Fokker D VIII by popeye the sailor - FINISHED - Comet - balsa flying model

[popeye the sailor]

Hi all........sorry for being lax in the model department,  but I've been busy on other things.  I have had time to put around......this is a recent acquisition.  I recently bought another older Billing kit of the Zwarte Zee tug boat.......I wrote about it in one of the sub forums,  thinking that an extra set of eyes might help me find a fitting kit for it.  I'm not too concerned with it,  but I may have to source parts for it........but along with this model kit,  I bought this one..........

I built this same model back in the 70's,  back when I first moved to Florida.  it was my best flyer.........actually,  the only decent flying model I built at the time.  I can't say that though 'cuz I built a Piper cub when I was still in school that flew fairly well {that's a semi long story  }    looks can be deceiving though...........

 

come to find out,  this isn't the kit.........the plane was much bigger and was covered in tissue.  this particular kit is completely wooden....balsa!  I need to get a move on though..........the admiral wants to go shopping,  so I will be back soon to add more information.....and some pictures of the kit itself.  I'm hoping that I can go somewhere that carries wood putty........I'm gonna need it  

 

be right back!

[popeye the sailor]

I have a few moments......so I'll continue.  there's no production date that I can see.......best guess is maybe back in the '70's.  kit number #2305.......the kit back then sold for $2.50.  I have pictures of the brochure that came in the box,  but the pictures must still be in the camera.  Comet fly models has been around since the 30's........bought out by Guillow's in 1998.  ok........guess we can hit the road now 

 

who waits for who?

[ccoyle]

I'm fairly certain that the Richthofen-style all-red box art image is a figment of the artist's imagination. Richthofen never flew a D.VIII, because the type didn't enter service until October of 1918.

[Old Collingwood]

3 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

I have a few moments......so I'll continue.  there's no production date that I can see.......best guess is maybe back in the '70's.  kit number #2305.......the kit back then sold for $2.50.  I have pictures of the brochure that came in the box,  but the pictures must still be in the camera.  Comet fly models has been around since the 30's........bought out by Guillow's in 1998.  ok........guess we can hit the road now 

 

who waits for who?

I once built  (well  watched my dad  and did the easy bits)    a Balsa  plane kit  with my  dad   when I was a kid,   can't remember  what type it was  -  but was  fascinated  watching the  wings  come together.

 

OC.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Old Collingwood

[Dave_E]

I’ll watch….long as you fly it when done. 😁

[popeye the sailor]

hi there...I'm back.  good to see some have chimed in    I didn't get a chance to further tell you all about the kit.......it's rather sad really.  I've built around ten of these planes,  not counting the one I built during my days at school........I only had one that was a real flyer.  first off.....I'll reply........

 

you know it Chris,  and I knew it.......Richthofen spent most of his career in an Albatross,  when he wasn't test flying proto types.  he never got to fly his latest test plane,  the Fokker D VII........he died by the time they came off the line.  he was prolific in flying the Dr 1 though......and it was in the famous red one that he died.  why they let him fly was odd........he was messed up from other injuries he received in prior battles.  it is known that the crash didn't kill him.......he died by the bullet.  the other one I built was red as well........from what I have dug up,  this was the only model produced by Comet.  it may have been a Guillow's offering that I built.  it definitely was a stick 'n tissue plane.

 

good to see you here OC.......I have a lot of catching up to do!  these are not easy kits to build......balsa is so easy to break!

 

hello Dave..........yea,  about that   after looking at the condition of the contents,  I decided to go static with it.  it is missing a lot of detail that is the DVIII.  a few years ago,  I got back into it by building a Guillow's Spitfire MK1.  even though it is fly - ready,  I've never flown it.  I can't attest that it would ever fly....balance,  dihedral.....so much goes into it before the rubber band is wound and let go.........luck does the rest

I don't use the dope.......the stuff can't be used in a closed environment...smells way too much!  I start with spraying the parts with diluted white glue.  it tightens up as it dries.......I give it about two coats.  it does loosen up when I change over to paint,  but it tightens up for the last time as it dries. 

