Echo by davec - FINISHED - cross-section

[davec]

Had a really nice weekend with some quality time in the workshop. Finished making the knees for the lower deck, as well as a bunch of boxwood and pear treenails to finish treenailing the inner planking.  It was a first attempt at pulling pear through the drawplate, and it went well.  no problem getting it down to #21. 

 

I'm working overnight, and it looks like my liver of sulfur will be waiting for me when I get home. 

 

The beams in the picture have already had finish applied, which is why they are a different color from the knees.  One side of my cross section has inner planking and the other doesn't.  I made the knees on the unplanked side butt up against the frames, which is why the left and right hanging knees appear different shapes along the outer surfaces.  The opposite side is bolted to the inner planking. Hope I have this right.  Making the templates was interesting.  Switching from paper to Bristol board as suggested by David and Greg at the workshop was tremendously helpful.

 

Dave

 

[MEDDO]

Looking good. I always wondered how people dealt with the finished/unfinished side. 

[davec]

Not sure if it was the best way, but I think it will look OK.  I installed the thick stuff plank over the floor head on the unplanked side.  I could have used the same shape on both sides and attached the knee to the thick stuff and lower deck clamp.  I think it would have looked funny to have a gap between the frame and knee where the foot-waling planks were left off.

[albert]

Very nice work davec.

[davec]

It has been a very good break, where I have started to install the pieces I have been chipping away at for the past few months.  I had hoped to be further along, but my experiments with blackening in place with liver of sulfur took longer than planned.  I also had a fair amount of treenailing to do on inner planks that I had already installed.  I'm hoping to have the lower deck framed within the next few weeks.  I have the rest of the knees and beams already made and ready to install.

Edited November 25, 2017 by davec

[MEDDO]

Everything looks great Dave. I was interested in seeing how that liver of sulfur was working out for you.

[dvm27]

Looks excellent, Dave!

[albert]

Great beautiful work Dave.

[davec]

I’ve had some workshop time over the holidays.  Lower deck framing is now in place.  I had put it in place about two weeks ago, then when it was time to put the waterway in place, found that despite test fitting multiple times, the middle beam was higher than the others on the side I was planning on planking.  Not sure what happened, but it is fixed now.  I had made a lot of pieces over the summer, and it is nice to have them installed.  I added the waterway and last part of the lower deck inner hull planking.

I’ve been puzzling out next steps, particularly the course of the outer pump tube. It looks like the well size is from the contract, and inner carling placement per standard practice.  I think I took the carling location right from the drawing, but I may be off a little.  There are only two completed cross sections here, and it looks like Maury and Greg might have run into similar issues.  The tube is 11” square, but the space between the carling and well wall is only 8-9”.  Maury solved this by having the shaft pass through the well wall, and it is hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like Greg may have ended the shaft at the deck level.   I’m only going to install the pump on one side, and trying to sort out what to do.  The inside of the well won’t be visible once the mast partners are in place, so I may end the pump shaft at the deck. I could move the carlings in, but it would require either having  visible patched notches on the beams, or redoing two beams. Not sure what the original builders would have done:  wider well, moved the carling in towards the center, notched the carling, or had the shaft pass through the top part of the well wall.  Plan is to do a full Echo someday, and will need to solve it then. After the first forward progress in months, I'm not really up for a major redo for something that won't be visible.

Hope to make the hatch coaming, mast partners, and plank the deck prior to heading back to work.

Hope everyone is having great holidays.

Dave

[Maury S]

Let's see what Greg and David have to say.

Maury

[clifforddward]

Look forward to hearing how you solve this Dave, I’ll be there myself as my Echo criss section progresses.

[MEDDO]

Interesting problem there.  Lower deck is looking really nice.

[dvm27]

Well, Dave, you are correct in that the clearance is insufficient for the outer pump tube to pass between the well wall and the carling. Your choices would either be to cut it into the well wall or to move the carling 2" inboard (as I did). I believe I also may have narrowed the lower deck partner and carlings an inch or two but I can't recall. At any rate with the inner-most deck planks hiding the evidence I can't be sure. Just cut a blank tube to the correct dimensions and shipwright it until it fits.

