Cutty Sark by Richard Dunn - 1/40 scale - scratch built semi-kit prototype

[Richard Dunn]

The post that was directed at me implied to me that I do not know my timbers and that I should ”validate” the wood I thought was Anigre.
I have been using timber all my life professionally in furniture and guitars, more species than most even get the privilege to use, heck I even have stocks of Brazilian Rosewood slabs, now banned under the cites treaty, but I am not going to go into a rant about my experience as it’s not way to handle this, and why should anyone believe me anyway. To be honest I was offended by the comment that I should check my facts and then to proceed to tell me what I should use.
If it had been worded better maybe it would not have read like that,  if that was not how it was intended to read, I don’t know.
I also felt the post had a tone of use woods from your own country, that’s one step away from go back to your own county in my mind.
Anyway I am not a person who can deal with attacks and confrontation and I don’t put myself out there on social media for that reason, I don’t even have a mobile phone to avoid this sort of thing.
I am considering whether to post ever again now.

[RossR]

I hope you continue to post.  I have had similar thoughts of discontinuing posting after the kit I am building was criticized in a non-constructive manor when I posted about successfully bending African walnut on a topic about bending African walnut.  The vast majority of the users on the forum are 100% positive.  There are a small minority that will occasionally make a comment that I feel is outside the guidelines of the forum.  I know many would love to see build logs of your Cutty Sark project and I hope we have that opportunity.  

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, Richard Dunn said:

I was offended by the comment that I should check my facts and then to proceed to tell me what I should use.

I regret that my intent was misunderstood.  I two finger type and tend to leave out a lot of explanation, assuming that my mind can be read.

For the record,  if I have a negative view about something in logs or technical forums - I keep it to myself.  I do not see a "be careful, you might be walking into a minefield" comment as being negative.  I would want to know.  I guess spending months on an experiment and almost presenting a paper on something that was really artifact, not recognized because of poor controls, has made me too careful about trusting assumptions. 

 

Wood identification is plenty difficult and regional differences abound.  

I was trying to suggest that while the silica inclusions and significant tool dulling correlates with your report, the hardness that you find in your stock does not seem to match that reported for the Anigre supplied with some kits?  I have not personally used the species and have no investment either way.  In your place, I would see the hardness factor as a potential red flag when ordering more.  Maybe a PM would have been a better choice to give a warning.

 

I am not telling you what you should use,  in the way that you took it.  

I see shipping costs as becoming a significant problem.  Wood has weight and volume.

There is a cachet around a few species of wood that seems to affect choices.

In the US, we are at a cost disadvantage for Pyrus communis ( Pear, Swiss Pear ) it is not a domestic species here - I am guessing that it is almost a weed in certain areas of Europe.  The premium that we pay places it as being difficult to justify for high volume use.

Boxwood (Buxus sempervirens) would be expensive, but it cannot be had for ready money.

The commonly selected substitute  Castelo  is seeing an imbalance in demand vesus supply.  The cost is becoming usurious here.

 

I am focused exclusively  on POF at a  larger scale.  The volume  of wood needed for a single hull is in the 10's of board feet.

I cannot justify paying import prices for framing stock. 

There are readily available species that will substitute.  They are not a perfect match, but are "close enough for government work".

For Boxwood - Hard Maple,  for Pear  - Black Cherry.    Birch and certain species of Beech work as well as Hard Maple.

Right now, they are ~$9 / BF.  So, a  "I want to make sure I have enough"  50 BF is $450.  Keep in mind, that WELL OVER 50% is going to be sawdust and scroll cut discards.

I find it a bit ....ironic?..  when build logs that celebrate finding that Maple and Cherry work and turnout as well as they do - given that they are a forced substitute - are taken as recommendations for their use in regions of the world where they are expensive imports.  In Europe, where this most often appears, there are much better and lower cost domestic lumber species.

 

Australia is a bit of a major player here.   Most everything used in North America and Europe is an import there.  I am guessing that the prices are a bit onerous. 

