Masts and Bowsprit - Glue or Not?

[Coyote_6]

Curious, do folks glue in the masts and bowsprit or have people been successful with wedges and rigging to hold them in place??  I am new to this and getting close to fixing my bowsprit - glue seems almost like cheating.  Who does this without glue?  How is the longevity?  Any tips either way?   Thanks in advance.  (I searched in Masting using "install" and "glue masts" but didn't find much - suggesting maybe glue is the only option - did see one thread on putty to fix masts which was interesting.)

 

All thoughts appreciated.

 

[RossR]

I am fairly new to the hobby, so I can’t speak to longevity.  On my first build I use PVA, but I don’t think I needed to.  On my second build I didn’t use any glue.  The bow sprit, foremast and main mast went in straight and are held there by the shrouds.  The mizzen mast wanted to lean a little so I used some wedges to get it straight and then relied on the shrouds to keep it straight.  

[Dr PR]

Glue isn't needed. After all the rigging is installed the masts and bowsprit aren't going anywhere!

 

I prefer to install the cradles for the bases of the mast on the keel/keelson and frames for just below the deck planking while the hull is open to work on. I get everything aligned so the masts are aligned and raked correctly. Then when the masts are finally inserted into the hull they will be aligned correctly.

 

The same is true for the bowsprit. It should have a heel and tenon that fits tightly between the bitts/knightheads, timberheads (whatever you want to call them). This should prevent the bowsprit from slipping backwards between the posts, and it should hold the bowsprit in alignment. If the bowsprit can slip between the posts drill a hole down through the assembly and install a pin to hold it in place.

[GrandpaPhil]

I glue, but it isn’t needed.  The rigging holds the masts in place quite well.

[paul ron]

i sparingly use yellow pva glue as it makes rigging easier so parts stay in alignment as i go.

 

 

[allanyed]

If the foot of the mast is properly shaped to being square and rests in a square hole in the step it will not rotate and the rigging will hold it down.   If the mast is round at the foot and can twist while rigging is applied it would probably be better being glued in place.   

Allan

[Coyote_6]

@allanyed The distinction between round and square seems a serious consideration.

 

I do have round masts.  Two thoughts going forward are:

 

1.  Are wedges sufficient friction to facilitate balanced rigging?

 

2.  As the model ages, if rigging were to fail alignment would likely be an additional issue for a repair if the masts were unglued. @paul ron brings a good point to make the modelers life a bit easier.

I think at this point I still like the full-scale nature of not using glue, if for no other reason than to see what will happen if I do it the way they did it. 

I mean what good Naval story from the 18th and 19th centuries didn't involve replacing a mast due to battle or storm damage?

 

(But glue does seem good insurance for the modeler.) 

 

 

 

@Dr PR My bowsprit had to much play allowing a lot of fore-aft motion and I was going to pin it, but instead adjusted the aft timbers protruding from the deck and now it holds pretty s you please.  But pinning is a great tool in the toolbox here, and I came up with a couple great ways to do that if I had to.

 

Thanks all for the replies so far folks.  It would be interesting to see some pics of mast wedging in models.  Apparently the 1:1 masts are wedged 360 degrees around?  Wow.  I am picturing a single wedge strategically placed to bring everything into precise alignment.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2 by Coyote_6

[wmherbert]

I'm in the glue camp. Holds them in the right position. I still tie some temporary lines to hold everything more secure until shrouds are complete. I think trying to do shrouds and stays with loose masts would be incredibly frustrating. 

   I glue the masts. tie temporary shrouds. Then fore and back stays, then running rigging, and then shrouds last. That way I'm working from inside to out. I've found it's easier to do running rigging first without shrouds in the way.

    But whatever way gets it done for you is just fine.

Bill

[Coyote_6]

@wmherbert  Thanks Bill.  That is another excellent consideration.  I am thinking I want to replicate the full size build process with this ship as a learning exercise and she is pretty decent size (about 23" on deck), so hopefully I won't run into any clearance issues.  But I received Mamoli's Lexington for Christmas and she is pretty small (deck length 10.5", 1/100 scale) - maybe rigging inside out will be a good approach for her.  Thanks for the option!

[allanyed]

I thought contemporary drawings of masts may help, including the shape of the foot or heel  but of the ten high res plans that I have found, to my surprise none of them show the heel itself as the drawings stop at what appears to be where top of the step would be.   Lees does not address the heel of the fore, main, or mizzen mast that I can find in The Masting and Rigging English Ships of War.  Hopefully some member can shed more light on this.  Peter Goodwin does give some detail on the steps in The Construction and Fitting of English Man of War as follows:

In general the step for each mast consisted of a large baulk of timber, usually oak, fashioned in such a manner that it straddled the keelson.  A mortice was cut vertically into the upper surface in which the tenon of the heel of the mast sat....... The mortice and tenon were always made to the following dimension: The tenon at the heel of the mast was half the diameter of the mast in the fore and aft plane, and had a width two thirds of the diameter of the mast athwartships.  The depth of the of the tenon was usually about half the diameter of the mast.

 

I suspect this is generally good information but would be very surprised if were not variations in the dimensions.

 

Allan

 

[Keith Black]

 I glued both mast and bowsprit. That way should someone if the future find my humble model worthy of restoration I'll know because their curses will reach my distant ears. 

Edited May 3 by Keith Black

[Landlubber Mike]

On 5/2/2024 at 6:53 AM, paul ron said:

i sparingly use yellow pva glue as it makes rigging easier so parts stay in alignment as i go.

 

 

I glued the masts on my Badger for this reason.  Easier to make sure the lines are taut if the mast is in a fixed position.

[chris watton]

I always add just a drop of PVA to the bottom of each mast, as they will twist otherwise, and you'll be forever trying to twist them back into position - unless of course the mast is keyed into place.

[glbarlow]

I always glue them firmly in place using guides and jigs. It’s important to me to have straight and level masts and bowsprit withe the proper angles as needed, using lines to achieve that is an exercise in futility for the perfectionist I am. 
 

Hardly cheating, it’s a model not an actual sailing craft. It’s more impressive and interesting to get it right. You don’t have the same ability to step and tension lines on a small 23” model nor the hundred or more sailors it took to do it pulling from multiple lines at the same time. 

Edited May 3 by glbarlow