 

as mentioned,  I estimate the kit to have been produced around the 70's.......the price extensions say it all  

  

this is the order form and mini catalog.......the prices don't seem like much,  but back then,  it was a king's ransom.  I was about 14 in 1970,.....graduated high school in 1974....by my birthday in 1974,  I was in sunny Florida.  I told the story at an earlier time,  but here goes.....     Lake Mac was a man made lake...circular in shape.  on our side,  the road followed the lake edge,  then made a circular turn away,  which created this round grassy area,  with palm trees and picnic tables.  across from this circle,  there was a barbed wire fence,  with marshy scrug brush and saw grass beyond.........and to the right of that was another barbed wire fence border,  with the same terrain on the other side.  by the time I built the D VIII,  I had built a P40 warhawk,  Dehavland mail plane,  and one other plane that I can't recall........all three fell in ruin......crashed.  the mail plane had an interesting send off.......I gave it a Viking funeral...complete with fire    no matter what I did to this plane,  it would not fly straight....just kept wanting to stall and hit the ground.  it was a good thing the grass was high,  or it wouldn't have lasted as long as it did.  it got to the point.....after repeated repairs,  that it was deemed a loss,  so it was decided to put her out of her misery.  after dousing it with lighter fluid,  I held it while my friend Mike lit it up......sending it out over lake mac.  darn thing never flew better!........went straight out.......a climbing stall......a right bank,  which sent directly back at us!  we got out of the way...........but I wish I had a video camera,  so I could capture how it ended up crashing at the water's edge!  so cool!  the first flight of the Fokker was awesome!......it even glided for a short time after the rubber band had run it's course.  the third flight........she flew straight.......across the road,  and over the barbed wire fence.  by this time the rubber was expended........gliding further,  she decided to bank to the right...........right over the second barbed wire fence!  I went out to get it....talk about mucky!  I was up to my knees in water.  the plane had skewered itself on a reed.......I broke it off so not to damage her too much.  I was coming out of the 'fields',  when this old guy in a pick up truck showed up {Mike knew him}.  he looked at me and asked if I was the guy he saw out in there.....I told him it was me......my plane flew out there and I went out there to get it.  he then told me that it's not a good idea to be runn'in 'round in there.........there's snakes 'n gators in there!               Mike told him I just moved to Florida....he basically just cautioned me about going in there again.  ...mentioned something to Mike about his dad and the fire department,  got back in his truck,  and left.  I did not go back in there again   I never saw one in lake mac........but I did see one sunning himself on a log in lake Diaz {and to think I swam there off a sand bar!}

 

anyone why built one of these model can attest to the die cut parts.........they are terrible!  this kit is no exception.......it took some creative cutting to remove the parts.  some I had to imagine the cut lines from the instruction diagrams.  being a struct o speed kit, the main wing is just the topside with ribs that curve it to create a foil,  to channel the air.  it lacks detail to distinguish it as a D VIII...and the way it's assembled would make it look even more lame than it already does { I was thinking Endecker,  rather than the EV Chris.......your current project looks so cool}.  {I have to remember that the Endecker was a very early fixed wing,  so not to confuse anyone}.  the landing gear is the same way........just a flat piece of balsa.  so I decided to beef it up and make it a static model......I'm sure it will never fly with what I want to do to it.  as mentioned,  there is no tissue.......it is constructed totally of balsa.  they supply a strip of balsa,  to be contorted to form the prop,  but there is a plastic one in the box.........no thrust button though.  that's OK......there's no parts for an engine either,  which I intend to add {or something reasonable}.

the decals,  if you can call them that,  are a bit of a joke too.  there are some in black on the diagram sheet,  but I have some decals I think will work better.

I need to fasten the diagram down to flatten it out.......it's not like the normal stick 'n tissue,  where it is used as a template.  you might be able to glean some of the assembly construction of the model.

I have some of the balsa stringers from the Spitfire left over.........what else I need will be done in basswood.

 

[popeye the sailor]

I started with the rudder,  since the triangular part was loose in the box.  the rudder part itself doesn't look anything like the era tail rudder,  that these early planes sported.  I assembled it anyway and will add to it later.

it wasn't too hard to guess which former went where.........I started from the tail and will work forward on the fuselage.  I didn't bother to punch out for the rubber band.  the fuselage lacks formers for the front section,  so I will have to make some for it.

the split towards the front is intentional,  since it needs to wrap around the nose former.  the slots are so darn big.......I will need to get some wood putty {I ran out}.

the bottom is basswood......I went only so far with it for now.  I have done some sanding as can be seen......trying my best to keep the dings and scratches from occurring in the balsa.

