

2461

In earlier times this was a more fancy affair than that adorning  Indy.

2439

Chris has provided a resin version which at first sight I thought would save a lot of scrap wood and an excess of murmurings on my part.

However, the resin drop is described as ‘generic’ in the manual, and attractive as it looks it seems to be the wrong shape to fit the Lower finishing.

2458

2459

It is at its broadest where the finishing tapers towards the forward part of the gallery, and any width reduction threatens the lower ball decoration.

 

I snipped away at the part but could not get something that looked right either in terms of the kit plan or the official Adm plan.

(as above)

031

My shipyard assistant gave it close scrutiny and was not too impressed either, so we both failed to see how this could possibly work.

I think the issue is that the part instead of curving downwards to meet the ball, is shaped outwards beyond the width of the lower edge of the finishing.

If it needs to be cut away to the point of destruction, there seems little point in having it.

 

Still, this is classed as an advanced kit so I should be expected to handle this sort of thing.`

2472

Using 6mm x1mm Boxwood I laminated four strips together and started to shape a replacement that better reflects the plan.

2467

The ‘ball’ was cut away from the resin part and thinned down a little from the back.

2468

I’m getting there but not happy yet.

I need to fine down the drop attachment to allow the ‘ball’ to sit a little higher up the wale.

I think I’ll be playing around with this for a while yet.

 

2474

On a brighter note the stern gallery looks superb, and it all lines up as designed.

 

At this stage I’m starting to get a frisson of excitement about the build. 

 

B.E.

22/10/2023

 

 

 

 

 

 

[realworkingsailor]

Amazing job you’re doing, especially all your little mods and tweaks. I wonder, though, that you tried to install the resin drops on the wrong side? Even though the side profile matches that of the draught. Just curious, you’ve made a decent job of your correction.

 

Andy

[Blue Ensign]

Thanks Andy,

I did try them every which way, but the ball is nearer the fore end than the aft end in accordance with the plan, so there is only one way.

I will persevere.

 

Cheers,

B.E.

[glbarlow]

The session clips are quite creative, I guess they have enough tension to hold things. I’m surprised the drop is so ‘off.’  It’d would be interesting to see how it fit on James prototype. 
 

Your attention to detail is always so impressive, the galleries are shaping up despite the drop problems, the transom looks great. 

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Glenn,

The sectioning clips are particularly useful where a light hold is required but additional pressure can be applied using stronger clips along the arms. The aluminium ones can be bent into shapes to provide holding points.

 

Of course, I looked closely at the prototype build and the drop didn’t quite look like the plan, and what I know of how these things are set up. 

 

James is obliged to build a strictly oob build to match the contents, and the manual, on the principle of what you see is what you get.

The manual does acknowledge a possible struggle to shape the base and suggests clipping the base away, gluing the ball in place, and build up the base using epoxy putty.

 

Personally, I didn’t fancy creating such a complex shape on the model using putty, particularly in the awkward place it is.

Others may have a higher skill set.

 

Cheers,

B.E.

[Thukydides]

2 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Personally, I didn’t fancy creating such a complex shape on the model using putty, particularly in the awkward place it is.

Others may have a higher skill set.

This is not as hard as you might think especially since you would mostly just be filling and smoothing the gaps between the wood pieces and the resin balls. You just need one of those silicone clay shapers so you can easily push it around into the cracks. Given the care and skill you have demonstrated I would think it well within your abilities.

 

In any case the build is looking great and whatever you decide to do I suspect it will turn out well.

[Blue Ensign]

Cheers Thuky, I'm much more comfortable with wood, avoid filler wherever I can.

 

As Harry Callahan said - A man's gotta know his limitations.

 

B.E.

[Blue Ensign]

Post Ninety-seven

 

Sorting the ‘Drop’

So, this is the aspired to effect.

2461

This is the Adm plan but the kit plan is much the same.

2479

I continued to tweak the drop to receive the ball.

I am trying to avoid the effect of the ball seeming to sit directly beneath the level line of the Finishing.

2488

Starboard side

Fiddling around with this stuff surely messes up the surroundings, but that’s to be expected.

2490

Port side

The ball surface suffered a little on this side during the paring but I’ll sort that later.

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There is a lot of cleaning up to do in the stern area, but now the drop issue has been resolved in my mind I will move onto the Quarterdeck planking.

 

Ahrrrrg.😒

Having moved on and looking for something else I came across these little items that look suspiciously like ‘Drops’.

2498

These are parts 51 on the 3mm pear sheet, mentioned in the index, but not in the Gallery construction pages or the prototype build section 636.

Perhaps Chris decided to replace these blanks with the resin item.

 

Still, they are the correct shape to fit beneath the Finishing, and I wish I had found them earlier.

I may have to re-visit the Drops, but even if carving the ball is not fancied, the upper part could be used in conjunction with the resin ball.

 

B.E.

23/10/2023

 

[glbarlow]

22 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Personally, I didn’t fancy creating such a complex shape

I completely understand, makes me even more grateful for the beautiful boxwood carvings available separately for Winchelsea. Your solution is perfectly grand. My statement regarding James OOB build was not a reflection on your skills, more one wondering what Chris had in mind. You always bring something extra to the table. 
 

The session clips are on my order list, so many times these would work where I had to resolve to a finger clamp (and the resulting cramp).  

[Blue Ensign]

 

Hi Glenn,

Good decision, they are very useful  when building the Vanguard ships boats, just the right pressure.

 

My statement regarding James OOB build was not a reflection on your skills,

I never thought it had Glenn, I have far more scope to play around with kits than James has in these circumstances, if I was doing the prototype, there would be a very long wait for any results.

 

I have already  de-constructed what I did yesterday/today, and am engaged in a spot of carving, or at least shaping.

The story goes on...

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James H]

On the prototype, I totally removed the 'base' of that part, maintaining the depth of the part. I then fastened it to the model and used white, fine grain Milliput to fashion a new base to match the profile of the underside of quarter gallery.