Jump to content

Winchelsea Nef 1274 A.D. by Louie da fly - FINISHED - 1:75


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, druxey said:

Is there evidence for the layout of the planking  butts as you've drawn them? I'm just curious.

 

Not that I know of. Contemporary representations just show a 2-shift, with the butts of one strake central to the length of the next,

 

1511576886_1290to1305MelcombeRegis.jpg.985a42248e64a00900f3c26351b63778.jpg   1965526209_SealofHastingsC13.JPG.bed1c6e7e9774ec90f2143b63fedf448.JPG

 

whale.jpg.995495eff08a85e86a1c5166bbf99af5.jpg

 

but I think that's likely to be artistic licence and that in the real world there would have been at least a 3-shift. I was trying to get a layout that allowed for the planks to be as near as possible to 20-24 feet, which Mondfeld recommends, while avoiding having the end planks too short, as they seemed to be with any other layout.

 

BTW, to my shame, I got one of the plank shifts wrong, so the two sides other aren't mirror images of each other at one point. But I'm committed now, (planks are already glued in place) so I'll just have to put it down to experience. :default_wallbash:

 

Steven

Edited by Louie da fly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

BTW, to my shame, I got one of the plank shifts wrong, so the two sides other aren't mirror images of each other at one point. But I'm committed now, (planks are already glued in place) so I'll just have to put it down to experience. 

1.  Who is really going to notice?

B.  In real life is it ever really symmetrical?

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, Pinas Cross Section
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch), John Smith Shallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Planking in progress. Note the rubber spaces as recommended by Liteflite (though sometimes I use wooden spacers when stiffness is needed).

 

20210818_212120.thumb.jpg.397360ebb99f5a73fe0a43f224153c47.jpg

 

20210818_212126.thumb.jpg.e6d154b20edcb3d49aeb314c63ec31de.jpg

 

And a sliver to close up a gap. 

 

20210818_224122.thumb.jpg.11bf41802b827a05d47f60fdb3083d14.jpg

 

And trimmed off.
 

 

20210819_075813.thumb.jpg.95e0a85586078360de1efe9e6159e00c.jpg

 

More planking:

 

20210821_204518.thumb.jpg.b1e0b899fa50edeccfa61826844df720.jpg

 

 

 

20210822_125617.thumb.jpg.0c32e134ddd0ac1256237d5fc58f15be.jpg

 

 

I've been thinking about Druxey's question regarding the layout of the planking butts - it makes sense that the further they are apart the stronger the structure. But only one of my books (Mondfeld) has a diagram showing how they are supposed to be done. And even then I misinterpreted the layout. 

 

So now that I've got this far, I've decided to change the layout in future strakes so the spacing is more equal (see the black marks)

 

More to come.

 

Steven 

 

Edited by Louie da fly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suddenly realised the planks at the bow didn't line up properly from port to starboard.

 

The planks for the stern were ok (apart from a bit of a problem with them merging with the sternpost - which I'll get to later).

 

20210824_081948.thumb.jpg.457c59ef7b31d8440c9cb05a815c7049.jpg

 

It's the stempost (i.e. at the bow) where the planks were wrongly placed - the starboard and port planks didn't line up with each other (my bad - I should have checked before I got to gluing):

 

20210824_082039.thumb.jpg.bca5547df188b7eb85a110e760d1be7e.jpg

 

This what the planks at the bow look like:

 

20210824_094341.thumb.jpg.b717d358bbfb03abf403b0d42c4c49bf.jpg

 

And here is the planking at the stern - you can see the difference.

 

20210824_094354.thumb.jpg.a8724637bbe54a9299f9b2a0d98e7844.jpg

 

20210824_094406.thumb.jpg.83053bdb1ff80dab10a7f3ce02cacbe6.jpg

 

I took the outer two planks off and glued the first one back in a better place.