I may do some form of inner framework and a seat once the fuselage is formed....I'll leave the top open.  normally,  the top is a paper cutout on the diagram sheet.......I will make it out of basswood.  there are no machine guns either.......I will be making a pair.  I have a pair of plastic ones from another model that I had gotten an upgrade for........but I don't think 1:48 will work for this scale.  in fact......there is no scale listed for these older models,  they only list the wingspan.  this one has a 14 inch wingspan.  I'm sure that scale classification was in play around this time.  early in the modeling history,  there wasn't one........everyone made their models from scratch.  trains modelers suffered the most,  because they couldn't sell or trade their models with other train enthusiasts...they wouldn't fit their tracks.  when plastic modeling {using molds} came into being,  scales became more crucial,  and odd scales at that.  later,  the more common scales we know today came about when the scale classification equation came into effect.   I went back to the rudder and added a piece of balsa,  rounding it off to look something like what it should....not exact,  but good enough  

that's one of the wing ribs next to it........scary huh!?!?!?!  I rounded the outer edge of the rudder,  since I won't need to thicken it up.  neither will I need to do that to the stabilizer.

this is what I got for the main wing.  since this part has the strut holes......oversized .......I took a sheet of 1/32 basswood and traced the outline for the top.  once the ribs are in place,  I'll sandwich the top over them.  we'll see how that works out

more on this tomorrow    thanks for look'in in!

 

[Canute]

Very interesting build, Dennis. Good idea backing up the balsa parts with basswood. Stuff is just too fragile.

[popeye the sailor]

thanks Ken.......I have some balsa sheet,  but it's too thick.  I got it for that Wright Bros. kit my son gave me......I need to cut quite a few ribs given that some are missing.   basswood has been my go to wood in all my wood builds.

 

 

I designated the slotted part of the wing the bottom,  since it has the slots for the struts.      I added the inner and outer ribs and will sand them to the shape they need.

next,  I added the engine firewall former to the fuselage,  bending the side walls to conform to the shape of the former.

the slots in the center of the wing will not be used......I will close them up.  wasn't thinking,  or I wouldn't have opened them up in the first place.  this won't be the first boo boo I'll make and need to rectify  the bottom of the fuselage was closed up....you might notice the slight bulge on the port side.

while all this is going on,  I've been sanding........trying to maintain how much repair work there is to do.....I got to get me some wood putty.

the slots for the landing gear needs to be done still,

 

[popeye the sailor]

once the ribs on the wing were sanded to the proper shape,  the top cover was laid down.   I really should have created a jig to do it,  but I was concerned that some CA would bleed out and cause problems when it was time to remove it.  so I laid it down a section at a time.  there is a sign of warpage....not real bad,  but it's noticeable.  then it was the effort to round off the leading and trailing edges of the wing.

I tried to straighten the wing,  but it popped the bond in the center and I had to reglue it.  most of this session was in sanding the edges.

note the crack at the wing tip.........that was another result from my trying to straighten it.  I'll see what it looks like when the time comes to put the wing on........make a decision then.

I tried to give you a good view of the edge shaping.......hope you can see it.  I will do this to the landing gear pad too.

[Egilman]

5 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

but I was concerned that some CA would bleed out and cause problems when it was time to remove it.

You forget the wax paper brother? I was taught to lay down a layer of it over the print so the glue wouldn't stick to the build surface, and if it did you could easily sand it off afterwards without damaging the rib structure....

[popeye the sailor]

sounds like a good tip,  but I don't normally use CA on these planes,  I use white glue.  the plans are laid over a build board and then covered with clear saran wrap.  I use pins to set the parts in place,  since the plans are 1:1 with the model.  I really should start a log on my Dr 1 { I even made a mistake in it }  I'm sure folks would get a kick out of it {it will be static as well for the curious}.

 

anyway.....I haven't been idle,  but here is some more progress I've already done.  I did have to laugh a bit with your comment Chris.........after I was done sanding the wing,  I had to get a coat of paint on it.   one to seal the wood, and two,  since it is the basswood side,  I wanted to see how much 'hair' would come up.  I do need to sand it,  so it will be easy to change the color.........still batt'in it 'round in my head what color scheme to go with  

one thing I didn't give any thought to though.......was the ailerons.  I should have marked them with marker pen,  like I did with the stabilizer

the landing gear got it's change over as well.........I made up a couple of ribs,  sanded them to shape,  and cemented the cover on it.

balsa on top,  since it shows where the struts go.  from here,  the leading and trailing edges were fleshed out.  the leading edge had a slight gap,  so I added a strip to it.

hopefully,  I will get some filler soon.

