michael mott Posted December 3, 2013 #1 Posted December 3, 2013 Floss/Skipjack Part 1 History Floss was one of a pair of Launches that were built in 1909 by Herbert Minett and was powered by a single cylinder Ferro engine, her sister named Skipjack pictured here had a two cylinder Buffalo engine. These launches were built for Andrew Mellon the Pittsburgh Millionaire. Model I am still tracking down information about Floss, and I have a few leads. I am going to build this model the same way as the full size boats of this type were often built. Moulds were suspended from the ceiling in some cases and others were built upside down. The Stem Keel and Stern timbers were set up and the moulds positioned. In either case to build a model using either of these methods I will need to support the moulds and backbone to fix ribbands for setting the bent frames before planking. After the ribbands are fixed to the Stem, moulds and stern the bent frames will be fitted to the keel and then temporarily attached to the ribbands with pins. Once all the frames are set the sheer clamps and bilge stringers and floors will be added. After the basic shell is assembled then the planking will commence. In order to accomplish all this I needed to build a building board with some specific features. Using odds and ends of materials I had laying around the shop I came up with an acceptable solution. The base is 36inches by 10inches by 1 7/32 inches thick it was cut from and old office desk top. The white square tubes are 3/4 inch railing bars left over from a project a couple of years ago. The blue anodized aluminum tubes are also 3/4 inch diameter left over from another project. The white plastic components were machined from some offcuts picked up at a commercial plastic supplier. The aluminum rails are a low cost bar clamp that was cut in half and the clamp mechanisms removed. The dome nuts are 5/16 and are threaded onto a length of 5/16 ready rod that causes the clamps to lock on the rails. The cross rails are a sections of some 3/4 inch U channel that was slit down the middle in the table saw. The cross rails are clamped with some cherry blocks and 4x40 allen head cap screws. These lines are still being reviewed and updated as I get new information, When I am satisfied that they are as good as I can get then the build will actually start. Floss lines.pdf Until then I am getting on with some tests regarding bent frames and testing my ideas about the construction method, and finishing the elements of the building board. Because of scale and look at the large scale of 1:8 the frames will need to be made of something different than oak it is just too coarse. these frames are 1 1/4 scale inches square Fir the wood was boiled for 15 minutes in water. The actual frames will likely be somewhere around 1 1/4 by 3/4 with the inside edges rounded off before bending. I am also testing without heating and just soaking overnight. This will probably be a while in the making and I am in no rush I have lots of work doing the testing and research. it is a great diversion and a break from the intense work on the Pilot Cutter. Plus I needed something to fill in my spare time;>) Michael EdT, Perls, mtaylor and 8 others 11 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
SailorGreg Posted December 3, 2013 #2 Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) Would this lunch be open to everyone if we bring a few beers along? Wow! - another Mott Masterclass in the offing. I am really looking forward to this, and am intrigued by your building board and can't quite figure out how you will use it...? Time will tell no doubt. I am prepared to wager a large sum that the 1/8 scale Ferro engine will be a work of art in its own right. I know you are taking it easy on this build - bit not TOO easy please! Greg Edited December 3, 2013 by SailorGreg Quote
michael mott Posted December 3, 2013 Author #3 Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) Hello Greg and welcome to this build. Lunch is fixed, so yes come along for some goodies The Ferro engine will be a working gasoline engine as well. when I was 16 I made a working overhead valve gas engine that ran on lighter fluid the piston was made from an old spark plug and the crankshaft was made from a few sections of bicycle chain soldered together. the points were full size off an old car and the whole lot was soldered together with soft solder. it was very crude but it would run for about 30 seconds before running out of fuel. I have learned a few things since then so I would imagine that once I have the drawings of the Ferro Engine I will be able to build one. The building board is designed to hold the mould boards while the ribbands are fitted with the boat held up about 2 1/2 inches off the base so that I can get to it all easily. The fixtures for holding the stem and stern posts are not yet made I will work on these as time permits. Today I have a lot of snow to clear and it is -16 degrees and windy. Michael Edited December 3, 2013 by michael mott Keith Black, avsjerome2003, canoe21 and 3 others 6 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
