HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[druxey]

It is a very tricky area indeed, Mark. On my 64, I had to also carve a shallow rabbet on the inner side of that aftermost wale piece so that the bottom plank below it could curve around smoothly and in contact with the frames. Whether this was exactly what was done in full-size practice I cannot say, but seems reasonable. There was still a small triangular gap that was filled with a piece of plank outboard of the last bottom plank.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey, that confirms for me that I am on the right track. This is definitely a spot that is less than gracefully worked out, in the big scheme of design. I think a lot of fiddling had to go into reconciling the various parts that intersect here. I have noticed that on some other ships, the lower edge of the wales align exactly with the trim across the lower end of the counter, making the junctions below this easier to reconcile. Look at Siggi's nice junction at this spot, for example, on the 1745 Establishment ship.

But for some reason, the Bellona drops the wales partly below this, causing them to run partly into the counter, and partly into the very complex compound curves below. This has to be the point where the construction crew asks "what the [insert favorite explicative here] was the shipwright thinking here?"

 

Mark

[druxey]

Well, I can't definitively say it's the right track, but it does work!

[SJSoane]

Just for fun, I looked again at the photos I took of the 1st Bellona model. It shows the lowest, aftmost plank of the wales curving around under the stern, like the planking presumably would do below it. This is not consistent with the original Admiralty sheer plan, nor with the 2nd Bellona model with the copper sheathing. I will have to assume that this was a modeler's convenience, dealing with the reality of skeletal planking in this portrayal of the ship. Unless anyone has seen a wale curve under the counter like this.

 

Mark

[druxey]

Models that I've seen usually do not curve around quite so much. However, do you notice that triangular piece seen on the stern view? It sits on the outer end of the wing transom. Is this a separate piece or is it cut into the aft end of that wale plank? If the latter, this is something new (at least, to me!).

[SJSoane]

hi druxey,

 

Well spotted, I never noticed that. Could it be the little corner of planking just above the chain circled in red below? If so, the wale in the first model has wrapped much further around the corner than in the second model. In the second model below, the triangular plank hits the inner side of a much thicker wale at an obtuse angle, and could not be confused for a smooth continuation of the wale plank as in the first model.

 

Mark

[Mark P]

Good Evening everyone;

 

If you look at the stern planking picture in the post of a 'Swan' Class ship in the CAD forum,  drawn by someone who is surely a computer imaging genius,  you will see exactly the same planking layout as appears on the Bellona model above.

 

Short sections of triangular planking to fill the space between the bottom end of the wale,  and the underside of the counter (tuck) moulding.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited April 10, 2018 by Mark P

[druxey]

I agree, Mark P. However, my question is; is this a separate piece of bottom plank, or shaped from the aft end of that wale plank?

[Mark P]

Evening Druxey;

 

I think that it is actually not part of the planking at all,  but the end of one of the model's ribbands,  and so only a temporary piece (although it's been there several hundred years!)

 

OOPS! Apologies! Just looked at it again,  and it is clearly part of the wale.  Is the appearance of a joint close to the end just a trick of the light,  though?

 

In the CAD picture it is certainly a separate piece,  which would seem the most logical.  It is,  of course,  not necessarily contemporary practice.  I will look at some of my photos of contemporary models,  and post anything which seems to shed light on this point.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited April 10, 2018 by Mark P

[Mark P]

Evening all;

 

See attached a picture of 'Endymion'  44 guns,  from the Royal Collection at Kew Palace

 

This shows a triangle of planking.  It has to be a separate piece,  as the wale would be very thick if it was part of it.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Mark, this is a very helpful view. I think it confirms where my hull seems to be taking me. The wale is revealed at full thickness at the aftmost end where it is vertical and hits the lower counter, but shows only 3-4" along its lower edge where the lower planking is parallel to the wale and abutting against it.

 

The triangular plank we have been discussing looks like a transition piece, itself standing at right angles to the wale at the top, but allowing the lower planking to come from parallel to right angles to the wale as it bends around the corner.