[popeye the sailor]

continuing with the session,  the axle was routed through the pad and then cemented to the fuselage.

I want to take the time to wish all of you a veery happy Thanksgiving.  my small jobs are done for the moment,  so I thought I'd sneak in here and see what you folks are up to.  time and time again.........I am NEVER disappointed!    all of you have a scrumptious holiday!  

[popeye the sailor]

the landing gear was done about a week ago.........I did manage to get some wood putty in the meantime.  I bought a couple different types.......the water soluble type and what they call plastic wood.  I prefer the water based type mainly because it can easily be diluted to a more malleable cream,  rather than a paste.  done smooth enough,  it can reduce sanding,  and does stretch it out to cover more surface.  I did a little on the fuselage,  but I tried the plastic wood.......smelly stuff,  but it works well enough.

still needs a little more sanding and finish the rest of the fuselage.  I hadn't checked on the wing either........that was also about a week ago.  it should be totally dry by now.

today,  I had some time to putt around.  I started to think about the engine.   the Fokker Dr 1 has a wingspan of 20 inches.......1:14 scale.  it features a vacuum form radial engine,  to replicate the Oberursel Ur.III.

the D VIII was equipped with the same engine,  and had the same result as the Dr 1.......poor engine performance.  there were experimental engines used in these aircraft,  and was later fitted with either the Goebel or Siemens / Halske engines.  unfortunately for the D VIII,  only 380 were ever produced during the war,  and around 85 actually saw combat.  most were destroyed after the war,  except for the handful that got snuck out of the country.  

    I gathered the parts to start this little task

the outer cowl part,  the crank case button,  and the piston sleeves that were cut from dowel.   the sleeves were cemented to the button......of course,  I could only get eight of them on, since nine is an odd number for the pie fraction.  all I need are the    ones that poke out from the bottom cutaway,  so it will do.  if I had beveled the base of the sleeves in two places,  it could be done.

now to sand it circular,  and round off the sleeve heads a little.......clean the mess up.  I may add some tubes on it to further detail it.  next was to cut a length of basswood across the grain long enough to go around the cowl face.  cutting it in this fashion will make it flexible.......even more so after getting it wet {dried and left damp}.  the CA will adhere even when wet,  which is a great property for a cement to have     the seam was filled with plastic wood filler.

the filler doesn't take long to dry.......being made up with Acetone and N-butyl acetate.  it appears to sand fairly well.....I think I'll stick to the good 'ole water base though.......less smell and it don't have cancer written all over it   before long,  the outer edge of the cowl was nicely rounded off.

....and now for the bad part........the engine is too small    I think going for a larger button,  will allow me to glue on all nine sleeves without having to bevel them.   so back to the drawing board for the engine.......but I'm on the right track.  hope you all had a great day  

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

found a fairly good reference site on the D VIII........too bad that the pictures are all in black n white.

Fokker D.VIII (English)

 

 

 

 

 

now that the feasting and napping is over....................on with the Christmas rush!  

[popeye the sailor]

Hi all........finally put together another update.........I'm looking into three facets at this point,  as well as getting the fuselage to the point of painting.  I'm still juggling a design in my head.  the engine being too small was a minor set back......but definitely not a deterrent.  I did make the crankcase larger........and with that,  the sleeves needed to be enlarged as well.  debating how much detail to put into it,  since only a couple of the sleeves will be seen.  I do have to properly space it,  given that I have ample room in the cowl.

with hardly any room and how short the sleeves are,  it doesn't give much for cylinder heads {I'm throwing ideas around}.  another aspect are the machine guns........I made up a pair of cooling chambers 

now.......I have a nice pair of 1:48 machine guns,  but they just don't seem to catch the scale of the model

I think they need to be a bit heftier......your thoughts?  the third aspect is the cockpit..........I wish I had round stock that small.  I do but limited on what I have on hand.......so I created the box from balsa stock and will round off the corners.