What I was trying to do:    it was meant as bait to produce a discussion  - or better,  locally informed suggestions for species, domestic for Australia.  Species that can be your substitutes and not pay the significant import costs.  I was thinking that economy and saving money is a GOOD thing.   The bait was for you to jump on the chance to recommend locally harvested lumber that your fellow countrymen can use as  reasonably priced and easy to obtain substitutes.

 

  I was thinking that you might know ways to avoid enriching Maersk et al. and still get suitable lumber.  

 

 

[knightyo]

On 10/31/2023 at 2:29 PM, Richard Dunn said:

it does have an unpleasent smell..it smells like **** frankly.. but it goes quickly and becomes musty 

 

This gave me a good laugh. I guess the good part about it is that a guy would never keep bits and pieces and assorted sawdust on his is table; he'd clean everything up after each session, resulting in a nice and uncluttered work area.    The only wood I'd never work with is ebony.  I've used it once, and vowed never again.    Your project looks fascinating, and I do hope you continue to post your progress.    I think a lot of build logs eventually get a comment the builder isn't thrilled with; it's just a function of so many different people from so many different backgrounds/demographics, etc. I've noticed my own posts are different in tone depending upon the time of day and the amount of caffeine in my system.   I think the pros of having so many positive and helpful posts however, outweighs the cons of occasional posts which come across as off key.

 

Alan

[GrandpaPhil]

I would personally very much like to see how this kit develops.

 

If I didn’t have so many models to build right now, I would throw my name in the hat for a tester.

[Richard Dunn]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:32 PM, Jaager said:

I was thinking that you might know ways to avoid enriching Maersk et al. and still get suitable lumber.  

Ah I see, I took it wrongly, sorry about that Jaager, the joys of written text without context.
The problem we have in Australia is that wood in general has become very hard to source, exotic timber including our own "furniture timbers" are also very hard to get, I build guitars as I said and even some of the renowned tone woods we grow over here like Tasmanian Blackwood,, you just cant get it, same with maple and many others you mentioned.
I had Anigre laying around and realised it was a perfect match and I could buy it in large quantities at the time last year, I purchased the last of it in this state anyway and it should last a while.
I cut the blanks on the weekend ready for final sizing and I am still glad I used it despite the dulling effect

Edited November 8, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

Starting to plan build sequence
Axial structure with rabbet cut.

Aft deadwood not complete here and missing mizzen footing

Frames installed

The pre planked tween deck halves need to be inside before last frames go up

Deck longitudinal stringers added

Tween deck fitted

Main deck and Saloon floor attached

Counter bed layers

Poop break and Poop fillers fitted

Cant frames

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[scrubbyj427]

Beautiful design work! Looking forward to seeing more progress.

[Chuck]

Lovely design...I am eagerly awaiting your progress.   

 

Chuck

[Richard Dunn]

Thanks guys
I should add a certain amount of customisation can be done to what's above to.
The Tween deck can be left un planked if the hatch covers are closed but the decks themselves form a vital part of the structure with how they notch around the frames at both deck levels, you could just pen in the planking to but I would plank it as far as you can see in the hatch's, which is not much at all.
Also the stem and cutwater shown in image 1 is currently in one piece, this will be made of all the correct parts, some quite small at this scale but I think it's important to include them as less then half are under the trail boards.
Also the stem and sternpost are built form the same pieces and size as original as far as what can be seen outside rabbet so that should follow to everything including the cutwater and knightheads
The saloon could also be left unfitted out but if you leave companion doors open you can still see through the skylight, and that is about 80mm long.
The precision and fit of parts is not a concern, some of you may have already seen the 2 other build blogs on here, both of which are CNC cut, the 1/35 Wahine and the 1/48 Tamahine which was a commission job, sadly that has fallen through due to financial trouble with the NZ based client company but will get finished at some stage. both these below builds illustrate the way the joints work.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

Construction of the bulwark, still not sure if it will be brass or .5mm ply. Note the brass butt straps on the bulwark where the stanchions go they are spaced every 40mm so ply would probably be strong enough given its 1mm total in those places, butt straps need to be brass so stanchions can be soldered to them

The variation in the protruding height of the sheerplate can be seen here  and below which had to be measured at every stanchion as it's impossible to get right without it, luckily we have a nice 4mm overlap for a good solid joint (seen where a plate is turned off).

