Atlantica Sail training ketch by Wintergreen – Scale 1:30 - POF - A smack of English heritage

[Jim Lad]

That planking's coming along very nicely, Håkan.

 

John

[KeithAug]

Hakan, the framing and planking are looking pretty special. Excellent job so far. Sorry you didn’t all get together and I hope they are all well soon. There is always next Christmas.

[Wintergreen]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:19 AM, KeithAug said:

the framing and planking are looking pretty special

I hope that is expressed in a positive way, Keith 😉 (tongue in cheek). 😄

Thank you John, plodding along here.

 

Been sanding away here since last time. Not much to show.

Note to self - I need to learn how to build closer to specs or maybe it is my drafting skills that is lacking or maybe I should study the original plans more thoroughly. 

Or maybe it's all of the above.

 

It is about the moulded widths of the frames at the sheer line. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but moulded isn't that the athwart-ships dimension, like from the station line inwards right?).

After some measurements I've agreed on that dimension being 120 mm, or 4 mm to scale.

The frame tops that the shipwrights roughly has hewn from the stock was closer to 180 mm or 6 mm to scale.

Hence, Quite. a. Lot. Of. Sanding needed.

 

Maybe I should have chosen balsa instead of apple? Any takers?

The tree nails in the above picture is too prominent thanks to not being sanded flush. I've just chiseled them close at this stage.

I think I'm satisfied with port side and as prophesied earlier, starboard will get another treatment with 100-120-150-180-240 and finally 320 grit paper.

When the fingers needed a break from sanding I sat down and drew sticks of bamboo through the draw plate. Another mind boggling task (ha!).

 

But lately I have been grateful for these mundane tasks since today was the funeral of a very dear, and close friend. We sang in the same choir since 2008 until she no longer could sing a couple of years ago. Taken away way too early by ALS (like Borje Salming if you know your NHL hall of fame).

 

Pax et bonum!

[Keith Black]

 Sorry for the loss of your friend, my condolences. 

[Wintergreen]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

Sorry for the loss of your friend, my condolences. 

Thank you Keith. It was a long time coming, but it still hurts like crazy.

[KeithAug]

Im sorry to hear about your friend Hakan. life is a bit of a lottery and often it seems to be the better ones who draw the short straws. 

[Jim Lad]

Håkan,

 

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.  The good was in her life; the peace will come in time.

 

Yes, the moulded width is athwartships; sided width is fore and aft.

 

John

 

PS: Steer clear of balsa (except for packing a space full)

[mtaylor]

Lovely work on the model Håkan and very sad about your friend.  Sometimes live hands us smiles and other times a kick in the stomach.  John is right... at some point the piece will come.

[Jaager]

7 hours ago, Wintergreen said:

Maybe I should have chosen balsa instead of apple? Any takers?

Balsa is about the absolute worst species of wood for our uses.

Apple is about the best.  Almost impossible to find in quantity here. 

 

The moulded dimension is what is seen on the cross section view (Body plan).  Thickest at the keelson and thinnest at the rail.

All of the removal - but the shouting - should be done on the individual frame before adding it to the hull.

(Unless you are into self torture and frustration, you want all of frames to be as bends.  Bend = a pair of frames with timbers that overlap each butt joint of its partner. -  A raw end grain to end grain joint is a very weak bond. As in:  no bond at all.)

 

Sanding - grit matters.  Fast = course.  But then it must be walked down to smooth using ever finer grits.

 

A machine is faster.   For inside a hull - about the best machine that I have found is this:

https://www.kaleas.de//kaleas.cgi?action=show&sessionID=53362980167228376253362980&lang=en&page=shop-produktliste.html&cat=32&subcat=3230&catname=grinding, planing&arcode=x

 

But choose the Right Angle grinder.  Use very light force,  someone here had a part in the drive chain wear out.

There is a chuck attachment for the right angle unit for bits and burrs.

 

The belt sander ( comes up with the link) will REALLY eat wood fast - too fast if you are not careful - and it will quickly throw the belt - I hold it with a piece of flat scrap wood extending over the top part of the belt to keep it on.

