HMS Sophie by TBlack - kit-bashing Jack Aubrey's first command from the Vanguard Models HMS Speedy

[TBlack]

A fictional ship. If this doesn't get me tossed out of the NRG. In my defense, my youngest child is named Sophie, and this effort is for her. Nevertheless,

in my attempts to get the lines of the hull correct, I've come up with a problem. In the picture below you can see that there are 7 windows in the transom.

In my volume of Master And Commander, page 32, Aubrey states that there are 7 windows in his cabin. I cannot see how the hull shapes to accommodate

the necessary width for 7 windows, but then gets thin enough to be at the width at the quarterdeck (and the picture shows little tumblehome) Any thoughts?

Tom

[ccoyle]

Is this a scratch build? If so, we need to move your log to the correct subforum.

[TBlack]

Chris, thanks for asking, but it’s a modified kit.

Tom

[Bob Cleek]

The only explanation would be artistic license taken in Geoff Hunt's cover art for Master and Commander, I suppose.  I never noticed it before, but there's definitely something fishy about that stern. He's omitted the overhang and curve of the gallery, which would accommodate the width for the windows, but even then, it's just wrong. Hunt appears to have painted the right vessel, a 14-gun sloop, and then added seven windows where there were never ever any windows at all, apparently in order to cover for O'Brian's confusing HMS Sophie with HMS Surprise. Sophie had no windows in her stern at all. It's Surprise and her prototype, the 24-gun HMS Porcupine class, that had seven.

 

O'Brian based his HMS Sophie on the 14-gun sloop, HMS Speedy. (Vanguard Models offers a well-respected kit model of HMS Speedy.) No kit bashing required, save painting the name "Sophie" on it.  Order 1:64 HMS Speedy – VANGUARD MODELS

 

 

(What may appear to be two windows on Speedy's stern are actually gun ports for deck cannon. She has no aft great cabin.)

 

If you want to build a model of HMS Surprise,  you should be building a model of a 24 gun Porcupine class Royal Navy frigate, which was, I believe, HMS Surprise's sister-ship.  I suggest you get a copy of The Anatomy of the Ship series, The 24-Gun Frigate Pandora. The 24-Gun Frigate Pandora (Anatomy of the Ship): McKay, John, Coleman, Ron: 9780851778945: Amazon.com: Books You'll find the complete plans in there for the actual vessel upon which O'Brian based his fictional HMS Surprise. Here's the stern of the actual vessel created for the movie, a conversion of the HMS Rose replica. I wouldn't trust Hollywood's accuracy, but you can see that a seven-window great cabin wouldn't ever fit on tiny little Sophie. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HMS Pandora went down on the Great Barrier Reef after rounding up some of the HMS Bounty mutineers. Her wreckage was discovered, 30% intact, in the late seventies and extensive archaeological excavations have been done on her. Consequently, she's very well documented. Here's a photo of the Constructo kit model of HMS Pandora, seven windows and all. HMS Pandora | Model Ship | STEPHENS & KENAU™ (stephensandkenau.com) 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[ccoyle]

9 hours ago, TBlack said:

Chris, thanks for asking, but it’s a modified kit.

 

Okay, I modified your title accordingly and spiced it up a little. I imagine that there's a fair number of members who have thought about a similar project and will be interested in how you pull this off.

 

Good luck!

[TBlack]

Bob,

I appreciate your lengthy and in-depth reply. My source of information is the book Master And Commander. The Sophie, unlike the Speedy, had a quarterdeck and a captain's cabin. She was, in fact, the former Spanish brig Vincejo (Trans: swift) which, in real life, had a quarterdeck and a captain's

cabin.

What I have done is buy the Speedy kit from Chris Watton and intend to alter it to allow for the changes to the aft portion (this is a little like taking the Mona Lisa and painting a mustache on her). And I think I will handle the stern like the Fair American, that is, the outboard windows will be fake.

Tom

[whitejamest]

It sounds like a very interesting project TBlack. I'm a big fan of the books, and look forward to seeing your progress. You certainly have your work cut out for you though. Vincejo looks to have been a significantly larger brig than the historical Speedy, with very different lines. I almost wonder if you would have more luck modifying a kit like HMS Fly. 

[TBlack]

James,

You're right Vincejo weighed in at 250 tons while Sophie was closer to 150. No, I'm modifying the Speedy kit. Principally by broadening the last three

bulkheads to allow for the aft cabin.

Tom

[Keith Black]

 I just pulled up a chair, brother Tom. I'm here for the duration and look forward to the journey. 

[yvesvidal]

Very interesting project. Surprise or Sophie? I like both.

 

Yves

[TBlack]

Well, Yves I'm doing Sophie for my daughter of the same name and pictured below with her family:

Tom

[Keith Black]

 Tom, thank goodness she looks like her mother..... All kidding aside, a very nice looking daughter and her family photo, you should be extremely proud. 

