BANYAN

You're making great progress mate; looks good. cheers Pat

I think you have nailed it Dave, some ships I believed had fixed stanchions, but others removeable - the manropes were only fitted as required and usually had a Walkers Knot in the top end that went through the upper ring. cheers Pat

Love the planning you put into these micro builds Glen; looks like you have a winner here. cheers Pat

The boats etc turned out nicely, a lot better than those metal things. More goodies to play with; must be your birthday cheers Pat

we must have crossed in the ether Rob - great minds think alike (well your's might be great at least). cheers Pat

Wow, fitting the rails makes a real difference. That looks great! cheers Pat

Rob, in a similar idea to that offered by NIc, also try some very thin wire as a leader, as it is stiffer than thread. It could be a single strand from the multi-core electrical wire but must be thin. I use ni-chrome wire as it is a little stronger; I simply double it through the leading link of the chain - it is thin enough for for both ends of the wire to easily pass through the block , fairlead etc. cheers Pat

OK, based on the suggestions received, I have gone back though my sources. From what I can see, no contemporary nor more modern authors discuss any sort of a mechanism, resulting in some conjecture in the probable fit. The mechanism will have had to be easy to operate or rig/unrig and of an uncomplicated design. Having swung the boom clear, the crane would then have to be cleared away from the obstacle zone. Accordingly, the first of the best two options being that the entire assembly (crane) could be shipped or unshipped from dedicated fittings or brackets on the hull. This arrangement may have been as simple as horseshoe shaped mating brackets to receive the upper and lower ends of the inner part of the bracket, and locked in place with pins. Whatever the design, the receiving brackets or bolts, and the inner upright part of the crane will have been designed to sit flush against the hull to stop the crane swinging. It was then simply shipped/unshipped as required. The alternative method would be to swing the crane forward or aft out of the way. Again, the crane would need to mate with brackets on the hull, but in this design will have been round spigots, to allow the assembly to swing. This arrangement will have required some form of guys to be fitted which are not evident in any of the imagery and has therefore been discounted. This works, and the added benefit I don't have to try and correct the fitting I have made, as at this scale, the shoes/receivers would be nigh invisible. However, I am still contemplating adding a thin bit of strip brass to the upper end of the upright part of the crane to simulate the upper shoe/bracket. cheers, and many thanks again to all - the power and value of this site is well demonstrated with the excellent exchange of info and suggestions. Pat

Thanks for the follow-on comments Keith, John and Roger; I think you guys may be onto something there. The boom did indeed swivel in two axis (horizontal and upward to a limited degree). I did not attempt this and have only modelled the horizontal axis - yep you can flay me later The actual swivel joint probably looked like the following, but could have been a simple angled rod (older type) which I have used. Image from The Century Dictionary by WD Whitney 1911. Now if the boom could be got out of the way quickly, the idea of a hinged crane bracket would do the trick. The model I have used uses a rod gusset between the upright and horizontal bracket legs. Now, if this gusset was a simple rod that fitted into a retainer on the vertical leg, and into a hole in the horizontal leg, then it could be easily removed. Now if the horizontal part was hinged in near the ship's side, it could fold inward out of the way. Not ideal but workable; however I would not have much faith in the capacity of the lower bracket leg to secure the boom effectively if the topping lift did not have the weight. Even better might be Roger's idea. If the inner ends of the crane simply dropped into brackets (probably with forelocked pins, the whole assembly would swivel in out of the way. It is not like the crane is supporting a lot of weight; it is more a securing device. Now I really wish this issue had been more evident before I attached the current 'interpretation' of a crane to the model. As it was well and truely glued I think I will damage the model trying to take it off so will have to live with it. I think I will do the other side properly though. Thoughts/ideas? Many thanks again. Pat

Lots of new toys to play with Knocklouder - enjoy; as you mention the hardest part is getting the invoice past the bean counters A suggestion, perhaps consider countersinking the heads of those nails holding the mitre box secure so that they are flush with the base otherwise the wider planks may not sit flat for cutting. From the photo hard to determine but you may already have done that. Good luck and happy building. cheers Pat

I had seen that John; thanks for your follow-up comment. I think the topping lift is the inner one that went to the top lug of the spiderband (about 2/3 of the way out). The other line (cannot recall at the moment) was led via a hole (fairlead) in the bulwark just forward of the chestree (you can see the hole I have left for that in my post 846 earlier - it needs a little more refinement yet). This was done a while ago, and perhaps should have been placed a little closer to the chestree. What looks like the extension of the line to the end of the boom I think is perhaps the upper part of the crane? It is certainly on the same level for that perception to be made?) I think the illusion of it being the topping lift may just be a quirk caused by the aspect the photograph was taken from, and the lack of resolution in the photo. I could be wrong with this entirely, so remain open to all suggestions and possibilities. A 'puzzlement" indeed cheers Pat