 

The attached drawing shows how perhaps a rabbet would provide a landing for the small triangular piece, where the rabbet would be narrow at the top and increasingly wide at the bottom. This is a difficult drawing to visualize; it tries to line up with the perspective of Mark P's image above.

 

This would be a fairly elegant solution to reconciling all of these at this corner, as best as one might expect given the complexities.

 

Mark

[druxey]

Thank you, Mark and Mark. (This is getting confusing!) The sketch just above reflects exactly the route I took with Polyphemus. It worked out nicely. As Resolution was a much 'boxier' shape, two pieces were required to fill the triangular gap, as shown.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey and Mark P, I think we have resolved how this complex junction is managed. The Bellona sheer drawing shows a larger radius curve at the lower, aft corner of the wale, and from the way things are lining up on the hull, I think it is because of the natural curve of the plank immediately below the wale. At least that is how it seems to be emerging as I try to fair these pieces.

 

druxey, I see your wale does tuck under at the lowest, aft corner; this is reassuring, because mine really looks like it wants to tuck under. Mark P's image shows a wale more straight up and down. I am sure this has entirely to do with the particular geometries of the under body for each ship.

 

The famous architect Lou Kahn once asked, "what do you want, brick?", to determine how to use it according to its own inherent nature. I would apply this to wales at this point: "wale, how do you want to follow the natural lines of your hull?" Apologies for weird thinking...

 

And by the way, beautiful model of the Resolution, druxey!

 

Mark

[druxey]

Thank you, Mark. Hopefully the question is now resolved and that you will get a nicely faired result as well. BTW, you almost fooled me with your draught (above): at first I thought I was looking at a contemporary drawing! Very neatly done.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey. By the way, do I see a thickened plank under the Resolution's wale that does not extend all the way to the aft end of the wale? And does the wale thin down at the point the lower plank terminates? I have never seen that before, if am seeing it correctly.

 

Mark

[AON]

On 03/11/2017 at 7:56 PM, Mark P said:

 

A further item of interest,  and apparently a very rare survivor,  is ADT0253,  a rigging warrant for HMS Monarch,  1765.  This lists every conceivable piece of rope for the whole ship:  its diameter,  length,  and associated block type and size.  It was used for the issue of rigging stores from the dockyard,  when the rigging of the ship was set up after launching.  I don't remember ever seeing this referred to in any book,  rather strangely,  as it is very important for anyone rigging a 74.

Good morning Mark,

I followed up on the above post of yours.  It took quite a while to get all the information which condenses to the following:

The document is 6 pages, 10" x 16", at 70 pounds sterling each plus VAT (tax) and shipping. They only offer photos at this time due to the age and condition of them. Photocopying might cause more damage .... however they are digitizing the documents and digital copies may be available in a year or so at reduced pricing.

[druxey]

That 'thickened plank' you see under and on the wale was additional girdling that was applied to Resolution when she was fitted for the Navy in 1772-3. Even though she was a boxy collier, I suppose a question of her stability arose. You can see this feature better in the starboard broadside view.

[SJSoane]

Hi Alan, thank you so much for following up on the rigging warrant. £420 for the 6 pages exceeds my retirement discretionary income, so I will have to wait until a hopefully cheaper digital copy comes out in the next year or so. I have a way to go before rigging seriously comes into my project, so the timing might work out OK. Do you know how I would find out if and when it is digitized?

 

druxey, that is fascinating to see, thank you. I had read about girdling (mostly in Patrick O'Brian books), but this is the first I have seen what that looks like. Presumably, this simply increases the girth of the hull, providing more lateral stability and less roll. It doesn't seem like a few inches would do much, but multiplied by the length, that is probably a lot of additional bouyancy at midships. I wish I understood more about the science of hull shapes.

 

Mark

[Mark P]

Alan,  I am sad to hear that they are charging such silly prices.  Presumably they mean that someone has to take it out and photograph it.  That kind of money would start a small film studio,  though.  Especially in this digital age,  when no-one has to develop or print it.

 

With regard to girdling,  it dates back at least to the mid 1600s,  and was commonly resorted to when a ship failed to float as high in the water as expected after launching.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[AON]

It is quite a chunk of money!

Too bad we didn't know about it back when they were offering photocopies.