20210824_104314.thumb.jpg.56675a87afd980b23a9f436c14eb8b92.jpg

 

But this brought up another problem - never having done clinker planking before, I had considerable difficulty getting the ends of the planks to sit properly at the stem and sternpost. In fact with these planks I was removing I'd ended up bodging the ends - to the degree that I decided - "They're already stuffed - I might as well just make new ones".

 

So I did. All three.

 

20210824_170937.thumb.jpg.902bd574074507958472f5b7539fcab7.jpg

 

I'm getting better at doing the plank ends - the last couple look ok - but you can see the difficulty with the earlier ones. I'll have to go back to them and fix them later - perhaps by gluing slivers of wood in the gaps and trimming them down to shape.

 

20210824_170952.thumb.jpg.fe3c9585f72115aeb1b49525dc6773a6.jpg

 

And here are the bow planks lined up properly.

 

20210825_161230.thumb.jpg.ce701c9f3f27e8b8e9937da59a63beab.jpg

 

Having sorted out this hiccup I've done some more planking, but I haven't taken any photos yet. So you'll just have to wait. :P

 

Steven

 


 

 

Edited by Louie da fly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Steven. I hope my comments aren't too much of a pain! The issue of planks at bow and stern is because the overlap has to disappear by what is known as the gain. It is achieved by one of two methods. One, a rolling bevel is cut on the adjacent plank edges over the last foot or so into the rabbet (the bevel is 45 degrees at the extreme ends, so that the clinker has become carvel), Or, two, an increasing half-lap is cut into adjacent plank edges to give the same result. A simple example of the easier first option is attached.

Illustration 4.psd Dory photo 21a.psd

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steven,

 

    You are progressing well. 

 

    I had problems with the issue of transitioning the clinker into the rabbet at both ends of my cog.  My efforts to transition from clinker to carvel did not work very well.  I eventually did a version of Druxey's option 2.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, Pinas Cross Section
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch), John Smith Shallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, thanks everybody for the likes and comments.

 

Druxey, your comments are very welcome, not a pain at all. They do make me think about things that would otherwise not occur to me.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't open your attachments - they seem to be in Photoshop, which I don't have.

 

I'm not really sure what I'm doing and whether it fits with either of the methods you advise, but somehow it now seems to be working (!) - see the two most recent planks at the bow.

 

20210827_105822.thumb.jpg.a1928a280c7352a0ba7d11e1361f481d.jpg

 

And I have to say, I'm really liking the look of this clinker planking.

 

20210827_110001.thumb.jpg.44fb9b53b993f54c5dc93397bba57082.jpg

 

Steven

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Druxey makes an interesting point about the "gain" at the ends of the plank making the overlap of the clinker planks disappear as they approach the stem and stern posts. It raises the question about when the practice of using gains was first developed?  Did the Vikings use it on their ships?  It's way outside the date range that I'm familiar with for shipbuilding practices, but someone must surely know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steven, I converted them for you....

43000820_Illustration4.jpg.581ef1c3040b3760b0d197376242f1ab.jpg344695851_Doryphoto21a.jpg.ab1bc0ac0d8d06a0659db420087610ee.jpg

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, druxey said:

Thanks, Mark. I didn't realize that they were not universally openable files.

No worries.   There a bunch of "proprietary" file types that won't open on just about any web site.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

It raises the question about when the practice of using gains was first developed? 

I'm not sure this helps. The Nydam Ship  from the western Baltic has been dated to circa 320 CE. If I am interpreting the photos well the clinker overlap seems to be maintained to the rabbet. So the use of gains probably postdates this

629537476_bow03.jpg.20ff0e86538f2024a61878595ca188e2.jpg

 

1568529884_bow04.jpg.2c78df25f7414312fa32d85b00eecf4c.jpg

 

The Gokstad   faering uses a different method again. So they were obviously experimenting

1647168887_gokstad02.jpg.16e6a4995b77261564318ff63d5f095c.jpg

 

Dick

 

 

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On my medieval long-ship I made the planking overlapping all the way into the stem and stern.

