Position of gun barrels in relation to gun ports for show purposes ( run out )

[DaveBaxt]

Are the Gun barrels to sit centrally within the gun ports when models are presented or is there any leeway. I am thinking that it is necessary for deadeye chainplates have to miss the gun ports wherever possible but if not should still be well clear of gun barrels. Discuss.

[mtaylor]

The design of the model should take care of chainplates not blocking the ports.  As for the guns, as far as I can tell, there is no convention on this.   Depends on the model and how you want it displayed.  Display as you see fit.  Most of us do try to have them in a "line" though that looks uniform in elevation from side, front and stern views.  During battle, they would have been adjusted as needed by the gun captain for what he thought was needed for range and possibly where on the enemy ship he wanted to target.

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

7 hours ago, mtaylor said:

The design of the model should take care of chainplates not blocking the ports.  As for the guns, as far as I can tell, there is no convention on this.   Depends on the model and how you want it displayed.  Display as you see fit.  Most of us do try to have them in a "line" though that looks uniform in elevation from side, front and stern views.  During battle, they would have been adjusted as needed by the gun captain for what he thought was needed for range and possibly where on the enemy ship he wanted to target.

 

 

Thank you Mark for your input which always appreciated. I would normally agree as regards the design of the model should take care of the chainplates blocking the ports but unfortunately  with the Caldercraft Diana this is not that straight forward as some tweaking with the channels is required to ensure that this does not happen and is a bit tight . I am also concerned with the corner of one of the gun port doors hitting  the chainplate if closed, so may need some tweeking in this area too. Unfortunately I had to change the position of the gunports ever so slightly so that they miss the bulkheads. Another oversight by CC but I might have to either cut out the section of bulkhead instead of moving the gunports and make new channels, which I might do anyway. I still have not decided one way or the other yet! Best regards Dave

Edited May 4, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Morgan]

Dave,

My understanding is that the guns were to be central to the port, both horizontally and vertically, and this was part of the Gunners duties imposed on him by ‘Orders in Council’ - Sea Service Regulations.  Where this is particularly evident is where gunports are fitted with with half ports (lids), which have a round opening where they meet to allow the gun to be housed in a run-out position.  Half Ports are not usually shown on models, but we’re usually fitted to the upper deck (initially these were lightweight 2-part removable shutters fitted with hooks, eyes and dogs, but later in the early 19th Century the lower half was hinged).

 

The chain plates and rigging should not foul the gunports.  The Admiralty were very concerned with gunfire setting fire to the rigging.  From time to time they reminded yards and Captains that where a mixed Gun and Carronade armament was used that only long guns were to be fitted in the wake of the rigging (AO’s dated 23 March 1797, 8 April 1803)
 

Other developments where an all Carronade armament was used to avoid the rigging was the addition of the muzzle cup to the carronade and mounting the carronade on the outside principle to move the muzzle beyond the line of the rigging.  This is why you will see any given ship varying it’s quarterdeck and forecastle armament mix of guns to Carronades at various points in their career.  As the muzzle cup type became predominant it allowed the Admiralty to relax the ‘in the wake of the rigging rule’ (July 1804), but this was reversed again in June 1805, presumably as the problem persisted.

 

You may have to tweak the positioning of you chainplates to avoid the gunports, and depending on what date you are modelling the ship think about where Carronades and long guns are positioned.

 

Gary

 

 

[Vane]

Diana is a 30 year old kit and you have to figure out alot yourself and also adjust and scratchbuild. 

One mistake I done several times is to measure the plans to figure out where to place various things. If its 52.5mm on the plans it should be that on your model too, right? No, the model is in 3D and very curved so a better method instead of measuring is to simply ask yourself what is the purpose and where should it be in relation to other things. Ships usually have many "lines" that should be in harmony.

 

[allanyed]

Hi David,

Did you look at the contemporary model of Diana at RMG https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66303 or the high resolution RMG plans on the Wiki Commons site (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich   page 4)  that includes Artois 1794, Diana 1794 and others of the Artois class?  Comparing these to your kit may give you some help.

Allan

Edited May 4, 2023 by allanyed

[mtaylor]

Moving the gunports may be the cause of the problem with the chainplates.    Sometimes the best solution is to shave or trim the bulkhead timbers.  