I did a little sanding......still fragile at this point in time.  I need to beef up the frame.   using smaller size balsa strip,  I fleshed out the supports.  more sanding was done after it had set enough to do so,  and it was fitted into the fuselage.

there is more to add.  the nose former is out of round........I left it that way until I made the cowl.  now that I have a good idea what needs to be trimmed off,  I can start to make up the top cover to the fuselage.  there is a template on the instructions that I cut out,  and used it to cut the panel.  the cockpit hole was cut out and it will give me a sense of where the instrument panel locates.  you see the long slot that was to be cut out of the panel for the wing support....these are the parts that I eliminated to produce a more accurate model.

more to come  

[DocRob]

Man Popeye, that's some interesting stuff. So entirely different from plastic scale modelling. It has to fly in the end, that makes all the difference. I really like the woodwork and scratching you are doing on my favorite WWI plane. I would really like to see you applying lozenge camo instead of the completely wrong Richthofen Rot. There were some yellow black diamond colored navy birds made for a change and  as an eye catcher. 
I've only built a plastic Fokker D.VIII from MikroMir in 32 scale, which needed some serious scratch work, including brass soldering for the struts, that was pure fun.
GasPatch of Greece makes very fine resin MG's in different scales. Their largest are some 08/15 in 1/16, at least a bit closer to your birds scale than the 1/48 ones .
https://www.gaspatchmodels.com/machine-guns-1-16/

Somehow you triggered something in me with your build. I may visit the only LHS on my deserted island, which carries about 10 plastic models, but one wooden flying plane, I think it was a P-40. Maybe I will have a closer look.

 

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

I had an itch of remembering and searched for my MikroMir instructions and found a red post war Fokker D.VIII, flewn by Ernst Udet in air shows. That might be interesting for you, as it doesn't carry the double Spandau MG's.

 

Cheers Rob

 

[popeye the sailor]

thanks for the picture Doc.......if you look in the link I posted earlier,  picture #33 shows Ernst Udet in a D VIII.  it doesn't look like it has the machine guns on it either,  but it has the lozenge camo.  do I dare try it?  I do have some of his decals in 1:48.......maybe not the same configuration,  but it could be done { after all,  it is a static model}.  the decals I plan to use are from a Dr 1..........I can pretty much use them all except for the plane production numbers.  the decals are for an F1 flown by Richthofen in the final test flights.  he took the plane out on Sept 1, 1917 and shot down two planes.  he came back very happy with the way the plane handled........the plane he flew, F1 102/17 was awarded to Kurt Wolff,  along with F1 103/17 to Werner Voss.  both died in the same month.........Wolff on the 15th,  and Voss on the 23rd.  

as you can see.....I have other decals as well.  so if these don't pan out,  I'm not stuck    I've only had a couple of good flyers out of all the planes I've built.  a P40...........I built the Guillow's P40.........had a nasty run in with a palm tree.  received an impacted cowl if I remember right    dihedral and balance are the two important things to remember....they are a lot of fun to build.   the only thing I don't like about balsa,  is that it is so easy to dent the wood.......even finger nail marks..  I almost have enough to post another update.....the cockpit    see you soon!

[ccoyle]

1 hour ago, popeye the sailor said:

I built the Guillow's P40.........had a nasty run in with a palm tree.

 

I built one, too. Mine connected with a mailbox on its very first flight. 😬

[popeye the sailor]

damn those dreaded obstacles!  I see a lot of that at work.......apparently,  there are drivers that can't navigate the yellow poles!   they cut it too close and rub the side rails.......I'd love to show you pictures of the damage!

 

I didn't do it long enough........with enough experience,  you can get these planes to do some pretty neat things.  I might get back into it......today.........Dec 1st.......I got a letter from social security informing me that as of today,  I can formally file for retirement!  66 and four months........I made it!  reality check...........it's still a pipe dream    maybe in another couple of years {sympathetic pat on the back.......there, there} 

 

but........there is an update........so onward stout! 🆕  I had left off with the cockpit box......strengthening it with support bars.  I ended up having to shorten it because I had made it too long and it was hitting the tabs from the landing gear struts.  I tried to remove the stubbles,  but I realized that I could possibly weaken them,  so I gave up and altered the box.  it wasn't too hard to make up the seat.......I gave it a pair of braces and a single leg for under the fanny area.  the goal is to get it so it fits flush in the fuselage,  and give it some sort of detail.  I'm going to try and do as much as I can.

oh....and I also made up the foot pedals.  when it's time to put on the top fuselage panel,  I need to make formers that will give me something to glue to,  and help me give the panel the correct curvature,  flush to the aft section and the cowl {which still needs to be refined}.   I did a trace of the curvature and trimmed the part to do the job.