 

https://www.kaleas.de//kaleas.cgi?action=show&sessionID=53362980167228376253362980&lang=en&page=shop-produktliste.html&cat=32&subcat=3280&catname=power supply&arcode=x

 

The DC power supply works with a variety of tools, but I am not sure very many are worth it when up against their single purpose competitors. 

 

 

 

 

[Wintergreen]

Thank you @Jaager for a serious answer to a silly question. 

I was joking about the balsa as an option. Please don't put me on your s**t-list for not being totally clear about that.

I am well aware of its shortcomings and its uses, which are few. Like you and John say - good for filler on POB builds but that's about it.

 

And yes, I did put myself in the hurt-locker with the frames being a bit oversize. So I knew all along what I had coming to me.

The outside of the hull was faired with power tools. Both my circular orbital sander and my orbital corner sander (sanding pad like a swollen triangle) made a somewhat quick job.

The inside is another matter and I have opted out for using power tools there. It would be far to easy to char areas unintentionally. Hence manual labour instead.

 

On a more philosophical level I try to balance my use of power tools for a couple of reasons.

They are for the most part noisy. (yes I do use hearing protection extensively but I appreciate the silence in my shop)

They produce a lot of dust and spreads it into the atmosphere (yes, I have a shop vac connected as far as possible, but still, it is not feasible at all times to connect a bulky hose)

I like working with my hands and f.ex. a sharp chisel removes wood fast and clean.

 

About sand paper or their alike. I agree there too with you Jaager.

Grit 100-120 is for removal. The rest of the spectrum is more or less to get rid of the scratches from the previous step. 

Of course, smaller things can be sanded to spec using 150-180, or even 240. But in my current case with the frames, even 80 could be an option to start with.

 

Thanks again for comments. 

 

[Jaager]

Hakan,

 

I got that the Balsa comment was meant in jest.  I apologize if my response came across as an insult.   I took it as an opportunity to broadcast another shot at that terrible species of wood out to the world.

 

In my mind,  I imagine that inside shaping frames that are widely spaced apart is a totally unfun procedure. 

I fill all of the spaces with Pine that is temporarily bonded.  The solid hull keeps the edges of the frames crisp and it is more difficult to remove too much while shaping and faring.   As I said in another thread,  I am still looking for an easy to remove temporary bonding agent that can stand up to the sheer forces of shaping and does not leave a tedious to remove residue, when I kill the bond after the fillers have done their job and I punch them out.

 

I will offer another shot.  Using Balsa as a filler for POB is probably one of those things that appear to be a useful idea, but later prove to be a bad one.   It is probably just as likely to crush as it is to cut, plane, or rasp.  The feel of working it is a bit creepy.   Construction Pine is probably much more efficient to work and less expensive. 

Pine is a joy to plane. 

 

The worst dust producer for me is the rounded end of a 4x36 bench belt sander (80 grit) removing the inside of a sandwich of 6 or 8 frames at the stern or bow.   The bevel is significant so there is a lot of wood to remove.   That angle grinder disk can produce a cloud that no vac can totally collect.  

[druxey]

My condolences on the loss of your friend, Håkan. ALS is an awful way to go. I, too, lost a good friend four years ago to the same disease. Strangely enough, we had met through choral singing as well. Sitting and working on a model while meditating is a healing exercise.

[Wintergreen]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

I apologize if my response came across as an insult

Absolutely not!

We are on the same page. 🙂 it's just so hard to decipher text sometimes therefore the extra clarification.

All's well!

[Wintergreen]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:46 PM, druxey said:

ALS is an awful way to go

Agreed druxey. She was strong though and could separate herself from the disease. 

 

anyhow.. Happy new year to us all!

Let me take a moment to explain what is going on in the above picture...

I have come to realize that, to get a consistent and satisfying result when building from scratch jigs and fixtures are instrumental.

Above the two first parts of the beam shelf are being worked on. The starboard side is glued and fixed and the port side await its turn.

The beam shelf sits ca 160 mm beneath the sheer and the sheer is defined by the top outboard strake. As can be imagined the beam shelf needs to be edge bent as well with some degree of force.

