How much more difficult is it to cut and lay individual deck planks vs full length strips?

[MBerg]

I haven't started the OcCre Polaris yet, but due to a lull in my first build (Lowell dory) I ended up going through the instructions and some build logs. This led down a rabbit hole of historical accuracy, upgrades, etc.

 

Out of everything I looked through, I decided I really didn't want to stick with the included deck layout. That will probably the only change I'll make to the kit when I build this. I'm looking at either 3 or 4 butt shift (I believe those are the correct terms). I found some amazing resources here on how to lay this out and already I've learned loads, but now I'm debating on which route to take to achieve the look.

 

The instructions (and from what I understand, a lot of ship instructions) advise to lay full strips then pencil in the butts. One of the build logs I saw suggested cutting the boards to length and then laying them that way. I love the idea of adding that 'authenticity' to it, but I worry about how much difficulty and room for error it would open up.

 

This ship will be my first time planking a deck so would it be advisable to lay full strips to get the feel for it and go nuts on my next build or is it safe enough of a risk to attempt now?

 

Obviously it's going to boil down to how comfortable I feel, but hearing some opinions and experiences will help immensely with making that call. If I do cut them all down, are there any sort of tips or tricks I should keep in mind? I came across an awesome idea from @hornet post Here. I also have concerns over cutting so many planks equally, and came across a 'chopper ii' but it seemed to have mixed reviews - maybe it's find for just cutting planking.

 

 

 

Edited May 7 by MBerg
Removed second, repeated image

[Thukydides]

It is not hard to cut the lengths. All you need is a craft knife. and to measure carefully. If you go slowly and carefully you shouldn’t have any problems. As a first time builder I can say I ran into many much harder problems than cutting scale length planks :).

 

I would recommend you plan out the planking pattern and maybe even draw it on the false deck to assist.

Edited May 7 by Thukydides

[JerryTodd]

Do you just want it done so you can move on?  Is there a deadline?  Cutting corners may get you somewhere faster, but it tends to magnify errors, not just in looks, but in frequency.
I glued all 500ish piece of scale-length decking (cut from 4 foot lengths) on my 5 foot long hull when I easily could have scribed some plywood.  There were a couple of places I had to pull a piece off and put in another, reusing the removed piece somewhere else.  That would have been a bigger pain using full 4 foot lengths.  When it was done, none of the left-over scrap was longer than an inch, so doing it this way was a more efficient use of materials.

 

I recommend all planking/plating be done in scale pieces on anything 1:64 scale and up, because you get more from it that way.  The decision,of course, is only yours to make.

[Jaager]

To add to your possible options:

First,  I have been following this since the early 1970's and subscribing to all of the English language "journals" as well as about every book as it came out.  The only instance of having a deck plank butt on the same beam with every other strake has come from OcCre.  I have no idea where they came up it something both hideous and dangerous engineering.  Having ax handle diameter trunnels - standing out like carbide lamp beacons - at and only at each butt - is graphitti. 

 

Wood swells across the fibers.  They are not muscles.  they do not get longer.  If the end to end butt is tight when the deck is laid, a wide caulk filled seam is not needed.  The end to end butts would be difficult to see.

On actual ships that were well built, the deck trunnels were supposed to be as invisible as possible.   If it is to be modeler's convention show off deck trunnels,  there is a rigid pattern to be followed - and the contrast should still be subtile. 

 

Polaris is more boat than ship.  I do not see when it was supposed to have been built - or where - but in early to mid 19th c US, 40 foot long 10  inch wide planks were specified for corvettes - much larger.   A single plank per strake - without a cross scratch - would pass muster.  If you are laying it on a subdeck before it joins the stanchions/top timbers and outside planking a single is easy.  Trimming off the overhang at each end is easy.   If the deck is laid on beams.  with waterways in place,   the complex ends are more difficult to fit.  Jogging, nibbing,  or curved  starting outside in.   Getting a winning role of the dice at both ends is difficult.  Here two pieces may be easier.  A simple 90 degree join in the middle is easier to pull off.

 

Higher cost and not so good a choice for end cutting.

Choppers - crush fibers - even as a knife blade - they do not cut. 

HF Drill Master 2 inch - motorized - needs a lot of work on the work surface- kinda dangerous - throws what it cuts off  - is clearance so is probably soon to be extinct - MicroLux is probably the same unit.   Prozzon wants your next born for something 10 times more expensive and maybe 25% better made.

 

Quick and dirty:

Use a saw - a razor saw - mass market work fine - Zona , Exacto,

I prefer a cut on the pull stroke.   This requires either a Japanese mini saw - expensive - or a razor saw with a blade that can be separated from its backing and reversed.

 

a miter box - depends - with a saw with teeth that have set, the slot has to be wider - so some play.