realworkingsailor Posted December 3, 2013 #4 Posted December 3, 2013 Oh.... This looks interesting! Can't wait to see that home made working engine! Andy Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy
captainbob Posted December 3, 2013 #5 Posted December 3, 2013 Ah, yes. Fun in the makeing. Bob Keith Black and slackwater 2 Quote Every build is a learning experience. Current build: SS_ Mariefred Completed builds: US Coast Guard Pequot Friendship-sloop, Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard, Spray, Grand-Banks-dory, a gaff rigged yawl, HOGA (YT-146), Int'l Dragon Class II, Two Edwardian Launches In the Gallery: Catboat, International-Dragon-Class, Spray
michael mott Posted December 4, 2013 Author #6 Posted December 4, 2013 Andy, there are quite a few plans out there for model IC engines, The model engineer featured quite a few over the years. Bob, thanks for looking in. Floss Part 2 The next stage of the build board included fixing the top rails together with some 3/4 x 1 1/2 inch U channel this will also hold the clamps for the stem and stern. Also some pictures of the way that the top frame can be flipped over. Michael Keith Black, dnputnam, canoe21 and 4 others 7 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
mtaylor Posted December 4, 2013 #7 Posted December 4, 2013 Michael, This looks to be another fascinating build. Intriguing build board. I'm pulling up a chair. Keith Black 1 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
michael mott Posted December 4, 2013 Author #8 Posted December 4, 2013 Mark, Crackers, welcome. I hope that I can contribute some interesting methods for others to try, although I'm guessing that most of this will have already been done by somebody else. I will be setting up three mould forms and a stem to test the principle of working with this frame. 1. To see what sort of dimension and strength that the ribbands will need to be. 2. To determine if the temporary attachment method will in fact work. 3. To find out if the method of placing the planks to the ribs will also work satisfactorily. 4 To test the mould and stem clamps. The picture shows frame number 17 test this was done using the pins on the homasote board, it is clear Fir with the grain laying flat across the width of the frame. I will need to choose carefully the wood and the grain direction for maximum strength. I have been able to get an email forwarded to the present owner of Floss, and am hoping it proves to be fruitful. Michael mtaylor, avsjerome2003, Keith Black and 1 other 4 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
michael mott Posted December 5, 2013 Author #9 Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) Floss Part 3 For the first test I am setting up 4 moulds and the stem, gripe stem knee and a section of keel. The moulds are bolted to the cross beams with 4x40 cap screws, The strips are 1/8th by 1/8th white pine that I will try as ribbands for the first test I have discovered that I need to add a little side to side movement to fine tune the moulds to the centreline. The moulds on the cross beams are positioned using some small engineers squares. Michael Edited June 7, 2014 by michael mott mtaylor, pete48, archjofo and 8 others 11 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
mtaylor Posted December 5, 2013 #10 Posted December 5, 2013 Michael, Just the jig and moulds themselves are impressive as hell... A scale model unto itself. pete48, Keith Black and Perls 3 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)
pete48 Posted December 5, 2013 #11 Posted December 5, 2013 Looks great Michael, Very nice setup you have there Best Regards, Pete Quote "may your sails be full of wind and the sun on your back" Current Builds : Future Builds : N.G Herreshoff 12 1/2 Scratch Build 3/4" = 1' - 0" Scale Completed Builds : Volvo 65 Farr Yacht Design Herreshoff Alerion Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 Volvo Open 70 Member : The Herreshoff Registry Montgomery Sailboat Owners Group Peter Kunst Sailboat Models http://www.herreshoffregistry.org/ http://www.msog.org/ http://www.facebook.com/Peter-Kunst-Sailboat-Models-1524464774524480/
TBlack Posted December 5, 2013 #12 Posted December 5, 2013 Michael, Fabulous idea! Nice looking subject; I hope you're able to get the information you need for your satisfaction, although the photo of Skipjack gives you quite a bit of information. This model will be about 28.5" long? With working engine? That build will be fun to watch, although I can't envision a crankshaft out of a bicycle chain! Tom Quote
michael mott Posted December 5, 2013 Author #13 Posted December 5, 2013 Mark, Pete, Tom, thanks for looking in. Mark, some of the building boards that I have seen on this forum were my inspiration, there are some nice rigs out there. Pete, I am hoping that this set up will be flexible enough to use for a number of small boat hulls. Tom, Yes you are correct the drawings I have done so far put the hull at 28 1/2 inches with a beam of 7 1/2 inches and 2 1/2 free-board at midships with a draught of 1 11/32. these dimensions are subject to change as I get more accurate information hopefully from the present owner. My other route would be to contact the owner of Skipjack which is the sister boat albeit with a bigger engine, a Two Cylinder Buffalo. Michael avsjerome2003 1 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