....and then finally.......a splash of paint!  using some Humbrol and Monogram flat paints,  the interior walls was done in a flat wood brown.

I got the few parts that were in the spare room together,  here at my desk,  so I wouldn't lose them.    I also filled in the rest of the imperfections and gaps.  sanding never ends  

[popeye the sailor]

that was done on the 29th.........this is the 30th......more sanding on the cockpit box to get it to fit better.  now it slides in perfectly.   the seat was cemented in place,  since it will be the same color as the box........this is that chromate green I mixed a while ago.......

added is a panel....a lever of sorts will be added later.  I felt bad for the pilot,  so I'm making some leather pads for the seat and back rest.   I have the template traced out for the instrument panel......just haven't made it yet.  I later added the lever,  the foot pedals {painted flat steel},  and the base for the stick.

I tried to make a decent stick......with the hand grip,  but I kept botching it,  so a simple stick it is.  the leather pads have been added to the seat.

I did some more painting,  which will highlight the next update.  lucky for you folks {or maybe not}.......it's ready for presentation     coming right up! 

[popeye the sailor]

the top of the stabilizer was painted flat white,  as well as the rudder {the most well known color of Fokker tails    doing the stab ailerons in marker pen was kinda futile.......it highlights,  but very little.  I have a scriber I'm going to try.......first time using it.  it can be purchased at Billing USA,  or wherever they sell Model Craft tools.   not so good either.......it had diamond bits,  so it tears the balsa,  rather than grooving it......so I stopped using it and resorted to using the back spine of a single edge razor blade.  worked just as well   the underside of the stabilizer was done in a dark German Gray.

cleaning up the groove a bit and running a pencil along them,  they were touched up with paint.   after sanding the fuselage,  it was painted with Humbrol matt 87 - Steel Gray.  it looks the perfect base color for what I have in mind.

the undersides of the fuselage and landing gear was done in the flat dark German Gray.

looking in on Chris's log gave me enough insight as for the shape of the ailerons on the wing.  I drew them in pencil,  and grooved them with the razor blade.

the balsa side was a little less forgiving...had to fix a couple of pho-pars.

the two slots in the center still need to be filled in....I later did that too.

a bit of filler and some sanding should do them nicely.  the wheel hubs were painted and a little more was done on the guns.

the prop needs work.......I'll get to that soon......engine too.  it can be seen where I added a wafer to the center of the engine....need to cut another wafer for the front,  to give it proper spacing inside the cowl.  the last picture is the top of the stabilizer and the rudder.......need to decide what decals I'm gonna use.

more soon  

 

 

[Canute]

It's a wonder that actually flew with that tiny vertical stabilizer and rudder. Aeronautical engineering and design was in it's infancy, but the Wright Flyer had more surface area than this Fokker.

[Egilman]

4 hours ago, Canute said:

It's a wonder that actually flew with that tiny vertical stabilizer and rudder. Aeronautical engineering and design was in it's infancy, but the Wright Flyer had more surface area than this Fokker.

The Wright Bros figured out how to control an aircraft in the air... in 1903 the actual engineering of the best ways to do it were still to figure out... the first flight of an aircraft actually happened in Europe 3 years earlier, the problem was no one knew or understood how to control it once it got into the air... Everyone was thinking rudders like on a ship and inherent stability instead of actually controlling lift.... The wright flyer had huge control surfaces, about 4 times what was actually needed but they didn't know it at the time, and their control moments were way too fast... Wind tunnel testing done in the '90's confirmed that the wright flyer was all but uncontrollable.... But that is what Wilbur and Orville wanted, they wanted it all but uncontrollable... What better way to prove they succeeded than by flying an almost uncontrollable craft....

 

If you take a look at the Flyer II they decreased the control surface areas, (and reduce control moments) and tried to increase power, but the flyer II was barely able to get into the air much less fly....

