Need advice bending .5mm strips

[Gremreeper1967]

I have attached two pictures; on showing where I am at now and the problem I have. The second picture shows what I am thinking about doing. 

Basically my problem is bending the .5mm strips so much and not breaking them. Any suggestions, ideas or comments are welcome.

[Captain Poison]

If you see the marks that you have made, the measurements are different (from high to low towards the bow), unfortunately the way you have done it, if you don't want to start again, to save the work you should cut the planks as they get closer to the bow in an almost triangular shape ..

If you see the line in black that would be the way to continue and thus be able to place them without breaking planks.

 

Another method would be to use drop plank (Chuck's image for his Winchelsea) as shown in the image or use the fan for planking.

plankingfan.pdf

[Gremreeper1967]

Captain Poison, I am currently using the fan to Mark the plank widths down the length of the hull but I have a vertical, for lack of better words, bend at the arrow and that is where they are breaking due to the bowing. 

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Gremreeper - Unfortunately I don't think there is a magic, secret solution to your problem.  Wood strip, even as thin as 0.5mm just wont really bend in multiple directions readily, you don't mention whether you have tried soaking the planks or not, if not, then worth a try.  Other than that, I think CaptPoison's suggestion to use a drop plank terminating in the area of the bulge is something worth pursuing.  Another option would be to try and first heat bend a strip using a hairdryer to give a strip a slight curve across the width of the plank, and then try to fit on the curve of the hull, this may be sufficient to prevent breakage.

 

And, if you haven't already, strongly recommend reading the planking tutorials as they are pretty comprehensive and provide great information on approaching this tricky step.

[Gremreeper1967]

1 hour ago, Beef Wellington said:

Hi Gremreeper - Unfortunately I don't think there is a magic, secret solution to your problem.  Wood strip, even as thin as 0.5mm just wont really bend in multiple directions readily, you don't mention whether you have tried soaking the planks or not, if not, then worth a try.  Other than that, I think CaptPoison's suggestion to use a drop plank terminating in the area of the bulge is something worth pursuing.  

 

 

Beef Wellington, the soaking and trying to bend across it's self is how I normally plank as needed. This is my first opportunity to use such a thin plank and may be over nervous. Thank you and Captain Poison for the advice.

[VTHokiEE]

2 hours ago, Gremreeper1967 said:

I have a vertical, for lack of better words, bend at the arrow and that is where they are breaking due to the bowing

Have you taken a look at edge bending the planks? I believe it addresses this situation very well.

 

 

[tomwilberg]

Robert Volk propagates a technique to avoid this situation:

before planking fill in the space between the bulkheads with wood blocks, that you sand in place in the exact form needed to form the inner hull. The result is a clean hull form you may put the planking on without breaking the planks. Let’s say the result is usually better than the traditional planking just on the relatively small bulkhead surfaces and by far better defined.

 

Robert: may be you could post some illustrations here?

 

Greetings

Thomas

[Gremreeper1967]

1 hour ago, VTHokiEE said:

Have you taken a look at edge bending the planks? I believe it addresses this situation very well.

 

 

VTHokiEE, That is the process I am using. My plans are. 5mm x 4mm and I am unable to get the bed needed.

[VTHokiEE]

16 minutes ago, Gremreeper1967 said:

VTHokiEE, That is the process I am using. My plans are. 5mm x 4mm and I am unable to get the bed needed.

Ah, sorry, what type of wood is it? Some are much more flexible than others unfortunately. How big is the taper at that point?

[Gremreeper1967]

2 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

Ah, sorry, what type of wood is it? Some are much more flexible than others unfortunately. How big is the taper at that point?

VTHokiEE, I'm not exactly sure what type of wood it is. There is nothing in the plans with that info. The taper is just 1mm. I tried soaking the pieces for about 20 minutes but ended up breaking another one. I'm about at my wit's end. I have attached a close up of the wood, maybe someone knows what kind it is.

[VTHokiEE]

Could be walnut. I have felt that frustration before and needed to step away from my build when I was breaking things.

 

How hot is the water that you are using? Using boiling water, or maybe steam, might help the situation slightly. I haven't tried this but maybe you could bend the wood a little, then add more water/heat and bend it further.

 

I have a second thought as well. Are you below the waterline? If so maybe you could consider swapping the planks with a more flexible wood since it will be painted white regardless?