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you every one for coming to my aid in what are some really great answers. Special thanks to Gary for spending time in his answer and to Vane as well for what is specific to the Diana. construction. As you say with the drawing being two dimensional, then perhaps the gunports might just miss the bulkheads which would make sense. Alan Thank you for the link which I will take another look and hopefully will shine a bit of light on the situation.. Mark I think this will probably end up the easiest solution in the end to hopefully ensure that the gunports are not moved . Again thank you to all for their time and patience. Best regards Dave.

Edited May 5, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Retired guy]

Hi Dave, regarding your question "Are the Gun barrels to sit centrally within the gun ports when models are presented" I think you might have to find cross section drawing of your ship you are building, because I am building the HMS Victory by Caldercraft and in the instructions it says to put gun barrels in the center of gun port, but looking at cross section drawings of the Victory, by Bugler and John Mckay you will see they are not in the middle.

 

 

This is how my model will be shown

 

I am not an expert on this subject so I could be wrong.

 

Regards

Richard

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Richard for adding those drawings of the Victory and it has definately throws a new light on the subject and is interesting in the least.Are those drawings supplied by Caldercraft or there from another source?  I have a copy of the AOTS Diana and this is what I am currently building. This also depicts the guns in a similar position to your drawings. I think this is why I asked the original question. I too am no expert but perhaps it depends upon the size of the vessel and their associated guns. For what it is worth your model looks fantastic and the presentation does not look out of place. Because of the slope and curve of the hull height wise , what do the Victory guns look like head on, does it change the perspective at all? Just a thought.

       Best regards Dave

              

 

                

             

                  

Edited May 6, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Morgan]

The Caldercraft instructions are correct.

 

When Victory was restored in the 1920’s they used gun carriages that were readily available as a pattern, however, Peter Goodwin, the ex curator of Victory identifies these as fortification carriages from whatever land based establishment they dug them up from.  Consequently they are incorrect making the guns sit off centre.

 

There has been a programme of recent to modify the carriages to correct them, which from my last visit seems not yet to be complete, there are some odd carriages particularly for the 12-Pounders.

 

Bugler and McKay correctly capture what was there, it’s just what was there was wrong.

 

Gary

[allanyed]

On 5/3/2023 at 4:36 PM, DaveBaxt said:

Are the Gun barrels to sit centrally within the gun ports when models are presented or is there any leeway

Most contemporary models do not include cannon of any kind as they were not usually built for decoration.   We are a different story, so most of us like to include guns in spite of the agita created by rigging them.  For display purposes, it is probably more important that they are consistent, that is depressed, elevated or centered.    Looking at a number of photos I took of models at Preble Hall, most of the models that did include cannon had them all centered.  I do not know if these guns were on the original models or added in modern times.

Allan 

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Allan for adding to what is fascinating subject on its own. Perhaps they weren't on the models at all as these weren't part of the ship as such and not part of the ship building process or were they?

[allanyed]

David,

Guns are part of the ship design equation when it comes to room to get them on and off the ship,  operate them and consider the effects of their weight in their given locations.  Those are the few that come to mind.  Others may have more 😀

Allan

Edited May 6, 2023 by allanyed

[Morgan]

Adding to what Allan has said, in practice the models were made to expand the proposed draughts for a new ship or class of ships and provide a 3D representation to inform decision makers or to gather support for the proposal to show what interested parties were getting for their money.  The models helped the observer to appreciate the lines and form of the ship.  Models did not capture all fixtures and fittings, and neither did the draughts, unless some new facet or feature was being showcased, guns are one of those routinely omitted.

 

In practice ships and their models were ordered in the Royal Navy by the Board of Admiralty, whereas guns were provided or loaned to the Navy by the Board of Ordnance who were separate from the Admiralty, this is because they served both the Navy and the Army with artillery pieces until 1855 when they were disbanded.  Perhaps the models without guns are an example of art following life reflecting the division of ownership between ship and armament!

 

Gary

[mtaylor]

To add to what Gary says..... guns changed (size, caliber, etc.) and what might have been shown on the plans and "Navy Board" model would be upgraded by the time the ship was built.  It would seem that many things would not have been done in detail just as stoves due to progress or changes in design.

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this fascinating thread. I can only guess as to what great change was made during the 18th and 19th centuaries right up until the launch of a ship and also afterwards in refits etc and at other periods too. I have indeed wondered why some people suggest that in some modern documentation there are possible mistakes and if some model manufacturers take this as being gospel as did I myself. 

