Ratlines....why so important.....

[Script]

I will beg pardon for my comments before I even start.

Sorry....

Seems like there is some thinking that if a vessel does not have rat lines it is not as difficult to build or is substandard. I would like to disagree.....

My list of completed builds does not include any with rat lines.... Why.....because my most ardent supporter...my wife, Claire, does not like ships "with all those strings and sticks"
Years ago I built the Golden Hind and the Constitution cutaway (Both had ratlines installed). They were relegated to the basement and then given away....no place for them.
My four most recent builds, and the America, another old one....do not have rat lines and are going to be displayed in our family room. They are not all ships so there is a nice variety of construction techniques involved. (She has hinted that she doesn't anticipate a place for the Sopwith Camel I'm about to start.....oh, we'll.
I enjoy wood working more than knot tying but have a great admiration for those who build rigged tall ships. It takes a lot of patience and determination to create the fine looking fully rigged vessel.
Some day I may do one again but in the meantime, I'll be building things that we both like and she, usually, chooses.

Again, no intent to offend or desire to be reported.....just want to make a statement for any other non knot tiers out there....

Cheers

Jim

Edited September 27, 2013 by Script

[chris watton]

At the end of the day, it's your kit/model, you are free to do whatever you see fit.

 

However, a 'scale model' should have the ratlines rigged if it had them, otherwise it will always remain an unfinished scale model. IMOHO.

[Script]

At the end of the day, it's your kit/model, you are free to do whatever you see fit.

 

However, a 'scale model' should have the ratlines rigged if it had them, otherwise it will always remain an unfinished scale model. IMOHO.

Chris,

 

I completely agree.......

 

Jim

[S.Coleman]

I understand your point. And I also understand as it is your kit it is completely up to you how you want it displayed. I thought the same, but when my partner said a sailing ship is not a sailing ship without all it's bits and bobs ( as she calls the rigging) I have had to complete all the rigging before I am allowed to display it.. But as I said, it's up to you and I respect that. Happy modeling!!!

[Lucius Molchany]

Depends on the vessel being modeled.If it had ratlines put them on even though it is not a lot of fun!

[Script]

Note.......I did not mean to imply that one should not add rat lines if they are part of the vessel. They are an integral part of a full rigged ship. We're I to build a ship requiring rat lines, I would install them.....hope that clears up my position....

[popeye the sailor]

it depends on you taste in ships Jim  {good to know you by your first name,  by the way}.    I'm kind of a fishing ship nut myself,  but I love them all, and I build whatever she needs.  I can see your admiral's point,  especially if she has to clean it.  my admiral won't touch them....... ....she loves them and what I do,  but she is so afraid to break anything.   I had my AmericA out in the hallway {my 'dead space'} for a while.

    I went out there last week for something or another,  and found that spiders had taken over the space between the ship and the wall!  it is in the living room now........a sitting duck for my grand kids,  who likes what I do as well   {don't know how many times I've said 'don't touch' }.     in my mind.......anything with rigging should be in a case anyway.  they are very  'admiral friendly' 

 

try a tug........or a lobster boat.........go for the grand scale.........a Nordkap!

[Stockholm tar]

I can just here one salt to another:

 

'Wot... no ratlines? How're the sailors to get 'upstairs' then?'

 

Sorry Jim, but if she's supposed to be a model of a historic ship, then ratlines come 'as standard'. The best way to do them, is to tie a few at a time, then do something else (either on the model or elsewhere), and come back to them later.

[captainbob]

However, a 'scale model' should have the ratlines rigged if it had them, otherwise it will always remain an unfinished scale model. IMOHO.

 

Does this mean that a ship built with stub masts is unfinished?  Or a ship with some of the hull planks missing is unfinished?  If ratlines are missing why is that any different?

[augie]

Good point, Cap'n'Bob.  Is an admiralty version an unfinished model?  I think not.   Just my 2 cents.