I suppose a reminder in outlook on your computer might work (if you still have the same computer by then).

[SJSoane]

Hi everyone,

 

It has been a long time since the last post. We had 11 groups of friends and family come to visit us in our retirement this spring and summer, and however nice it was to see them all, it sure killed any momentum I had going on the Bellona. No work at all this summer.

 

I also took some time away from the Bellona to build a plastic model of an LCVP (Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel) for my father's 95th birthday. He is seen with the sidearm in the first photo, with an LCVP in the background. 

 

Back to the Bellona, I picked up where I left off, finishing the lower two strakes of the port wale. Too clever for my own good, I steamed the foremost two strakes together, thinking I could clamp them into the fixture at the same time. I pulled the long one out, and then discovered the shorter one had slid back in the steamer. By the time I fished it out, the first one had cooled to the point that when I tightened up the clamps on the fixture, I heard a loud crack. Missed my window of plasticity in the steamed wood, and had to make the two strakes all over. One always learns from mistakes; now I know how long that window is...

 

I did finally figure out how to clamp these lower strakes, which had given me so much trouble on the starboard side because I could not get a fore-aft clamp to them (the gundeck behind is in the way of a clamp). This time, I fastened a batten across the building board, and used this to restrain the feet of several vertical boards. When the tops were clamped against the hull, their middles pulled the wales snug against the hull.

 

I hope to make more progress this fall, now the snows are threatening.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

[dvm27]

Very clever, Mark. It's a very hard area to apply clamping pressure to.

[mtaylor]

Great to see you and Bellona back, Mark.  The LCVP looks like it would be a build-log all by itself.

[Hubac's Historian]

You’ve been missed, Mark!  Glad to see you working again.  Interesting, the breaking point;  was it an area of grain run-out,  looking along the edge of the plank?

 

Anyway, nice clamping work-arounds.  She’s coming into form very nicely, indeed!

[druxey]

Sorry about the mishap, Mark, but good to see you back. We've missed you and Bellona. One needs to be very creative about clamping methods at times! Nice solution.

 

What a nice gesture and model for your father!

[AON]

Happy to see you are back.

I completely understand the impact of summer distractions and the need for short term diversions.  Wonderful pic of your dad.

Looking forward to continuing to follow your progress.

BZ

Alan

Edited November 4, 2018 by AON

[gjdale]

Nice to see you back Mark, and some very clever clamping there!

[SJSoane]

Greg, Grant and druxey, thanks for the comments about clamping. I don't know why I could not come up with such a simple idea the first time around. It seemed obvious after getting away from the problem for six months.

 

Mark, I did not think to photograph the LCVP build, probably should have. It was a nice break to have the parts already made, just needing assembly and painting. 

 

Hubac's Historian, I looked at the split more closely after your comment, and as you can see below, it did not split along the grain which is running mostly parallel to the piece. It split on a diagonal across the grain, which perhaps makes sense because I understand a failure in bending wood will always result from the fibers in tension on the outside of the curve letting go. Some steaming techniques at full scale have a compression strap on the outside to prevent this.

 

Also, I notice that it broke at the point of the hooked scarph shoulder (see unbroken one beside it). I vaguely remember an architectural structures class that said failures will tend to occur at the points of discontinuity in the material, and this seems to confirm it. I may have this wrong, if any engineers want to correct me.

 

I also noticed that this particular piece is the longest in the wales, at  37' by 6" by 1'-9" at its widest. Can you imagine how they hoisted the real thing out of a steaming box and clamped it onto the hull before the plasticity disappeared?  Working at scale continues to make me appreciate the complexity and craftsmanship of the real things.

 

Druxey and Alan, thanks for the comments about my father. He was only 21 at the time, and three quarters of a century later he could still recall vivid details of his service in the LCVPs, some prompted by looking at the model! 

 

Mark

 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Welcome back Mark,

 

You should build at 1/24 scale!

 

It is a lot easier to do the planking in the curves with 0 stress on the planks,

 

The plank is cut in 3D including the curve, the only drawback: it takes more wood.

[druxey]

At 1:24 I imagine a lot more wood, Gaetan!