Hi all, again my sincere thanks for the ongoing suggestions and comments - it all helps. This is a little long but the only way to fully explain the detail of the dilemma - sorry. Tony, many thanks for images which aligns with, and sort of confirms the imagery I have. John and Druxey, many thanks - more food for thought. The imagery is inconclusive but I have found the lithographs to be quite accurate and faithful to how she was fitted and rigged (based on the Specification and Rigging Warrant). The images are mainly of her in harbour where typically the booms would be typically fitted ready for use as boat booms. The only clear (ish) image of her under sail does show the boom fitted/rigged while at sea but is a little indistinct. This is a crop of the Lithograph which I have marked up to show the main issues. John, the plans do not show a crane (but I only have an original sheer drawing), but there is a non-associated comment within the Specification that sort of alludes to them. The following images show a large (standing proud of the ship's side) crane the painter has depicted (circled) on which I have based my initial attempt. While clear in the lithograph, it isn't so clear in the photo but on close inspection it can be made out. As you can see, the boat definitely overhangs the end of the boom by some distance. Even allowing for the aspect distortions (painted with artist viewing from fine on the stbd bow - the photo is taken from about the same aspect I think) there are a couple of issues with the depiction (but I am allowing for some artistic licence ). Firstly, according to all of the contemporary and more modern authors, the boom should start near the start of the fore channel (not about half way back as depicted in the lithograph) - this is more evident (the use of the near fore edge) in the only photograph of the full ship. Also, the end of the boom extends too far back in the lithograph. I have made my boom IAW the proportion rules offered by Kipping and Fincham (contemporary Naval Architects) which also conforms with the Specification. The imagery also confirms the boat davit positions forward of the funnel and chestree (with the crane) so I am not concerned with the location and lengths/sizes of the various items; simply concerned with the bow overhanging and getting in the way of the cutter-lifeboat bows. Druxey, unfortunately my concern with your arrangement would mean transferring the weight of the of the boat entirely to the other tackle negating the practicality/fit of the davits in the first place. So my quest continues; cheers Pat

I love your sort of 'crazy' popeye2sea. cheers Pat

I think Jim (Byrnes Model Machines) and Chris Watton have hit the nail on the head - in many cases we should not blame the retailer (in our hobby many are smaller operators such as Chris and Chuck). Rather we should be all putting pressure on the 'greedy' postal services, I take every opportunity when they ask for feedback to give them my 'opinion' (well they asked for it ). We have the same problem here in Australia - ever since the Government put AustPost on a 'profit' driven path they are more interested in making money than delivering a quality service. They have doubled (or more) their delivery times rather than hire more staff; but (and the real kicker) the prices have increased - all so that their executives can be given fancy gifts and bonuses (this in a Government service??). This is the main cause of many good businesses losing international (and some internal) trade. I used to recommend several overseas sources for model related products to new modellers, but now it is just not cost effective to buy these items. I have stopped buying many products unless I can get it/them in Australia as the international shipping costs are now ridiculous (its bad enough for internal postage) - sometimes that means I have to do without and find another solution or product. There are still a very few niche businesses overseas that I will go to (such as Chuck for rope and special blocks), but that is about it. The over zealous profit driven attitude of the postal services (here and overseas) is going to be the ruin of many good business and hobbyists. That said, there are also some businesses that take the opportunity to gouge the customer as has been described (WRT to P&H). These practices are all contributing (along with the general loss of interest in the hobby) in the decline of our fine hobby. I'll stop my rant now Pat

Love the stretching/holding frame - sometimes the simplest ideas are the best (but one has first to think of them ;)) - thanks Keith. cheers Pat