So, the pine boards (cross members) have a 5mm tab glued to them and also some double adhesive tape to make them unwilling to move.

At the stem a stump of correct height is held in place by a large clamp in order to meet up with the front end of the beams.

With this setup it was quite easy to force the beam in place up against the pine tabs.

 

The keen eyed viewer can also see the mast step and supporting beams are glued in place.

After trunnels and some cleaning it looks like below.

A note on the tree nails.

On the original the following bolt dimensions where used:

entire keel structure - 1"/25mm

other places of stress - 3/4"/19mm

planks, beams aso - 5/8"/16mm

For example, hull planks where fastened with 16mm, but I've used 0,8mm (24mm real world dimension).

Mainly for two reasons,

1, drawing bamboo down to 0,8 mm is quite simple. Going the extra mile to get down to 0,53 mm (or 0,5mm to match drill bit size) adds quite some time and effort.

2, I think of it like simulating the bolt head, which of course is at least twice the bolt diameter in size.

3, inside won't be seen and outside will be painted...

 

Then of course there is the discussion of with type of glue to use...

For the hull planks I used medium CA and for the beams PVA. And the reasoning is that the outside will be sanded and painted and I therefore don't need to be bothered of residue. The interior will be hidden and not painted, but I still want it to look nice and PVA washes away easily with water.

 

 

[Tony Hunt]

It's looking really good, Håkan. Happy New Year!

[Wintergreen]

Thank you Tony and others that have "liked" 🙂 

Work continued... not so much to read here today so I'll just treat the audience with some progress pictures.

And here in the last photo are some cro-moly "treenails" that won't shear anytime soon...

Yup, drill bits. It all went really well until.. Never mind, I'm quite well stocked with drill bits for the moment.

Pax et bonum, friends!

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Wintergreen

[FlyingFish]

That's some very fancy joinery Hakan. I'm always impressed when close up photography looks flawless. Particularly like the steel 'treenails' great idea!!

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by FlyingFish

[Wintergreen]

58 minutes ago, FlyingFish said:

Particularly like the steel 'treenails' great idea!!

Hehe, thank you Andy, but I will probably not take that path, my stock of drill bits will not last that long 😄

 

[KeithAug]

Great joinery work Hakan - it looks pretty flawless to me.

[Blue Ensign]

I love to see nice framing, and yours fulfils that need admirably.

I could happily display an in-frame model  as a finished article and enjoy looking at it every day.

 

B.E.

[Wintergreen]

2 hours ago, KeithAug said:

it looks pretty flawless to me

Thank you Keith! Yes, it turned out really neat. Probably 10 or so test fit for each scarph with minute filing in between. The last two joints came out decent, not more due to the acute curvature in the aft section. Pictures are coming soon. 

 

1 hour ago, Blue Ensign said:

I love to see nice framing, and yours fulfils that need admirably

Thank you B.E! I'm glad to provide eye candy for you. 🙂 Better make the most of it since the hull will eventually be fully planked. 😉 

 

[Wintergreen]

Thanks for likes and comments 🙂 

And as promised, here are the last two pieces of the beam shelf. I didn't get the shape entirely correct on the starboard one, but it will be covered by the deck, so no big deal.

Port side.

and starboard side

There is also a check seen, but since the piece didn't go "crack" when bent in place (steamed first) I let it be.

And an overall shot as well.

That will be all as far as the interior goes. Beam shelf and two stringers.

On the real ship there were a couple of stringers at the turn of the bilge apart from the slats to cover the frames.

Next up will be deck beams. But that is for another day.

 

Cheers!

[Jim Lad]

Continuing to look very impressive, Håkan.

 

John

[Wintergreen]

Since I today was under influence of "fumble fingers" I thought I'd better update this space.

Thanks to all that browse by and leave a like or a comment 🙂 

Deck beams it was...

Curvature is given as 180mm "rise". Using the sw it was quite easy to draw a circle that fitted the given parameters. Print out and stick to some scrap pieces.

My take was to manufacture two sanding jigs, one convex (upside of beam) and one concave (under side of beam). 