captainbob Posted December 5, 2013 #14 Posted December 5, 2013 That's a nice loking building frame. Glad I'm watching this build. Bob Quote Every build is a learning experience. Current build: SS_ Mariefred Completed builds: US Coast Guard Pequot Friendship-sloop, Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard, Spray, Grand-Banks-dory, a gaff rigged yawl, HOGA (YT-146), Int'l Dragon Class II, Two Edwardian Launches In the Gallery: Catboat, International-Dragon-Class, Spray
Jim Lad Posted December 6, 2013 #15 Posted December 6, 2013 Looking forward to watching the new build grow, Michael - but not at the expense of the cutter, I hope! John Quote
michael mott Posted December 6, 2013 Author #16 Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Bob thanks, I can tell you that fiddling around with this frame has given me a whole new appreciation for all the builders out there building the fully framed models I would be forever turning the thing over to shake out something I dropped into the depths. John, not a chance that this will take away too much from the cutter, I just wanted to get a bit of a start building the board and doing some tests while researching the launch. Floss Part 4 Made one of the classic mistakes today, I measured off one of my prints and not a dimension, and the scale was off on the print. hence the brass spacer. I kept looking at the keel clamp next to the drawing, and the keel itself all were fine it was a different print that the spacer stand was on. The other screw up today was breaking this 5/8ths end mill while making the aluminum keel clamp supports that were too short. I had used a piece of aluminum the same thickness as the piece being machined so the piece was not tight enough in the vice. I was using a climb cut and as soon as the cutter began it started to pull the metal toward itself and before I could turn off the mill the end mill snapped. The wooden keel clamps are made from a piece of white Lilac that I cut in 1974 lovely wood. The keel test piece is maple and the width is 11/32 The gripe is balancing on the rest of the test keel Michael Edited June 7, 2014 by michael mott canoe21, CaptainSteve, EdT and 8 others 11 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
Jim Lad Posted December 6, 2013 #17 Posted December 6, 2013 It's not whether we make boo-boos, Michael, it's how we overcome them! John mtaylor 1 Quote
michael mott Posted December 7, 2013 Author #18 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Well I did not get to work on any models today see my post about Maria. However I had a wonderful conversation this afternoon with a Roger Dyment who is the owner of Skipjack the sister to Floss, the boats are identical except for the engines, and since i have not heard from the owner of Floss I think I will be building her sister.Roger told me that he would be happy to give me any assistance, and take photographs of the hull as she is out of the water for winter. Roger told me that about 70% of the hull timber is original, and although the Buffalo Engine is not it is the correct vintage here is a link that roger passed on about SkipjackMichael Edited December 7, 2013 by michael mott pete48 and avsjerome2003 2 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
Jim Lad Posted December 7, 2013 #19 Posted December 7, 2013 That's great news, Michael.. It's always good to find access to the original! John Quote
shipmodel Posted December 7, 2013 #20 Posted December 7, 2013 Michael - Yet another excellent and impressive project. Count me in as an appreciative observer. Where do you find the time and energy for all these projects at the same time? Do you sleep at all? Dan Quote Current build -Khufu solar barge, c. 2,560 BCE, a cross-section model at 1:10 scale Prior scratch builds - Royal yacht Henrietta, USS Monitor, USS Maine, HMS Pelican, SS America, SS Rex, SS Uruguay, Viking knarr, Gokstad ship, Thames River Skiff , USS Oneida, Swan 42 racing yacht, Queen Anne's Revenge (1710), SS Andrea Doria (1952), SS Michelangelo (1962) , Queen Anne's Revenge (2nd model) USS/SS Leviathan (1914), James B Colgate (1892), POW bone model (circa 1800) restoration, SS Mayaguez (c.1975) Prior kit builds - AL Dallas, Mamoli Bounty. Bluejacket America, North River Diligence, Airfix Sovereign of the Seas "Take big bites. Moderation is for monks." Robert A. Heinlein
pete48 Posted December 7, 2013 #21 Posted December 7, 2013 Looks great Micheal Quote "may your sails be full of wind and the sun on your back" Current Builds : Future Builds : N.G Herreshoff 12 1/2 Scratch Build 3/4" = 1' - 0" Scale Completed Builds : Volvo 65 Farr Yacht Design Herreshoff Alerion Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 Volvo Open 70 Member : The Herreshoff Registry Montgomery Sailboat Owners Group Peter Kunst Sailboat Models http://www.herreshoffregistry.org/ http://www.msog.org/ http://www.facebook.com/Peter-Kunst-Sailboat-Models-1524464774524480/