Protractor:

Draw a line and cut by eye, then:

 

Get a 3/4" thick square of wood  12"x12" is enough - plywood is OK,  an off cut from an Oak stair tread wonderful.   Overhang the end of the plank.  Sanding blocks -  80 grit to remove a lot.  220 grit to finish.     If you can find sand paper with a simple paper or cloth backing - not the non-skid stuff - a coat of rubber cement on the block and on the paper - wait 15 min - press together - endless supply.

 

I found a $13 Porter Cable replacement miter gauge that might fit the board.  A stick of wood with a center pivot,  a distance out spike or screw, and a protractor with movable arms may be all you need to get accuracy for any angle.

[RossR]

in my opinion using a pencil to simulate the joint creates a joint that is too visible.  I like to cut the planks to length and use a pencil on the edge of the planks to create a slightly darkened joint that is far more subtle than drawing on with a pencil. If you choose to add the treenails, at 1/50 scale you can probably make them look good, but again I would stay away from pencil dots.  There are some good examples of treenails made out of monofilament line on the forum.  If you choose the jog or nibble the planks, I would look at the instructions for the US Brig Syren from Modelshipways.  It can be downloaded from their website, but I think you can make a great looking model without if you don't want to tackle that on your first planked ship.  

 

If you are worried about cutting the planks straight check out the "worlds smallest mitre box" on the Micro Mark website.  Works well with a razor saw.

 

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, MBerg said:

If I do cut them all down, are there any sort of tips or tricks I should keep in mind?

 

43 minutes ago, Jaager said:

Use a saw - a razor saw -

And

43 minutes ago, Jaager said:

a miter box

Make your own, the skills needed for model making and tool making are the same.

 

See posts 261 through 271 in Tims 'Speedy' thread https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34769-hm-cutter-speedy-1828-by-oakheart-from-plans-drawn-by-bill-shoulders-in-1972/page/9/

You can make yours longer so you can set a stop for longer deck planks.

 

For getting things square, the corners (and sides) of (factory cut) MDF sheets are square and the sides are straight ( you might be able to get some scraps from a cabinet maker) as are the corners of copy paper, both can be used as squares.

 

By gluing sandpaper to the (factory cut) side of a piece of MDF you can sand things to 90°

 

[Dr PR]

Planking the deck is simpler than you might think. The question is whether it will nag at you if you don't try to make it "authentic" (whatever that means).

 

We learn from every build we do. If you plank the deck on this build, the next time it will be "old hat.""

 

Here is a link to the deck planking I did on my current model:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=605072

 

[allanyed]

You wrote.    How much more difficult is it to cut and lay individual deck planks vs full length strips?

In my own experience, it is not.   In practice many times I found it easier to do typical scaled 25 foot lengths.   There may be a problem though as your build is POB and the spacing of bulkheads may not be conducive to realistic butt shifts.  If that is the case, full length strakes may be better and then just fake the butts. 

 

Allan

[MBerg]

Thanks for all the responses. Some great info and things to think about here.

14 hours ago, JerryTodd said:

Do you just want it done so you can move on?  Is there a deadline?

6 hours ago, Dr PR said:

The question is whether it will nag at you if you don't

 

Good comments to put it into perspective.

 

13 hours ago, Jaager said:

I have no idea where they came up it something both hideous and dangerous engineering

...

supposed to have been built - or where

 

My guess is simplicity, but I'm glad I'm not the only one that even with a beginners eye, looked at it and thought 'what the heck?' (or maybe even something a little harsher). As for the boat, I believe it doesn't exist, but is a loose representation of a "Swift 1805 Virginia Pilot Boat". I was thinking along the lines of 120mm planks which would translate to about 20'. Maybe that's too short, but it's a small boat.

 

12 hours ago, RossR said:

in my opinion using a pencil to simulate the joint creates a joint that is too visible.  ... If you choose to add the treenails, at 1/50 scale you can probably make them look good, but again I would stay away from pencil dots.

 

Interesting and very good to know. This will help me keep the look of 'ridiculousness' to a minimum. That's probably why some of the close ups look so bad, I couldn't put my finger on it, but those butt joints are thick and dark.

 

12 hours ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

See posts 261 through 271 in Tims 'Speedy' thread https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34769-hm-cutter-speedy-1828-by-oakheart-from-plans-drawn-by-bill-shoulders-in-1972/page/9/

 

Very much appreciated. I skimmed through and tihnk I partially have the idea. I'll go back again, I think regardless if I do this now, this would be a great tool to make.

 

4 hours ago, allanyed said:

the spacing of bulkheads may not be conducive to realistic butt shifts

 

Well this just opens up the other can of worms I had in my back pocket. It's laid on a false deck so I think I can 'imagine' the bulkheads wherever I want; however, what would be accurate in that sense?

I tried to find info on if the bulkhead spacing would be relatively accurate, or if I pick a different spacing, how would I know it makes sense? I was trying to find info on the Swift 1805 (a Virginia pilot boat?) (kit by Artesania Latina), but I guess some of this stuff is open to interpretation too unless it's an incredibly popular ship with actual plans.