All beams are 200 wide and the moulded size goes in step from 180, 175 down to 150 mm. Some in-between beams are 140 both measurements.

This scales down to 6,7 wide and 6, 5.8 and 5 mm high (moulded) beams.

Birch is the wood.

The pictures roughly cover the process...

First shape is sanded below. And the sanding moulds can be seen also. 120 grit paper. Quick work since I use a narrow 6 tpi bandsaw blade.

Part a beam off the stock. A narrow guide aids so arcs can be sawn easy both ways.

Next upside-to-be is sanded.

I managed up to three beams of every blank. When all beams were cut and upside sanded, focus turned to under side. Now 80 grit paper due to more needed off.

I quickly abandoned holding the beam with fingers, instead ripped off the sandpaper from the other mould and glued some guide pieces to keep the beam in place. No picture.

Then it was much more comfortable to sand all the 28 pieces. Constant measuring was needed as well.

Here the shipwright inspects. (actually taken before the underside was sanded)

Next fun little project was the aft whatever-it-is-called big piece of timber.

And here it has come some way. Actually version 2... version 1 lies above the pen on the board.

Til next time, cheers!

 

[KeithAug]

I keep wondering if I need a bandsaw. I have so many different types of power and hand saws that I can’t bring myself to invest in yet another - but sometimes I just wonder!!!!!!!!!!
 

nice work on the deck beams Hakan.

[Jim Lad]

Nice production line on the deck beams, mate!

 

John

[Wintergreen]

17 hours ago, KeithAug said:

I keep wondering if I need a bandsaw

Yes, and I keep wondering if I need a scroll saw... All my big power tools was bought as an addon to when we bought the house. They were there and the old man had passed away a couple of years prior. A no brainer for me to cough up the extra cash to get them.

Now and again I wonder if I need a small table saw, or a decent scroll saw and what not. 

But for the time being I'll stick to what I have and make the most of it. Model shipwrights of old did not have all these power paraphernalia that we have today and they made some  marvelous models.

 

Thanks @Jim Lad for pooping  popping by 🙂 (sorry 'bout that typo, geez I really had fumble fingers last night)

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Wintergreen

[KeithAug]

2 hours ago, Wintergreen said:

Now and again I wonder if I need a small table saw, or a decent scroll saw and what not. 

Hakan

I use my Byrnes circular saw all the time. The scroll saw is used almost entirely for cutting frames - once every 3 to 4 years - not a very worthwhile investment.

[Wintergreen]

Yes Keith, a mini talbe saw is definitely on the wish list, along with a stationary disc sander. However sweet they are, the Byrnes machines are out of the question. Way too expensive with postage and customs now. I have my eyes on the Proxxon instead.

In the meantime I have found a 5" blade that fits my full size table saw that has a kerf of 1.3-1.5 mm (can't remember) it's the blade that I cut myself on a year ago. At the other end of my blade stack is beast of 305 mm... excellent for milling purpose.

Instead of a scroll saw I use the band saw with a narrow blade, 6 mm, 0.8 mm thick. It has 4 tpi which is too coarse, and I'm in the market for some 6 tpi blades. I have a really neat one mounted now that is 0.6 mm, but at 10 mm wide only large arcs are possible (like deck beams). 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Wintergreen

[vaddoc]

What a lovely boat Hakan!

Life has kept me away from MSW and my shipyard but I went through your entire log today though - very enjoyable! Lovely scale.

Great news regarding your health, I am so happy for you!

Re: equipment: just get what you want! I d go for the largest disc sander you can afford, if you do not already have one.

 

I am very interested to see how your planking with no spilling will go. Have you done any planning how the planks will run or just plank along? Do you taper the ends at the stem? Also, are you bevelling the edges of the planks? 

 

An advantage of CAD vs 2D is that all frame bevels are defined, inside and out and cut before hand so very little fairing is needed, if any.

 

On another note, I think I have a few hundred (could be thousands - I do not know) treenails about 0.8 mm sitting around. I need to check but if still where I last left them and you could use them I could post over. Save you draw plate time. 

 

Regards

Vaddoc