[TBlack]

Keith, bro, 

She's fabulous, and a wicked sense of humor, and she's your niece!

Anyway, on to ship building:

I have no real idea of how to tackle this, but I thought I ought to put something on paper. Fortunately, Chris includes the following with the Speedy kit:

 

Still not quite sure what to do with the information, but I developed this:

 

But what about the beam? Maybe dictated by the transom?

More later,

Tom

[TBlack]

A transom template. A complete guess, but it has seven windows somewhat equal to the proportions seen in the photo.

A little rough, but it's the width and length I'm interested in right now. From the plan that I drew, shown above,

I've fixed the cabin deck. I know from the book that Aubrey sat in the cabin and that there were 18" above his head to the ceiling. I figure that means about 5.5' of height in the cabin. That fact sets the location of the quarterdeck. Does it match the photo? We'll see.

Tom

Edited November 24, 2021 by TBlack

[Bob Cleek]

15 hours ago, TBlack said:

Bob,

I appreciate your lengthy and in-depth reply. My source of information is the book Master And Commander. The Sophie, unlike the Speedy, had a quarterdeck and a captain's cabin. She was, in fact, the former Spanish brig Vincejo (Trans: swift) which, in real life, had a quarterdeck and a captain's

cabin.

What I have done is buy the Speedy kit from Chris Watton and intend to alter it to allow for the changes to the aft portion (this is a little like taking the Mona Lisa and painting a mustache on her). And I think I will handle the stern like the Fair American, that is, the outboard windows will be fake.

Tom

Good luck in your endeavor. I remain curious as to how putting seven windows in the transom of HMS Speedy, together with a quarterdeck and captain's cabin will be possible, if for no other reason than there does not appear to be sufficient depth in the stern of Speedy to accommodate a great cabin with even minimal standing headroom. She's just not that large a vessel. Note in the drawing below on the right that the compartment indicated does not run all the way aft. That's because there's no room back there, given the tuck of the stern.  What space there may be in the compartment indicated would have quite a minimal sole area, being useful perhaps as a sleeping cabin with pilot berths on either side, but certainly not for anything serving as a captain's great cabin with a table and chairs, etc.

 

 

If Speedy wasn't the prototype for Surprise, as some commentators have concluded, any other vessel of the size described in the book would have to have a radically different hull shape and deck structure to provide space for a cabin with seven windows across the transom, negating the usefulness of Speedy as a basis for a kit bashing. 

 

I wouldn't give all that much weight to the descriptions in the book, nor in Geoff Hunt's cover illustration. Hunt's depiction, as you have noted, is inexplicable when critically examined, no matter how convincing it appears at first glance. On close examination, the side of the ship and the shape of the windowed stern in Hunt's illustration simply don't match. He's basically painted an optical illusion. As for O'Brian's descriptions, it must be noted that, by all indications, he knew diddly squat about ships and the sea, save what he cribbed from old Admiralty reports. O'Brian was a technical writer and translator by trade who, despite his published claims to the contrary in one instance, later betrayed himself to have had little, if any personal nautical background or experience. His Aubrey/Maturin series was written at the request of a publisher who wished a Napoleonic Era "Hornblower-type" period sea novel. As an excellent technical writer, he based his stories on the Admiralty action reports of the time researched in the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, primarily basing his Aubrey character on Thomas Cochrane (1775-1860) the real Master and Commander of the sloop HMS Speedy. (See: Thomas Cochrane | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk) )  In all of his writing, O'Brian was noted for his uncanny ability to present himself as sounding as if he knew far more about what he was writing than he actually personally knew, this being the hallmark of a great technical writer. That said, in a body of work as extensive as the Aubry/Maturin novels, and particularly in his very first effort in the gendre, he's entitled to a faux pas now and again. He was, after all, imagining the features of vessel upon which he'd never set foot without the slightest background in naval architecture, let alone such as was particular to the period. In short, I think he dropped the ball on this one.

 

Still and all, have fun with your build and do keep us apprised in your build log.  It's a bit of a "square peg in a round hole" challenge, but a fascinating one nonetheless.

 

 

[TBlack]

Bob,

Thanks for your reply. Remember I’m not building Speedy; I’m building a brig that resembles Speedy in some respects. If Jack Aubrey says there is a quarterdeck, a captain’s cabin, and windows in the transom, then Sophie is bulkier in the stern than the speedy. For example, look at the picture of the Sophie that I posted above. Notice   how at the stern the bottom of the wale is at the waterline. Now look at the two drawings included with the Speedy kit. You can see that the wale is considerably above the waterline. 
And, Bob, I can’t just invent a Sophie. If Aubrey (O’Brian) says these things exist, then I have to build the model accordingly. There will be other areas where descriptions in the book will lead me in how to build the model. Another example is the forecastle. The term is used throughout the story; however, it turns out it’s not a raised f’csle in the traditional sense, but just the forward area of the main deck.