EdT Posted December 7, 2013 #22 Posted December 7, 2013 Fascinating method, Micheal. Ed Quote All EdT posted material Copyright 2016 Edward J Tosti Young America - extreme clipper 1853 Young America POB Version Modeling the Extreme Clipper Young America Vol 1 1:60 HMS Naiad 1797 The Naiad Frigate Vol I The Naiad Frigate Vol II1:96 Victory
TBlack Posted December 7, 2013 #23 Posted December 7, 2013 Michael, Good news and bad news? Too bad the owner of Floss wouldn't respond. I think that's kind of tacky. But good news that you have found an actual boat to model. No speculating! Any possibility that you can travel to see the boat yourself rather than rely on the owner to get just the right picture? Tom avsjerome2003 1 Quote
michael mott Posted December 7, 2013 Author #24 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) John, yes I was very happy to hear from Roger. Dan, I just make time and my wife is very understanding, I do all the maintenance and building and do the dishes. I did not get much sleep last night because I was out putting wood in the stove every 2 hours, a better wood stove would be good. Pete thanks and welcome. Ed, Thanks for looking in, The method will be proved one way or another, your own dedication to research and accuracy has been one of the things that has inspired me to have a go at making an accurate model of a real existing classic boat. I am looking forward to finding out a number of various sizes and distances from Roger. I am particularly interested in the sizes of the frames, beam width, free board and the shape of the stern under the waterline. One of the things that I am most interested in regarding the build, is bending the frames inside the ribbands rather than over a solid form., I might have to pre bend some but I will find out soon enough. Roger informed me that the planks are affixed with iron nails, so copper will work on the model as a substitute. It will be interesting to see if the nails are bent or were fixed with roves. Tom, Yes I agree good and bad but I have not given up hope of hearing from the owner of Floss yet, the good news is that the hulls are identical and were built at the same time, the only difference being the engines, there does seem to be a good deal of info about the Buffalo as well. The engine will certainly be a bit of a challenge but I can be like a "dog with a bone" sometimes. Regarding a visit to the real boats it is on the other side of the country and travel here is not cheap, it would definitely make a great holiday destination next summer though. Michael Edited December 7, 2013 by michael mott avsjerome2003, EdT, pete48 and 1 other 4 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
Jay 1 Posted December 7, 2013 #25 Posted December 7, 2013 Quietly following along your latest project, Michael--very much looking forward to her unfolding in your very talented hands! Cheers, Jay Quote Current Build: Ariel
Matrim Posted December 8, 2013 #26 Posted December 8, 2013 Tidied the off-topic comments on keeping warm etc. Pm's or shore leave for such discussions please as we just had a page and a half added to this 2 page log on irrelevancies. Cheers, Joss. druxey 1 Quote ...
Shazmira Posted December 8, 2013 #27 Posted December 8, 2013 Michael, this looks fascinating...I will watch quietly and admire your craftsmanship. Quote Robbyn If you risk nothing, you risk everything! Current builds Syren (Model Shipways) version 2.0 AL San Francisco II Mordaunt (Euro Model) Completed Builds 18th Century Longboat designed by Chuck Passaro In the closet Battle Station Al Charles Morgan (1980s version)
michael mott Posted December 19, 2013 Author #28 Posted December 19, 2013 (edited) Floss part 5 While I am waiting for the photographs of the sister launch in Muskoka, I have been revisiting the lines drawing, Looking at a number of other lines drawing of various boats I think that I had made her a little too beamy so this is the begining of some new lines. compared to the original ones. I think the narrower lines are more graceful. it will be interesting to find out the actual beam when I hear from Roger, and see how close my guess is. Michael Edited June 7, 2014 by michael mott EdT, Jay 1, pete48 and 3 others 6 Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.
Jim Lad Posted December 19, 2013 #29 Posted December 19, 2013 Mmmm! Canoe stern as well. This will look really nice! John Quote
pete48 Posted December 19, 2013 #30 Posted December 19, 2013 Very intresting Michael, Nice Drawing Best Regards, Pete Quote "may your sails be full of wind and the sun on your back" Current Builds : Future Builds : N.G Herreshoff 12 1/2 Scratch Build 3/4" = 1' - 0" Scale Completed Builds : Volvo 65 Farr Yacht Design Herreshoff Alerion Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 Volvo Open 70 Member : The Herreshoff Registry Montgomery Sailboat Owners Group Peter Kunst Sailboat Models http://www.herreshoffregistry.org/ http://www.msog.org/ http://www.facebook.com/Peter-Kunst-Sailboat-Models-1524464774524480/
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