 

[davec]

Hi Greg - many thanks.  My understanding is that the pumps were installed during the fitting out, after the frames and decks were in place.  The well is in the contract, so it also must have been built before the pumps were installed.  Some ships probably got converted from the older type pump shafts (bored logs) to the Cole type shafts, which were bigger.  I wonder if this happened to 1780's shipwrights?

 

Your picture was really helpful.  Plan is to make the upper deck partners, which will set where the pump shafts should be, move the carling to the right place, then make the lower deck partner.  It may leave me with extra notches in the beam on the nonplanked side, which I will patch as best I can.  It looks like the carling fits into the space between the two shafts.  I can figure out the path of the brake pump at the same time.

 

How did the Cole pump shaft work?  My understanding is that they were built of planks, as one of the big advantages was a plank could be removed to access the mechanism and fix the chain or clear problems.  The saucers that lifted the water were still circular.  Did they just have large leather gaskets that made good seals between the round washer and square cross section?  It wouldn't matter on the down tube, but on the up tube they would have needed a good seal.

 

thanks!

 

Dave

[davec]

Lower deck done.  I had to redo part – I put the opening for the elm tree pump too close to the mast, and it didn’t clear the mast step.  The outer pump tube clears everything now.  I have the upper deck beam and main mast partners done, and things seem to align.  I got some new pillar files, which made creating the openings in the redo much easier than first time around with a regular file.  I regret not putting the carlings and ledges on both sides.  I had thought it wouldn’t be visible, but it is really easy to see under the deck. I will install them on both sides on the upper deck, which will only be half planked like the lower.  I’ve made the hanging knees for the upper deck, and will do the lodging knees next.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by davec

[tlevine]

Looking very sweet.  Almost every time I omit something because it will be hidden, I end up regretting my decision.  As a suggestion, install the items on the hidden side first for practice.

[MEDDO]

Dave this looks great.  I like Toni's suggestion about practicing with the "hidden" side.  

[davec]

Toni and Michael - many thanks!  Great suggestion about practicing on the less visible side.  I went ahead and ordered the National Maritime Museum plans for Echo.  I'd like to build the whole ship next.  They sent me about half of what I ordered, and I'm still waiting for 3 of the plans. I wish I had ordered them at the start of the cross section.  The inboard profile is incredibly helpful in understanding the relations between the beams and bitts, and really adds to  David and Greg's great instructions.  I may have a little redoing now that I have a better sense of where everything is supposed to end up.

 

Dave

[clifforddward]

Dave, thank you for the mention about the usefulness of the NMM plans for Echo being helpful during the cross section build.  I am just beginning my Echo Cross Section build, and had planned on waiting to order the NMM plans until after my cross section was complete.  I'll re-think that decision and go ahead and order the plans now to have them for assistance during the Cross Section build...if nothing else having them ready at hand will help me understand how to read the old plans...seems good practice to me for a full frame build.

Best Regards,

Cliff

[davec]

Hi Cliff - There are around 7 plan sheets available for the Echo class, which can add up.  Information from a number of them is already in the tutorial, and some are of part of the ship separate from the cross section  (e.g. the stern decorations).  The plan I have found by far the most helpful is the inboard profile, which detailed things I could not visualize or wanted more detail on, for example the spacing and position of lower and upper deck beams and how the bitt pins attached to the beams.  

 

Also, the NMM ordering system charges separate shipping for each plan.  I emailed them, and they put all the plans in a single tube, which greatly reduced the shipping cost.  I'm still waiting for 3 plans they left out of the shipment.  I emailed and they said they would send.

 

Dave

[druxey]

Although not inexpensive, copies of the original draughts are always very helpful as well as instructional! They are a good investment, and make lovely wall decorations later when framed and displayed.

[DocBlake]

 Very nice!

Edited February 10, 2018 by DocBlake

[davec]

I'm hoping to get a little guidance on the placement of the elmtree pumps in the fore/aft dimension.  I'm about to start my third redo, and don't think I have a solution yet.

 

I initially placed the opening as per the directions, which are 100% in agreement with the NMM plans.  This puts the bottom end of the pump on top of the fore part of the mast step (the elm tree pumps are the octagons in the images below).  The mast step and well dimensions are as per the plans, and there is not room between the side of the mast step and side of the well.  I'm comfortable that the mast step is in the right place - the NMM plans show the elm tree pump just forward of the mast opening, right where the mast step would be expected to be.  I moved the pump opening forward to just clear the step.  It was great until I started to fit the main topsail bit pins (which attach to the aft side of the beam above the forward side of the well) and there isn't room between the beam and the pump for the bit pin.