[Bob Cleek]

Store-bought or kit-supplied strip wood isn't "pre-cut planking." Each plank must be spiled (its shape developed and cut to shape) before it's hung. You can get away hanging strips like you were hanging siding on a flat house wall for some distance, depending upon the shape of the hull, but the error is cumulative, as you've now discovered. Hanging un-shaped strip wood on a hull shape as you've done will always result in the problem you are now having. The wood breaks because it has to. It won't break if it is shaped to fit properly. 

 

Sometimes you can economize on wood by heat-bending a piece of strip wood across its width, as in the videos by Chuck Passaro above. Those "edge-set" planks still must  be spiled to ensure that the plank widths are correct at each station and bow and stern such that the curve of the seam is fair. Watch the videos and then read the planking tutorials on the forum's "Articles Database." 

[Tony Hunt]

I wonder about the planking stock you are using too. Quite apart from the wood species (some being bendier than others) if it is 0.5mm thick it may well be peeled veneer, rather than sawn veneer. The problem with peeled veneer is that the peeling process (imagine a giant plane) creates a "tight" surface and a "loose" surface. The loose surface contains lots of transverse micro-cracks, which might increase it's breakability.

[PopDavid]

Definitely soak the strips in water.  One hour minimum, I have read that some people soak their strips overnight.  Experiment for best results.  A plank bending iron is handy.  I have also used an adjustable temperature Mono-coat iron, (RC plane covering material).  Look at the planking forum listed on the Home page.  Also, any number of good books on model building and planking are available.  Spilling the planks already mentioned.

[mtaylor]

The problem that I see is that it's walnut.  Not very flexible and with a lot of grain.  Typical kit wood.  From the hull photo the other day, you should probably use the recommended drop plank.

[Gremreeper1967]

10 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

I wonder about the planking stock you are using too. Quite apart from the wood species (some being bendier than others) if it is 0.5mm thick it may well be peeled veneer, rather than sawn veneer. The problem with peeled veneer is that the peeling process (imagine a giant plane) creates a "tight" surface and a "loose" surface. The loose surface contains lots of transverse micro-cracks, which might increase it's breakability.

Tony Hunt, you are correct, the strips are veneer.

[Gremreeper1967]

12 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

 "edge-set" planks still must  be spiled to ensure that the plank widths are correct at each station and bow and stern such that the curve of the seam is fair. Watch the videos and then read the planking tutorials on the forum's "Articles Database." 

Bob Clerk, how would you spile a 4mm plank? Are you referring to the tapering to the widths calculated for each station?

[Gremreeper1967]

8 hours ago, mtaylor said:

The problem that I see is that it's walnut.  Not very flexible and with a lot of grain.  Typical kit wood.  From the hull photo the other day, you should probably use the recommended drop plank.

Mtaylor, I tried that yesterday but I was a bit frustrated so I will give it another go.

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, Gremreeper1967 said:

Bob Cleek, how would you spile a 4mm plank? Are you referring to the tapering to the widths calculated for each station?

Yes, exactly. For a 4mm plank width at the maximum beam, the tapering might be a bit tedious, but given the hull shapes of large vessels, as opposed to small craft, the tapering would be slight and generally at the ends of the vessel, particularly the bows. Remember when modeling that there is a scale to the length of planking as well as to its width. Plank stock isn't ever much more than 24 feet long in real life, given the limitations of tree size and handling. Given a scale plank width of 4mm at the maximum beam, there would be a lot of full length unspiled 4mm planks amidships, so that makes an easier job of it for the planker. (There are also standards for the spacing of plank butts which must be followed for an accurate scale planking job.) Keep in mind also that if the average plank width admidships is 4mm, when planking properly, there will be planks which may need to be wider than the average 4mm plank width to make everything come together without the need for "stealers." Kit manufacturers provide a bunch of pre-cut, square, finished on all four sides, strips for "planking." That stock isn't going to be suitable for all the planking at the size provided because planks aren't square.

 

You can find instructions for laying out plank in the "articles" section of the forum, so I won't repeat them here. However, if you lay out your planking at stem, stern, and each station (or perhaps every other, or even every three, frames or stations, depending upon hull shape and frame spacing,) You'll see that there's not much plank shaping to be done in the "wide open spaces" amidships.