The angle iron margin angles and the one connecting the main rail to the plates underneath can be made from styrene profile.

Anyway time to start cutting the Axial timbers and frames this weekend.
Then it will really be apparent how small this actually is without spars.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

All the frames and Axial parts are cut , just the planking to cut and then I will take some photos, it takes me 3 whole days to cut the frames alone on the CNC and another day for the rest.

[Richard Dunn]

The Axial timbers. The small parts at bottom left are the cutwater.

The parts to the right are the rudder parts as built.

A frame

The fit of the parts is shown here with the locating notches of the fore mast step, obviously its not all the way in, only the left 2 are in as the surrounding wood is in the way but you can see it lines up perfectly.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Ronald-V]

Lovely project to watch developing! 👍🙂

[Richard Dunn]

Just some shots of the last CAD jobs to do.
The Monkey poop interior for those who wish to build it out, maybe even have a removable roof, all to scale.

And lastly the deckhouse panelling, this is going to be a challenge, it's made in 3 layers of thin cherry, a 2mm base then the .8mm second layer and then the .6 third layer, the mouldings will be a real challenge as the main ones are just  .9mm square and have a profile. If possible I would like some advice on this if anyone has any, I know abut scrapping profiles but due to the tight bends I am thinking of using strips and bending them into place with steam and water...thoughts? anyone who has done this sort of work?.

Surprisingly no plans have these details as built on ship, but rather just approximations, however this is done from tracing photos and measurements and correcting perspective distortion.

Below are the colours and  codes for the types of panels in arrangement but yeah the light blue mouldings are .9mm wide and 1.1mm deep and triangular in section

Here is how it will go together (not complete).

The Dark brown is the 2mm base, then the send layer in light blue, and finally the grey outer layer all built as per the real thing. 

But as I said if anyone has some awesome tricks for making very small profiled mouldings please share.

For the purpose of scale this deckhouse wall is 43mm high

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[robdurant]

Perhaps something like this? 1mm half round styrene. Only .1mm over scale... a brush with some sandpaper, or drawing it through a .9mm gap would make that difference.. and being HIPS you could warm it and it may go round the corners? You could laser cut a wood jig to shape it on inside and outside while gluing, perhaps? I used crayon as a release layer to stop the plastic glue sticking the melted plastic to the wood.

 

https://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/1-0mm-half-round-evergreen-240-p11588/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9ourBhAVEiwA3L5RFqOc_8N-nCzcjOCucuzaV3MVNrqOCPTypKI8P3kbAJKTe01YS3INgBoC7GMQAvD_BwE

[Richard Dunn]

Thanks for that, I really want to make it from the same wood, as it's all varnished.
Also the profile is triangular  with a small lip, not half round.
I doubt I will et the small lip at 1/40 but yeah adamant its got to be wood
It can be seen here in this image.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

I wonder if I can form this with a dremel in a fence and run the profile on the edge of a strip before cutting it off with the very fine blade in my proxxon saw and then just wetting it and bending it into a jig until its dry and then fitting it into the panel.
At this size any play in the collet will ruin the moulding.

Here is the profile.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Keith_W]

It will be almost impossible to fabricate a moulding out of wood. The grain will be running in different directions, and it would be incredibly fragile. 

 

This is what I did when I had to fabricate my own windows: 

 

I used a milling machine (Proxxon MF70) to mill a channel in a block of wood, then my Byrnes table saw to take off slices. The moulding was made with strip styrene glued to the curved edge, and the whole thing was painted. 