 

So - potential solutions:

1- narrow the mast step so that there is room laterally between the mast step and well wall for the opening of the pump in the location indicated on the plan

2- seat the topsail bit pin on top of the beam instead of behind it, like the jeer bits (not what is indicated in the plan)

3- put the pump where it is indicated on the plan even though it sits on top of the mast step given that you can't see into the well anyway

 

None of these seem right - any suggestions?

 

thanks!

 

Dave

[paulsutcliffe]

I think the elm tree pumps angle backwards and inwards slightly as they go downwards to end behind the mast step and inbetween  the step and main pumps at the side of the keel

The elm pumps aren't shown on the first profile picture you posted, that I can see

Hope that helps

Regards

Paul

[davec]

Hi Paul - very helpful.  I had assumed that the elm pump was straight up and down when viewed from the side like the chain pumps, but I'm not sure why I made that assumption.  The chain pumps are vertical, which would probably be important so that the axis for the cranks would be parallel to the deck.  This wouldn't be critical for the elm tree pump, where the pump handle could just be angled.  Still leaves me with two questions:

 

If this is the case, it seems like the pump shaft would have been angled forward, with the opening between the front of the mast step and front wall of the well, as opposed to behind the step.  This is a clearer path and would allow for some redundancy as it seems like it would decrease the likelihood of the chain and elm pumps both being blocked at the same time.  The drawing that came with Ed Tosti's Naiad book shows the shaft angled this way, and will be the approach I probably take.

 

When I look at the Swan class book, it says the chain pump opens between frames 3 fore and 3 aft, which is at the corner of the mast step.  It still makes me wonder if the pump should end up just lateral to the corner of the step.  I have about 5" scale clearance here, and about 3" more would have allowed the pump shaft to be vertical in the fore and aft direction.

 

Your information very appreciated as it gives me a solution that doesn't involve huge amounts of rework and still looks accurate.  I didn't have the NMM plans when I installed the well, and may have installed it slightly aft of where it should be.  The difference is very small, but has led to being off on the relationships between upper and lower deck beams, which need to be really precise for the bitts to be vertical.  Now that the elm pump location is solved, I think I can work with what I have and move forward again, as I can locate the upper deck beams in reasonable locations.  The only thing I will need to redo is the upper deck main mast partners, as the upper deck beams will be a few scale inches further apart than originally planned.  I built it in boxwood, and want most of the things that would have been painted in swiss pear, so I needed to do this anyways.

 

Thanks!
Dave

 

 

[paulsutcliffe]

NO problem, glad to help, the elm pump definitely goes inside the well, mine rubbed the top of the well as it went down and backwards and also cuts in the side of the mast partner very slightly, you have already cut the octaganol holes ready for the tops so they will slant a little more but should still fit, I placed pins down by the keel as per ed's naiad and had no choice where they came out

Regards

Paul

[davec]

I just finished the redo.  With the elm pump angled, it fits just fine.  I cut the openings in the deck planks before I glued them in.  Cutting 3 rectangular holes (chain pump and two bitt pins) and an octagon in the same two planks over the space of about 1 1/2" was a little finicky, but I think I have it.  will start work on the upper deck shortly.  Just checked out your Sirius - not sure how I missed it before - spectacular, as is the cutter.

 

thanks!

 

Dave

[paulsutcliffe]

Thankyou

[davec]

Another six months slipped by.  Someplace in there the upper deck got framed, and the main hatch and grating built.

 

In the interim, my wife and I embraced out empty nester status and bought a new shipyard in the city.  I’m giving up the yard and commute, and looking forward to an extra hour a day potentially spent in the workshop instead of the car.  The house has a full basement, about a third of which will be the new shop.  It is a little smaller than my current space, but it is mostly one big room, so hopefully the space will be more usable. It is a 1913 row house that hasn’t been renovated in decades.   We aren’t doing the work ourselves, but just making all the decisions and picking out the materials for an almost down to the studs renovation/restoration has been pretty consuming.  We are hoping to be moving in a few months. 

 

I’m having a little more time for the cross section, and hope to have the bitts installed and upper deck planked shortly.

 

Dave

[MEDDO]

Great progress Dave!