[trippwj]

Back to Jim's initial point, a ship/vessel that doesn't have the complex rigging or is not designed to include ratlines is no less an achievement than one that is designed with rigging and billions of tiny knots.  One need only look at Gene Bodnar's Cairo or Popeye's Lobsie twins to get a feel for the level of effort and skill required!  Each of these genres of ship brings unique challenges and requires dedication and effort to complete.  I have a great deal of respect for those who have tackled the old sailing vessels with rigging and so on - the patience and care required is amazing (hence my currently un-finished build) - the learning curve is challenging me each step!).  At the same time, I see the amazing craftsmanship put into the non-masted ships and admire that builder as well.  For example, take a look at the Confederacy or the new Essex kit - notice something missing? Both are an opportunity to build one of those beautiful sailing ships without the potentially build-ending addition of rigging and so on.  The hulls themselves are beautiful - and a build to be proud of!

[chris watton]

Does this mean that a ship built with stub masts is unfinished?  Or a ship with some of the hull planks missing is unfinished?  If ratlines are missing why is that any different?

That is of course up to you to decide, isn't it?

 

Stub masts is an accepted way of displaying a model, as it depicts the subject at a particular stage in it's life/construction, as do 'missing planks' -the latter also shows off the internal detail and extra work carried out - leaving the ratlines off just smacks of 'couldn't be bothered to do the necessary but mundane aspects' and detracts from the overall effect. The two examples you mention do not, especially when executed correctly.

 

If you have a full set of masts however (including top and topgallants, even royals), then not adding ratlines makes no visual or historical sense - once the lower masts were stepped, the lower shrouds and ratlines would have been rigged, otherwise how would the men climb to the tops to aid with the stepping of the upper masts?

 

This is only my personal opinion, and not gospel, of course.

[Script]

I can just here one salt to another:

 

'Wot... no ratlines? How're the sailors to get 'upstairs' then?'

 

Sorry Jim, but if she's supposed to be a model of a historic ship, then ratlines come 'as standard'. The best way to do them, is to tie a few at a time, then do something else (either on the model or elsewhere), and come back to them later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kester,

 

Evidently my saying I would install ratlines if that was part of my chosen project did not register.....

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

Edited September 27, 2013 by Script

[Script]

Perhaps things have gone a bit off track.........

 

Nowhere did I ever mention not installing ratlines.

 

The point I was attempting to make, (and I failed....... ) is that there is no merit badge,award or any other thing that makes one type of wood crafting better than another.  There had seemed to be some implication that if your project was absent ratlines it was easier to build or not quite as 'special'. 

 

Sorry I was so unable to communicate......I'll try harder next new topic

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

[augie]

And just to clarify my position....  there is nothing less 'magic' about a boat or ship designed without ratlines.  I greatly appreciate canoes, whaleboats, tugboats , submarines and heavy metal battleships.  We are, after all, modelers.

[NMBROOK]

I get completely what you are saying Jim.You choose ships to build without lots of rigging and ratlines,it is the original subject that dictates this.I myself prefer to work with wood rather than thread.I don't think this detracts from the skill involved to build a model,you only need to look at some of the Navy Board style models in the scratchbuild section.If it is your hobby then surely do what you most enjoy.Personally I would rather spend hours carving ornaments than tying knots.I think many of my future builds will be stubmasted,compounded by the fact I do not have a full size museum at home to display all the ships on my build list.One fully rigged first rate takes up more space than three admiralty style ones. 

Kind Regards Nigel

[Stockholm tar]

Kester,

 

Evidently my saying I would install ratlines if that was part of my chosen project did not register.....

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood you.

[Ulises Victoria]

Somehow the rigging is the aspect of building a ship that I enjoy the most, but also have to admit that tying ratlines is the part of the rigging that I enjoy the less. Anyway I wouldn't attempt to build a "ratlineless" ship. Just because I like the fully rigged, three mast ships best. As they say, to each his own and it's good that we have different tastes and opinions, otherwise life would be too boring! 