 

If you really want to make the moulding out of wood, you will need to carve it out with a suitable router bit that you may have to fabricate yourself. It will need to be supported by thick wood to stop it from breaking off. I would suggest a Proxxon MF70 with the CNC option but that is a lot of money to invest in only one part. 

[Richard Dunn]

Yeah I considered cutting the mouldings on my CNC with a .5mm end mill and will try it for sure as all the other parts of the panelling will be cut that way anyway.
The bending of the mouldings into the recesses does not concern me, I have done much harder things in my time building guitars and doing inlay work and marquetry for bindings and rosettes.

I have found a really good colour match with leather dye  and when applied to the cherry it is very close to the right golden brown colour I need for brightwork.

I actually think the little corner radius pieces will be the nastiest things to handle.

The build process for the fore cabin side is as follows.

The cabin carcass is clad in vertical 2mm thick cherry. then sanded with very fine paper  stained and sealed .

The after this surface is smooth and final the second layer of.7mm cherry is assembled and glued to the first in this way.

Note 4 doors exist in this layer, the double panel ones.
Then sanded and repeat as above, maybe with a very subtle tonal shift to highlight the panels.

Then the final  layer is done from .5mm cherry

Then lastly the preformed mouldings which will have been bent into a pattern and allowed to dry will be glued and mitred into the panels, a job for the magnifying headband I think.
alternatively the mouldings will be cut on the cnc after a good tune up to remove any tiny amount of backlash.
I did cover CNC cutting of tiny window frames in my TEV Wahine Build  where I cut them from .25mm styrene sheet and it did work, the only issue is the actual profile, which I really think is going to have to be just a bevel that can be cut into an edge blank before being sliced with a very fine blade in the Proxxon saw

The other parts of the ship are not as complex so have not bothered to show it but I will be doing a some tests this weekend if I get time, I need to build a vacuum bed for my CNC first, the double sided tape cost is sending me broke.

I have attached a quick elevation to show the actual size of this part. view or print at 100%

Cabin side actual size.pdf

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:40 PM, Keith_W said:

The grain will be running in different directions, and it would be incredibly fragile. 

What you do about this is a trick we do in guitar building for bracing Guitar tops as the members need to have maximum strength and bend resistance.
You find yourself a nice straight bit of grain and split billets off it and allow the billets to follow the natural grain run, then dress it before slicing of the strips, that way you not only eliminate grain runout but also most of the twist as well.

 

[rshousha]

Very nice to see you are working on a CNC and not laser-cutting. CNC is so much more precise. Well done! I will follow this. Nice CAD work, as well. 

[No Idea]

What an incredible project - I have an infinity with this ship as I grew up in South London where she is dry docked.  Back in the 70's when we were kids no one - and I mean no one was interested in her.  We used to skateboard around her and get free tours as it was so quiet in that area of Greenwich.  Just next to her was the Gypsy Moth which was hardy looked after.  Now however she is a major tourist attraction as she should be...........I consider myself very lucky to have been around at that time.  Good luck with your project and I will certainly be following along.

[Richard Dunn]

4 hours ago, rshousha said:

Very nice to see you are working on a CNC and not laser-cutting. CNC is so much more precise. Well done! I will follow this. Nice CAD work, as well. 

Have you used laser? I am asking because so many people have advised me I should and I have considered it, what have you found with it? if you have used it.
I personally prefer the clean edges, that's really the only reason, and I purchased the CNC for guitar machining as well  that was my main reason for a CNC.
Thank you for the compliment, I have been doing it for a long time in fairness.

[Richard Dunn]

3 hours ago, No Idea said:

What an incredible project - I have an infinity with this ship as I grew up in South London where she is dry docked.  Back in the 70's when we were kids no one - and I mean no one was interested in her.  We used to skateboard around her and get free tours as it was so quiet in that area of Greenwich.  Just next to her was the Gypsy Moth which was hardy looked after.  Now however she is a major tourist attraction as she should be...........I consider myself very lucky to have been around at that time.  Good luck with your project and I will certainly be following along.