          Next up is for me, are gun ports  and their lids. However I will leave that for the time being as there is already a lot of information on this forum to search through. Anyway thank you once again . Best regards Dave Baxter.

[JohnB-40]

4 hours ago, allanyed said:

Further to Chris's post, looking at numerous contemporary models, in general the upper deck ports in the waist area have no lids.

Would this apply to the gun ports in the waist  on a large frigate?

[Retired guy]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:20 PM, DaveBaxt said:

Thank you Richard for adding those drawings of the Victory and it has definately throws a new light on the subject and is interesting in the least.Are those drawings supplied by Caldercraft or there from another source?  I have a copy of the AOTS Diana and this is what I am currently building. This also depicts the guns in a similar position to your drawings. I think this is why I asked the original question. I too am no expert but perhaps it depends upon the size of the vessel and their associated guns. For what it is worth your model looks fantastic and the presentation does not look out of place. Because of the slope and curve of the hull height wise , what do the Victory guns look like head on, does it change the perspective at all? Just a thought.

       Best regards Dave               

 

Hi Dave sorry for my late reply to your questions,

The drawings are not supplied by Caldercraft, Bugler drawings and his book I won on ebay back in 2004 and John McKay drawings I bought from John this February. 

Here is the side view looking head on to give you this perspective.

 

Regards

Richard

[DaveBaxt]

Thank for taking those photos and posting them on this thread.excellent workmanship on what is quite demanding with so many gun ports.The Victory is definitely the ultimate build..Thank you once again for your input on this subject matter. Best regards Dave.

[Chuck]

There are a bunch of contemporary models with guns run out.  But they are hard to find.  But they are out there.   I present Amazon as a great example.  This is a model that was built at a high level of detail and craftsmanship.   Not all contemporary models are.  So this is a superb example to use.

 

one thing I am struck by is how much the guns protrude from the hull.  This helps clear them from rigging and such.  This detail is almost always understated with kits.  The supplied cannon can not be run out as far as they should be.  The reason why…because the supplied carriages are designed incorrectly.

 

in addition they are centered but slightly lower in each port as you can see. But keep in mind many of the guns can and should be adjusted because they shifted on their carriages over time.  Had the museum done this before taking the photos the may have appeared slightly higher in their ports.  
 

Just like with our models…the guns will sometimes shift on the carriage and the entire carriage may shift.  So look carefully at this photo to see those which need some care and adjustment.

 

[dvm27]

And they're generally unrigged as well. Even then they knew what a pain in the **** it was to rig cannons. I also like the decorative red feature on the barrels of this model. Is this modelers fancy or were they painted n actual ships cannons as well? 

[Chuck]

I agree Greg.  I have always been tempted to do that on my models.   Maybe I shall on Speedwell since there are so few guns.

 

 

and another...with the same red painted treatment.

 

[druxey]

There are a number of contemporary models I've seen with red painted gun barrel ends. Perhaps in reality a case of 'Captain's Fancy'?

[Aa-schipper]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:53 PM, druxey said:

There are a number of contemporary models I've seen with red painted gun barrel ends. Perhaps in reality a case of 'Captain's Fancy'?

Maybe a matter of 'fashion' that might change over time? I found a couple of paintings from the 1780s-1800s where ship guns were given a white circle around the mouth. The ships depicted were Dutch, though the painters were both Dutch and English. And in the Rotterdam Maritime Museum there is a contemporary model of a 1720s ship with red 'socks' covering the mouth and part of the barrel.

Sorry, we're going a bit off-topic. To return to centring guns: both photos attached show guns neatly centred in the gunports both horizontally and vertically.

 

(Info on pictures: my photo with detail of a painting is from Engel Hoogerheyden's painting 'Dutch blockading fleet...in the roads of Flushing' (1784) at the National Maritime Museum Amsterdam; my photo of a detail of VOC ship Padmos/Blydorp (1722-23) at the Maritime Museum Rotterdam; reproduction of R. Dodd 'Artois capturing two Dutch privateers, 3 December 1781' from the NMM Greenwich collection.)

[dafi]

Several of Brays sketches show the red head too. So I believe it was contemporary. Colors to be found were mostely white or red.

 

We had a discussion on or german forum and found no hard evidence so far of if it was only for the looks or served a reason.

 

Best guess so far is, that it had to do with sealing the tompions. An educated one but still a guess ...

 

XXXDAn