[jud]

By placing rat guards on the shrouds, thereby stopping  rats from running up and down  the shrouds, ratlines wouldn't be needed.

jud

[pompey2]

It's horses for courses. I find that the more detail on a model the better it looks, the higher the challenge and naturally the fruitier the cursing.

Nick

[pirozzi]

Hi Jim,

No one hates tieing thousands of clove hitches more than me. However, those tiny details are what what makes a build stand out, in my opinion. I am currently building the Sovereign of the Seas which has 3 five section masts. That is more ratlines then most any other ship. It takes me forever to tie them all and it is boring at times, but the result really pleases me.

But like others have said. Your build is yours only and whatever suits you is important. There are no rules that say any builder has to do it one way or another.

 

Vince P.

[aitch]

Jim, I imagine this post is going to raise a storm before it dies down, so here’s my two-penn’th. You think along the same lines as I do, hence my HM Bomb Vessel Granado, still unfinished regarding the dreaded ratlines, lies neglected and forlorn in my garage. Whilst I applaud and admire anyone with the patience to complete the ratlines, in my opinion there is no art in this activity, only boredom. Although the amount of work involved in tying countless ratlines must be mind-boggling, the true art and creativity lies in the actual construction of the model. Look at any ship model where the builder has been less than skilful in planking the hull or shaping the masts and yards. These faults surely stand out more than the absence of ratlines? Is it a better model because the ship carries ratlines, regardless of the poor workmanship of the main body of the ship? Or is the model which has been carefully and skilfully made, finished to a high degree of workmanship, more pleasing to the eye? I know which model I would admire.

Aitch

[demonborger]

http://izhevsk.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/005520/5520338.jpg

 

That is an interesting idea for a space saving stub/rigged hybrid

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I was VERY SURPRISED to learn recently, here on M.S.W., that there were at one point in the past New York City Pilot Schooners that had no ratlines on their shrouds. Presumably to make them that much faster?  I couldn't then and still can't fathom how they would have been able to manage things without them. Sure they could use a boatswains chair for getting aloft and maybe they even had crew aboard who were so extraordinarily fit that they could go aloft arm over arm on the naked shrouds? But I still can't understand what, if anything, was gained by omitting ratlines. A tiny bit less windage? an infinitesimal lowering of the center of gravity?

[Script]

I was VERY SURPRISED to learn recently, here on M.S.W., that there were at one point in the past New York City Pilot Schooners that had no ratlines on their shrouds. Presumably to make them that much faster?  I couldn't then and still can't fathom how they would have been able to manage things without them. Sure they could use a boatswains chair for getting aloft and maybe they even had crew aboard who were so extraordinarily fit that they could go aloft arm over arm on the naked shrouds? But I still can't understand what, if anything, was gained by omitting ratlines. A tiny bit less windage? an infinitesimal lowering of the center of gravity?

 

Frankie, 

 

I think they stopped using ratlines so the rats were easier to catch if anyone wanted a snack...........

[Craigie65]

Aitch

For me rigging is an art. You are correct to say poor workmanship detracts from a model. But any more so than no rigging - not for me - it's the overall effect. It does require patience - that's where music and beer come in!

 

Script - did you know what your were starting with your post?

 

#keepknotting

[Script]

Aitch

For me rigging is an art. You are correct to say poor workmanship detracts from a model. But any more so than no rigging - not for me - it's the overall effect. It does require patience - that's where music and beer come in!

 

Script - did you know what your were starting with your post?

 

#keepknotting

 

Aitch,

 

Not really.  I was intending to just say that it does not necessarily take ratlines to make a good vessel.  The Admiralty models you see being built here are a testament to that.  Then there are all the ship types and eras that did not use ratlines that deserve some mention.  The Arizona would have looked kind of silly with ratlines as would the Hunley or the carrier Enterprise......

 

Cheers,

 

Jim

[Craigie65]

Jim

Now we are in total agreement My Tirpitz would look strange festooned in rat lines, shrouds and braces

Edited November 13, 2013 by Craigie65