Thanks for the comments and the likes folks, much appreciated. Eberhard: Stowing them inboard is certainly an option; however, most authors imply they were permanently rigged. Unshipping would also avoid the need of trying to properly secure them for sea. They certainly were used as the boat booms in harbour; and I am contemplating whether to show one of them swung out and rigged with painters, lizards and jackobs ladders. Keith: thanks for the suggestion. All authors agree they were stowed parallel with the fore channel. If unshipped they were probably stowed inboard so need to give this a little more thought; although, it is possible they were stowed in the channels which sort of aligns with your thoughts. The only problems I see with that though, is that the imagery suggests they were stowed in-situ, and, on the stbd side, would have competed for space in the channels with the stream anchor. Roger: yep, in the RAN we followed the same practices - as the anchor was let go, the call came "out boats and booms" which had to be done smartly. We did the same with having a boat ready to go at sea with the skipper having a real penchant to test how quick we could do it - there was a fleet standard that had to be met. This tested the whole system from the Officer of the Watch through to the duty swimmer and boat crew. However in Victoria it is more likely the whale boat, which was a better sea boat (especially when pulled), was used as the 'sea boat' - this was on the stbd davits further aft (near the mizen). I have yet to search the logs and journals thoroughly for this type of information. All that said, the lifeboats would still need to be easily lowered in case of emergency. Thanks again all; this is now a question of rigged or stowed inboard. I am leaning towards the latter. This is another example of the real value of this forum - the willingness of people to help and offer advice. cheers Pat

That is going to be one very interesting looking diorama (of sorts) when completed Glen; such an unusual subject. Hopefully the test fit and unrig will go well. cheers Pat

Ok folks, a small update after a longer than planned shutdown in the dockyard (while I got my act together again) I've started putting the lower studding/swing boom together, and in doing so, I have discovered a little bit of a dilemma. First here is the boom (for the eagle eyed; yep the clamp on the end of the boom crane was crooked - since adjusted. Now the dilemma, once I have fitted the boat davits, the bows of the cutter-lifeboats will hang over the after end of the boom (including the crane). The crane is in the right place, as is the length/size of the boom. The boat davits are placed according to the drawings and all the imagery. The iron crane is a crutch, fitted to chestrees on the hull, that hold the after ends of the boom and secures it when not in use. They are scaled for 3" wide iron a 3/8 inch thick. It sticks out from the ship's side quite a bit to allow the boom to lay parallel with the edge of the fore channel. As such it will be about in line with the keel of the cutter lifeboats. The davits did not swing out, nor were they set-up to swivel. The groove in the cap rail just forward of the chestree in the last photo shows the fore davit arm position. Therefore - how were the lowered past the cranes? The only solution I have so far is that the boom would have to be swung out or lifted, and the crane taken in, but there is no mention in the contract, nor any evidence in the Specification or imagery that they were designed that way. One possible alternative is that the crane was not fitted and the booms were simply lashed in place, allowing the boom to be moved when the boats were to be used (but in time of emergency, would you really want to be faffing around with that?) Any ideas? Ugh, the close-up photography certainly shows all the blemishes I have to fix cheers Pat

Enjoying her coming together Rob; a truly splendid model. cheers Pat

Hi. Where possible I try to use genuine knots and seizings, or at least simulated versions of them (the simulated versions may miss a couple of steps in tying the real knot). For example I try use a form of the 'common' whipping, reef knots on ratlines, figure of 8s on cleats, pins etc, proper coils for rope ends, etc etc. However, based on the scale you are using, it is sometimes impossible to do this, so I use a knot/finish, that when finished, looks a little the same as the typical real life knot. This is possible as generally there is not a lot of tension on model ship lines that require the benefits of using the real knot. For my purposes I have found you do not have to use many types of knots. cheers Pat

Your time away to recover has certainly not diminished your skills Eberhard; looks great! cheers Pat

It's always good to take a pause when things start to get on top of what you are doing; it allows you to adjust and come back better - good luck Bob. Those who visit my log will see that I have also taken a break from the dockyard; I only just got back there seriously in the last few days, and oh boy, am I rusty - the Foreman told me in no uncertain terms and language to pull my britches up Take your time, the model and slipway will still be there when you are ready. cheers Pat

Great to see your update Bitao, I was missing them. cheers Pat

The more experienced may offer a better answer, but I think in real life some were and some weren't; BUT some modellers don't include them. It is possible some of the lines that rig through blocks on the yards (leech, bunts etc) were left in place if the sails were unbent for temporary/short periods, but the lower sail control lines such as the bowlines were stowed and rigged when sails were bent. I look forward to the answers and updates you receive. cheers Pat

Keep persevering mate; and don't be afraid to re-ask questions. Most on this forum are a patient lot. Can I ask how you are cutting the butt ends of your plank. You may need to make a jig of sorts to help you with this. A simple jig would allow you to cut consistent lengths, squared at the ends, and also allow you to consistently drill the tree nail holes. Give me a PM if you need more info. cheers Pat