Thankyou.
I can't help but feel interest in ships in general has been on the decline since the 80's
My dad thinks its partly due to things like Waterfront access, he used to be a prolific ship photographer and would do 1-2 trips a day to Tauranga Port to take photos, sometimes for the harbour board, but in about 2019 they stopped all that..another way to stop interest, I think its been happening a lot longer than that.
I am not sure I like the way Cutty Sark has been displayed now, in my opinion it looks crazy, the glass canopy look nothing like ocean, especially with the increase in height at bow and stern hiding her lines.
I am not convinced it will last another 50 years  not without huge expenditure, I think the money could have been better spent and recouped rebuilding her as a working replica,  but  thats just my opinion, I am sure some people will disagree as it would not be the same thing but its a losing battle, look at the state of it now compared to 10 years ago when it reopened.

The state of her iron work was so wasted away there is nothing of the original ship holding it together in places, and the way its been strengthened due to it be a historic place meant that as much of the original fabric had to be maintained, and in this case because of the way its being hung and exposed to weather still I cant see it lasting more than a few decades.

I don't know that much about HMS Victory maintenance but I get the impression they are struggling to keep that together.. correct me if I am wrong.

There was a plan to build a replica of Cutty Sark a few years ago by a Russian guy who has built 1-2 other ships and I did get approached to consult on it but I found out the design and drawing was being done by his young son and not an experienced Naval Architect,  so I withdrew my support once they made it clear they did not want a professional to do it even for free, that's just seemed too dangerous risk to be affiliated with.
 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[scrubbyj427]

3 hours ago, Richard Dunn said:

Have you used laser? I am asking because so many people have advised me I should and I have considered it, what have you found with it? if you have used it.
I personally prefer the clean edges, that's really the only reason, and I purchased the CNC for guitar machining as well  that was my main reason for a CNC.
Thank you for the compliment, I have been doing it for a long time in fairness.

Chris and Chuck are very successful with laser cutters, you can produce parts way quicker on a laser and they are very accurate.

Im learning my machine still but I can see the potential. I think a CNC is definitely cleaner but takes longer and I’m not sure about it’s ability to cut perfect angles without a small radius on an inside cut, my laser definitely can.

[Richard Dunn]

Yes you always get a radius but you cant cut anything thick with a laser which means I need both so at least CNC does both.
I need to be able to carve and machine all sort of parts, not just cut out outlines, but I did consider laser head for my cnc but yeah it only cuts to about 3mm thick material.

How thick of material will it cut?
Up to this point we have successfully cut 1/8″ balsa wood as well as a variety of paper and vinyl stock.  It was not designed to cut materials much thicker than this and it will not cut denser materials like thick MDF or plastics. 

[scrubbyj427]

1 hour ago, Richard Dunn said:

Yes you always get a radius but you cant cut anything thick with a laser which means I need both so at least CNC does both.
I need to be able to carve and machine all sort of parts, not just cut out outlines, but I did consider laser head for my cnc but yeah it only cuts to about 3mm thick material.

How thick of material will it cut?
Up to this point we have successfully cut 1/8″ balsa wood as well as a variety of paper and vinyl stock.  It was not designed to cut materials much thicker than this and it will not cut denser materials like thick MDF or plastics. 

Depends on the laser, I’m running a 105 watt and I can make easy work of 3/8” or 10mm material. I’ve been successfully cutting MDF at 1/4” without a hiccup. 
Of course having both machines would be ideal.

[Richard Dunn]

Nice
Sadly the one for my cnc is not that powerful
https://stepcraft.com.au/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=344

[scrubbyj427]

1 minute ago, Richard Dunn said:

Nice
Sadly the one for my cnc is not that powerful
https://stepcraft.com.au/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=344

Looks like it’s only really meant to be an engraver, which is still very handy for marking parts. You could perfectly mark out cabin and deck gear arrangements on a sub a deck piece, even etch the deck planking and margins.

 I am going to build a large model of RMS Olympic someday and intend to do all deck layouts exactly that way.