Finally, I’m thinking the transom piece is too wide; I’m going to try making it a bit smaller.

Tom

[mtaylor]

I re-reading this and looking at the first picture, several things come to mind.   The picture shows 7 windows with the 2 outboard ones seemingly hanging out there with no quarter galleries.  Follow the line from the stern bulwark downwards and it appears to go between the the outboard windows.  We know that many countries did false windows to make the stern appear larger.  On some, they were all false windows.

 

You are right about O'Brian and his method it seems.   He may have been a technical writer but his books aren't technical.  Their about the characters and their actions.

 

So, as for what's below the quarter deck, don't worry about it unless you're planning on doing cut-outs in the hull and showing interior works.  If that's the case, then it's another can of worms to sort out.

[TBlack]

As I mentioned before, it's the last 3 bulkheads that need attention (13, 14 & 15). 13 maybe minor, we'll see. But 14 and 15 need complete new fabrication.

These are the ones that come with the kit:

They need widening and filling out. I just have to guess at their shape. I put the rest of the bulkheads in place and put batons along the sides to estimate a smooth shape for the hull. Took a chance and cut two bulkheads and came up with this:

I'm getting closer, but not quite there yet. The baton strategy is the way to go. I'll need to add some width to 13 and 14.

Tom

 

[TBlack]

A little more progress:

I've installed the lower deck, the supports for the main deck, and the main deck as far back as bulkhead 13 where the quarterdeck/captain's cabin

start. I determined the location of the break by looking at the photo and seeing that the break occurs just after #6 gun. In the side view picture below, that rig is helping me decide how wide the transom should be.

 

Tom

[Cathead]

This is a cool project, regardless of where it falls on the fanciful-real spectrum. Will be great to see how this progresses, as others have said.

[TBlack]

She's fairly faired!

Looks a little rough, but the run of the battens is smooth and symmetrical. I'll quit while I'm ahead. Next, I installed the captain's cabin subfloor:

 

 

This will help me locate the quarterdeck. We know, from the book, that Aubrey can't stand upright in the cabin. Furthermore, he states that when he 

is sitting down there is 18" of headroom over his head. I calculate that to mean the cabin has a height of 5.5'.

 

Finally, thanks for the likes, and stopping by. If you see a place where I might be going wrong, don't hesitate to put me right.

Tom

[TBlack]

Using 5.5' as a guide, I set up a couple of planks to see how it all fits:

 

Now I can mark the bulkheads for the 1/4 deck position. Turning next to the transom area, I have a profile plan as to how it all fits:

Notice in my drawing that the Sophie transom is in the same position and same angle as the Speedy. Given that fact, the rest of the area falls into place

(theoretically!). It gets a little hairy back here to make everything fit smoothly, and I'm no draftsman (draughtsman, if you're from the UK).

Tom

 

 

[TBlack]

Gets more complicated. This piece:

There's a transverse arc which I've mapped out below:

Hard to see the arc in the above drawing, but it's on the lower line on the right picture. I think I can make this piece out of one block. Not sure how yet.

These are things they never taught you in college! Or maybe I just went to the wrong college?

Tom

[Cathead]

These are things they taught in the builder's yard, father to son, master to apprentice. Most of us are trying to make a shortcut across hundreds of years of accumulated skill and knowledge.

[TBlack]

I started to make the counter piece and got this far:

In trying to make the curves on the back end I managed to botch it up completely. Start again!

So next I thought I ought to pay attention to Chris Watton's wonderful instructions which go toward the bow. I see from other Speedy logs that dealing with the side bulwark patterns can be interesting. Nevertheless, it's time to install on side at a time. Here is my first attempt now drying:

At another site I recommended elastics and alligator clips, so couldn't use too many nails.

Tom

[TBlack]

I've gotten the other side bulwark pattern in place which allows me to put the aft bulkheads in place:

Because the aft bulkheads now don't have the same curvature as originally designed, they are slightly longer (now going in a straight line as opposed to arcing}. See the line I've drawn above. But also, the width between the port and starboard bulkheads now really needs to be determined. I've been using a template that measures 3.5", but that is just a guess. On the plus side, where I drew the counter on my plan and where it needs to be "as built" is coming out perfectly. I may actually be able to pull this off!

Tom

[Keith Black]

Tom, great news. I've got the champagne on ice. 

[TBlack]

Keith,

The ice might melt before we're ready to celebrate.

Tom

[Keith Black]

 You got this.

[TBlack]

Yes, but who's got me?