 

If you divide the plank end widths equally at the bows, you should get a fair run on your plank seams and not end up trying to bend a "hook" in your plank seams. And sometimes plank width divisions vary, depending upon hull shape. A band of narrower planks at the turn of the bilge and wider planks (called "broads") in runs over "flat" areas is not uncommon. (In the drawing of the period planked hull below, note the "broads" below the turn of the bilge and running up to the stern post.) Planks in real life are gotten out of wider stock than the average plank width at the maximum beam. Plank stock in full size construction is often "flitch cut," meaning that it is cut as a rough slab sawn from the log, leaving the bark attached. These "flitches" are often slightly curved, as the log grew, which permits sawing out the curved plank shape to make best use of the run of the grain and lumber available. Planks are never bent across their width in full size construction, which is pretty much impossible anyway. Sometimes, a plank will be a bit "shy" and the plankers will "edge set" it by wedging it into place against its mate to get a tight seam, but edge-setting is a sign of poor fitting (which introduces strains on fasteners which can then let go) and not considered "best practices." Specifications sometimes go so far as to state, "no plank shall be edge set." When modelling with small stock of a species which will tolerate such bending, considerable stock can be saved by bending scale planks across their width to simulate what would have been a "dear" (costly) plank that in real life would have had to be cut from a very wide flitch, leaving a lot of wasted wood. That's the genius in Chuck Passaro's edge bending technique described in his great videos on the subject. Even with Chuck's method, though, some planks are going to require their own unique shape.

 

The smaller the boat, the more the plank shape differences are exaggerated. The below illustration shows the plank shapes needed to plank the hull illustrated. Note that the sheer plank shape colored white is actually wider at its ends than at its middle. In your planking job, the lack of the same sort of greater width at the stem rabet created a cumulative deficit in plank width which eventually created the upwards "hook" that became greater than you could bend your strip wood to accommodate. Trying to continue to hang 4mm wide planks in that rabet would only increase the deficit. (See the drawing of the period wooden hull planking below to see how the old-time plankers solved the problem you've got now.)

 

 

On a large wooden ship, the planking curves are not as radical, but do require curves to accommodate the shape of the hull just the same. In large construction, owing to the natural limitations of available plank stock width, "hooked," "doubler," or "stealer" planks are used to plank wider spaces than the available stock permits being gotten out of a single flitch. If a model is to show the plank seams, it must be planked as was its prototype. (Of course, if the plank seams are to be filled and the hull sanded fair and painted, it doesn't matter what the planking run looks like.) Look carefully at the plank seams in the bow and stern quarter of the below illustration to see the use of "hooked," "doubler," or "stealer" planks. (There's a larger picture and good planking instructions in the attached link.)

 

 

 

 

https://www.modelerscentral.com/blog/planking-tips-for-building-a-model-ship/

 

Don't let this discourage you. Kit manufacturers have been frustrating modelers with strip wood "planking" since kits were invented.  

 

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Bob Cleek

[Gremreeper1967]

Bob Cleek, thank you for the info, it had been helpful and appreciated.

[Gremreeper1967]

One side almost completely planked. The other side is half way. 

[Louie da fly]

Looks like you've "nailed" it! (sorry for the pun). How about a close-up of the area of difficulty, as in your first post, for comparison? 

 

Looking good.

 

Steven

[Gremreeper1967]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Looks like you've "nailed" it! (sorry for the pun). How about a close-up of the area of difficulty, as in your first post, for comparison? 

 

Looking good.

 

Steven

It's not pretty but I won't make the same mistakes again.

[Louie da fly]

That's a good save. And a valuable addition to your knowledge and skill-set.

 

Steven

Edited April 5, 2020 by Louie da fly

[mtaylor]

I'm going to suggest you read the planking tutorials pinned at the top if this sub-forum. It'll save you a lot of problems on your next ship.

 

As for this one.. looks good.  A little sanding and she'll be good.

[M.R.Field]

When I used veneer (Swiss pear) to represent the 7 planks a side of the Riva Aquarama Special I scratchbuilt I had to shape them to a surprising degree. I did that by using Weetabix packets, which were exactly the same thickness as the pear veneer.  Then cut the veneer exactly to the shape I'd got on the cardboard. Finished off with a file to fair the edges of the veneer with a slight undercut, so a very hard edge was touching that on the next planks. The upshot was about as close as you can get to matching the amazing timber selection on the outer layer of the three from which Rivas are cold moulded.  Then epoxy put on with an old credit card, rub down then spar varnish.  And yes, I used a 10" 2nd cut hand file, but held the plank VERY tightly close to the edge and gently stroked the file along the plank.  With pear you can use metalworking tools almost exclusively.

 

Martin

[Jim CT]

Use a steam iron.  I put a towel on a freezer then steam the wood, not too much, and then gently pull the wood under the iron using the rounded top of the freezer to get the bend I want.  

[allanyed]

Jim,  What do you mean by a freezer?  Photos?   

Thanks

[Jim CT]

Sorry, we have a freezer in the basement and it has curved edges so I use that.  And slightly rounded metal or wood that doesn’t move will do.