843858105_DSC_0007_2(2021_08_0616_56_54UTC).thumb.jpg.4f8875853ed5796e3c37a7168e4eff58.jpg

This is how it is made on the reconstruction which I based the model on.

20200425_114219.thumb.jpg.53e224ec5b02ca2c860cd72c61d96bff.jpg

The archeological find that the reconstruction is based on did only have a small piece of the stem left. However, the "stepped" rabbet is visible.

20210828_070553.thumb.jpg.fb208b6ce842b2097bb98c1fadfa9e5d.jpg

The same type of rabbet can be found in the Kalmar boat I from the middle of the 13th century.

 

2032156455_Skrmbild2021-08-28081228.png.8384d1b24b943e1775f9b1706cda310d.png

Boat IV from the same site shows a similar rabbet. The date for this boat is more uncertain, but 15th century seems to fit the evidence best.

1882250948_Skrmbild2021-08-28081823.png.b42f949efa00422e0afc9a3969fa4c6e.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, that seems to indicate a late introduction of gain. I wonder when this innovation occurred and  where? Thanks to Bolin for the excellent photo and archaeological evidence of a stepped rabbet. I stand corrected!

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everybody for the likes and i particular thanks Woodrat, Druxey and Bolin for the info on bow/sternpost planking.

 

Well, I've reached something of a milestone - I seem to recall Druxey saying the hardest bit of planking is getting to the turn of the bilge. Which I have now done! 

 

I've found that I'm doing an average of one pair of strakes every two days. Here's a pair of end planks.

 

20210829_110719.thumb.jpg.4dd205d289f2c24e87aef80199043d64.jpg

 

I've been joining the planks in a strake with scarphs in the thickness of the plank. There's a lot of trial and error involved and quite a bit of adjustment needed to get the planks to fit properly and follow the line of the strake smoothly. Of course the upper side of the plank isn't as important as the upper, because it will be hidden by the next plank overlapping it. 

 

Sometimes it doesn't quite work at the ends and I have to put in slivers of wood to fill the gaps.

 

20210829_112217.thumb.jpg.47bb66abe9963e03a608baea72082999.jpg

 

20210829_145644.thumb.jpg.af01141029f17c396bf8e6903dfed9f7.jpg

 

And then trim them off smooth.

 

So here's the sequence - progress photos as the planking gradually gets done.

 

20210830_144122.thumb.jpg.e7b77a3651d282f1ef1f46ce01a63482.jpg

 

20210830_144132.thumb.jpg.f883a8315230d2217104991ed15bb732.jpg

 

20210830_170101.thumb.jpg.2f4e92ef800893d6d4bdfdd099ed3735.jpg

 

20210901_161508.thumb.jpg.b92bfeb0e4f53886c511242d5d2fb9ed.jpg

 

20210902_083046.thumb.jpg.85b9c89f3a427528ba074363185f48d1.jpg

 

Some more gap filling needed here. I'll get onto it in due course.

 

20210902_083318.thumb.jpg.7471bbbda7a5112e450ac10dbfd03a67.jpg

 

This end is rather better.

 

20210902_083347.thumb.jpg.270d21b506b4819463dbf8d72068c8ef.jpg

 

 

 

20210902_083442.thumb.jpg.be96cab11d203a9596ff96cf3e3ae4e4.jpg

 

20210902_083455.thumb.jpg.55bc42273b01fc3e92f43dfa65cb27ab.jpg

 

20210902_083507.thumb.jpg.8497d32031d71d652645c3a57b130ef1.jpg

 

20210902_205243.thumb.jpg.1d36aa6da8446c16df7f4829dd000f30.jpg

 

20210902_205256.thumb.jpg.a7384bc76622e6d83e265299e3ad29f7.jpg

 

20210902_205310.thumb.jpg.ef5d8403f7e3c5b51faf3f2fe1ff444f.jpg

 

20210902_205325.thumb.jpg.3f313fad7bd26bbbcb36a2206cfc314f.jpg

 

I'm pretty happy with this. And the pattern of the planking is unexpectedly attractive. It's made me appreciate clinker construction a lot more.