[allanyed]

 The bulkhead spacing on many  kits has a much bigger spacing of the bulkheads (deck beams).    In the case of Polaris from OcCre, as mentioned above there is no such ship in real life so maybe it's best to go with what feels right to you as it is a beginner kit.   See post #5 in the topic https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34238-occre-polaris-is-there-a-real-role-model/      For example if this was a multi deck ship the upper deck beams are about 4 feet asunder.  The forecastle and quarter deck beams are closer to 2 feet asunder.   For your single deck vessel it is probably a guess, but two feet to three feet asunder would probably be OK.   

 

Give careful consideration to the hull planking which is usually much more of a challenge.   Study the tutorial by David Antscherl here at MSW in the Articles Database and the four part You Tube video by Chuck Passaro as it will serve you well in the future.  

 

Allan

 

Edited May 10 by allanyed

[Jaager]

5 hours ago, MBerg said:

is a loose representation of a "Swift 1805 Virginia Pilot Boat".

I think this was taken from Steele 1805 plates.   A pilot schooner was probably about at the limit for long term deep water sail.

Since it is from Steele,  his table of scantlings should serve.

Western wooden sailing vessels did not have bulkheads -  except perhaps some fishermen with a live catch hold.   They had deck beams.

The outer ends rested on clamps - thick inside planks.

The small vessel I have selected from Steele is the 10 guns Brigantine  - small two masts

clamps  # 2   3.5" thick at upper edge  2.5" thick bottom edge  the pair are 13" wide ( 6.5" + 6.5"  or  7" + 6" - like that)

Deck plank   3"

Beams  round up 6"    sided 9.5"   moulded 7"    # 16

 

Use the location of the hatches and masts  to give a starting point for the spacing.   I do not have data for how wide the space between the beams at each mast is, but it was fairly close with room for changing the angle of the mast.

The hatch just are.  The other beams are probably at regular intervals.  A deck house would be a hatch.

 

The beams are a series of arched timbers  9.5" wide,  7" thick  - each has a different length-   Because the peak of the arch for each is 6" in the middle, the curve is different for each one.

 

Edited May 8 by Jaager

[MBerg]

Appreciate the last two messages. I think I had to read jaager about six times before I started to figure out what you were talking about, but now I know Steeles a person and even came across a free ebook about naval construction on google books.

 

This gives me a great starting point to get something more realistic and aesthetically pleasing than the instructions. I had some meeting as the office this week so went ahead and plotted a few copies of scale drawings which will help me plan this out and ultimately help track it when I start assembling. Thanks again to all!

[Thukydides]

You can also find Steel's 1794 book online and transcribed here https://maritime.org/doc/steel/

[tlevine]

Or in easy to read tables here https://thenrgstore.org/collections/books-and-practicums/products/steels-tables-of-the-dimensions-of-a-ship-of-each-class-in-the-british-navy

[allanyed]

21 hours ago, Thukydides said:

You can also find Steel's 1794 book online and transcribed here https://maritime.org/doc/steel/

Keep in mind the 1794 edition is about masting and rigging, nothing about the structure of the hull. The Sim Comfort print of Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, if you can find one, goes for about $1000.  You can find all the scantlings from the 1719-1750 Establishments, The Shipbuilders Repository 1788 and Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture in one book from Seawatch books.  If the era Steel covers is your only interest The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, including the scantlings, are free to download  https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Elements_and_Practice_of_Naval_Archi/TWsmw-QqvmAC?hl=en&gbpv=1    Once you download it, scroll down to page 496 to get to the principal dimension folios.  Keep in mind this is for British ships, but lacking better information on US ships, these should be close.  This download was mentioned in a post here at MSW in 2017.

 

Allan

Edited May 12 by allanyed

[Capt. Kelso]

I've used the Chopper I & II for many years for various projects with good results, especially cutting hull and deck planks. The Chopper II is a much-improved version of the Chopper I, it's important to change the blades regularly. 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  My Dad once made two smaller scale clippers (1:120 Scientific kits), and used flat toothpicks that were about 0.040" wide - representing about 4.8" planks.  Perhaps a tad undersized (6" scaled planks might have been better), but they looked OK and did not need any 'dots' at the butt joints.  The non-tapered portion of the toothpicks he used (cut off with a razor blade) measured about 1.6"  long, representing 16 foot lengths at 1:120 .  I've no idea whether this sort of tooth pick is available anymore.  I've seen thin wooden coffee stirrers that would do for plank stock at a larger scale.  Hmmmm, 'don't know what scale the doctor's wooden tongue depressors would be, widthwise.

 

  I have various sized of pre-scribed decking stock (still available and most often used for modeling wood-sided buildings in railroad layouts or dioramas) that I'll use as needed, rather than do it plank-by-plank.  That seems the easiest way to get 'good enough' results.  Its like the Coach in "Cool Runnings" (a film about the Jamaica Olympic bobsled team), where he tells the team that wining a medal is a fine thing ... but if you're not good enough without the medal, then you won't be good enough with it.