 

The next year the flew the Flyer III which had a more advanced engine much smaller control surfaces and a huge reduction in control moments, and that is the plane they made their first full circles and figure eights with...

 

That is the plane they took to Europe on tour to show everyone that they actually did it culminating in the Paris airshow.... No less than the great Santos Dumont was dumbstruck when they launched the Flyer III and went out over the field then banked into a smooth left turn and returned to where they launched...

 

His exclamation was "We are BEATEN! they actually did it" Everyone else in the world was still working on inherent stability and steering rudders for everything... (but they knew that control was the thing they were seeking and hadn't reached yet)

 

The first flyer had huge control surfaces simply cause they didn't know any better... They were still figuring the mechanics out....

 

Smaller control surfaces work much more efficiently in creating lift and drag cause that is how an airplane is controlled in flight.... (it has nothing to do with directing the airstream and everything to do with directed controlled lift)

Edited December 2, 2022 by Egilman

[Dave_E]

Getting pretty technical. 😆 I love it. I worked with so many people in my aviation career over the years that had no idea of the science behind the how their jets worked. Very good history, thank you! 👍😀

[popeye the sailor]

the French biplanes also had small rudders.  looking at the makeup of the Fokker rudder shows that they utilized the air channeled over both planes - top and bottom.   it shows that looking at different planes of this era,  each manufacturer had their own distinct design.  the earliest design thought was based on the kite.......without a tail,  it flew erratic........but with a tail added,  it flew straight.  I believe it was the Chinese who firs came out with the box kite.....this design was used for the Wright Bros. plane,  as well as the early bombers......the Vickers Vimy and the Hadley Page.   Junkers had their ideas.......even with the Junkers JU187 with the rudder inverted.  the Beechcraft Bonanza utilized the stabilizers to perform both functions....there were a couple other planes that were configured like this.  some even had multiple rudders.  the stabilizer performs the horizontal aspect and the rudder performed the straight ahead aspects........in some planes,  it depended how they were fixed to give the best performance.  I'm certainly not a whiz with this,  but the base aspect was the overall weight of the plane and what it would take to get it and keep it aloft.  the Me 262 is a good example of high stabilizer placement....rate of climb and maneuverability were greatly improved.  most jets have tall rudders.....with air speed they could go,  they needed more rudder surface to be as nimble as they are.  note that on some,  the stabilizers are almost,  or level with the trailing edges of the wings.......this streamlined the horizontal aspects.  but yes,  the amount of surface guided how they handled in the air........in spite of this,  the D VII,  the D VIII,  and the Dr 1 flew very well.  if the Dr1 and the D VIII hadn't suffered from wing fatigue,  they would have been great planes.

[Egilman]

Dennis, the revolution that was the Fokker rudder was that it was almost a live tail, it had a full third of its surface area ahead of it's pivot point.... the small forward stabilizer and larger rudder surface split the airflow between live tail and rudder, the small lower end that provided the sideways lift was accentuated by the much larger live surface above it that applied airstream force to the lift function.... Kinda like a booster to the moment of force applied to the yaw... That's why they were so maneuverable, they could turn in their own wingspan...

 

It's also what put the extra stress on the upper wings of the Dr.1 and the D.VIII.... The D.VII on the other hand didn't suffer from the stress issue because of the strut bracing design which imparted all the lateral twisting stress into the main lower box wing spar.... (which was capable of handling 7 G's laterally as tested by the Smithsonian after the war)

[mtaylor]

One thing of note...  the Wright's were one of the first, if not the first, to build and use a wind tunnel for testing models.  The wind tunnel still exists in the AF Museum in Dayton, Ohio.  Memory is a bit foggy but that be a replica with the original in the Smithsonian.

[Egilman]

2 hours ago, mtaylor said:

The wind tunnel still exists in the AF Museum in Dayton, Ohio

They were the first.... (to successfully devise and use one in accurate aerodynamic research)

 

That Tunnel at the AF Museum is their 1916 wind tunnel, they used it for airfoil and drag research at their Dayton lab during WWI.... (at the time, it was the most powerful wind tunnel on the planet, capable of 175 sustained MPH)

 

Their original 1901 wind tunnel which they devised and used to rewrite (and correct) Otto Lilienthal's table of pressures, no longer exists... I believe there is a replica at the Smithsonian....

Edited December 2, 2022 by Egilman