 

Steven

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some “Viking ships,” a loose term, had an extra deep stem posts with the ends of the clinker posts carved into them.  The planking butted against their respective plank shapes carved into the posts.

 

I realize that this explanation is confusing.  I’ll post a picture later.

 

Roger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steven,

 

    It doesn't appear that your planks/strakes taper at the ends.  Are they uniform width end to end or am I not seeing it properly?

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, Pinas Cross Section
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch), John Smith Shallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks people for the likes.

 

Roger, I know about these carved stem and sternposts. Not a problem, but I decided to do it a different way, as nefs are later and further south than Viking ships (there's one on a seal from as far south as Spain!) and could well have followed a different tradition of construction.

 

Chuck, the planks do taper but perhaps not as much as they should, and the taper is not terribly obvious in the photos.

 

Steven

Edited by Louie da fly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Louie da fly said:

 

Chuck, the planks do taper but perhaps not as much as they should, and the taper is not terribly obvious in the photos.

Many thanks

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, Pinas Cross Section
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch), John Smith Shallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just checked the taper in the strakes. The visible part (i.e. not taking the overlap into account) goes from 5 millimetres amidships to 3 mm at the ends. So a taper of 2mm in 5 - not all that shabby after all.

 

Steven

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steven,

 

I was not suggesting that you should have used the “Viking ship” stem as your build is of a different vessel.  Like many threads, this was wandering, however slightly, as different posters discussed different ways of attaching clinker planking to stem and sternposts.  I was adding my two cents worth!

 

In building these ancient ships, your research is always thorough.  You are giving us a window into an unknown world.

 

Roger

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Current progress on the planking:

 

20210903_104016.thumb.jpg.8bcb34abc6a26379e0f4e07790da4759.jpg

 

20210904_111450.thumb.jpg.b74f1a00a0d7fc51e226ad8c1d7e7481.jpg

 

20210904_111528.thumb.jpg.3ea6375193b3d4977c189b3023107aaa.jpg

 

20210906_113312.thumb.jpg.f455a14efc87b430b797220d26c54206.jpg

 

20210906_113332.thumb.jpg.994e042d4e20bbb67b9a8be3681fb07e.jpg

 

20210906_113342.thumb.jpg.7b3a17cc04e5e5bacbb3aa797ec7bfff.jpg

 

20210906_113620.thumb.jpg.9e14d83a77e3d2520ab7d04a4ef5d17a.jpg

 

20210906_113631.thumb.jpg.b9721847460e06af243cda756787a0fb.jpg

 

20210906_145623.thumb.jpg.a67c66e0c54526802a6687a7c888bb6c.jpg

 

20210907_110709.thumb.jpg.34b602cc55624bf836e38618a86d2e49.jpg

 

20210907_110729.thumb.jpg.80ea6a7fdbef21a8ddc25a5c4c12adb7.jpg

 

I was just about to finish the second-last strake, when - AGHAST! I've been using a 1mm drill to make the holes for the push pins (after nasty painful experiences pushing them in when I was making the dromon), and I just broke my last drill bit. We're currently in lockdown, so I have to wait till I can get new ones click-and-collect from Bunnings . . .

 

Interesting - I'm not exactly following the lines I drew on the plug for the planks - I think the planks are trying to tell me something - that my own lines weren't right. Certainly the planking looks better than what I'd drawn.  So, pretty happy with it all.

 

Steven 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/2/2021 at 6:55 PM, Louie da fly said:

 

Chuck, the planks do taper but perhaps not as much as they should, and the taper is not terribly obvious in the photos.

Many thanks

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, Pinas Cross Section
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch), John Smith Shallop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...