Your wooden kit progression - go big, or keep learning/practicing?

[Esap]

It is a common line of advice here to be careful when starting the hobby, especially when working with wood for example if you haven't before. Don't just jump into building the Victory, Agamemnon, or upcoming Indefatigable. Start small.
This is good advice - it helps you know that you will enjoy the hobby, can stick with it and persevere through the tough parts to finish a kit, and make your mistakes and do your learning on a cheaper kit so that when you do splash out, you can do the expensive "dream kit" justice.
 

The difficulty, I find, is that it isn't clear how much learning/practice is "enough", and this can be demoralising if a very particular kit has taken somebody's fancy. Some kits are harder than others of course and some particularly hard or even flawed, but often, advice is to have completed "many" other projects first before starting Grand Kit X.
If your dream build is kit X, how long do you really have to practice/wait before being able to start it with a reasonable chance of a good outcome? If we are too conservative, and suggest to new entrants to the hobby that it will be many projects and likely 4+ years before they should think about starting their dream kit, that will demotivate people, and drive them away, many who may well have been able to succeed in spite of the challenge. There is something to be said in the realms of motivation, perseverance, and satisfaction regarding building a kit you particularly wanted to build, vs building something because you felt you had to in order to "level up". Of course, many in this situation may indeed NOT be able to overcome the challenge if they move too fast, and therein lies the problem. How to know?

To help in understanding for relatively new modellers, so they can better judge if the time is right to take the next step after completing their first, second, or third projects, I would like to try get at what specifics you found you learned along the way on your journey to more complex, grander kits - experience that really made a difference.
Vanguard models have descriptions on their kits regarding the level of experience required, which are great to have there, but I find these are not specific enough and think more detail on your personal experiences would be helpful to new modellers asking themselves these questions. 
 

What did you notice, with your 2nd and 3rd kits perhaps, that made huge impacts to your skill level on later builds?
 

Also, for those that perhaps shortcut the process and jumped from their first kit straight into a huge complex one, what aspects did you find hardest? Which particular skills were most essential but not necessarily fully developed?
Finally, for the most experienced among us, who perhaps notice time and again the same mistakes playing out on build logs, what do you see as the most essential skills being developed in this journey that can be missing after only a single small project?

[Jaager]

This is probably about as unique to each person as it gets.

Thinking about it - two of the broad groups  probably are:

Those whose goal is to build an impressive model for display and then move on.  They probably have an unrealistic preconception that wooden models are similar to plastic - just with different materials.

 

Those who are interested in ship modeling in general.  No one particular vessel is their raison d'etre.  Some of the first group become converts to this second one.

 

Starting small is a wise approach for both groups. 

 

Most of the first group probably do not accomplish their original objective because this realm of ours is far more complicated and involved than imagined.

Any kind of rule of progression thru difficulty level would probably not mesh with their degree of patience.

 

For the second group, the journey is purpose.

 

Moving up to a difficulty that exceeds skills  - probably attenuates most of the first group.  For the second, it just means shelving the difficult project and selecting a less difficult one.

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I've always learned from mistakes and also by observing others.  I used to watch my dad build RC aircraft the old 'stick built' way - and after a while he built me a small work bench to try and put what I observed to use on a rubber powered plane.  'Seems whether wooden airplane or boat, learning to cut with either X-Acto or saw is essential - as is pinning, gluing and using files or sandpaper.  Finishes/painting is yet another area to experiment with.

 

  Learning how much one can bend various thicknesses of different woods without breaking comes in handy - as well as effective use of soaking.  But that knack wasn't acquired until I broke a few pieces, or over-soaked wood for wet bending.  And 'thinking through' how something has to go together can allow one to get by with less reliance on instruction sheets.  Only by doing things in note the best order imparted the insight of how to do better next time.  As mistakes were made, I learned likely remedial actions/reworking as needed.  The results were not always 'pretty', but the journey of learning was engaging.

 

  So I'd say that for most anyone past their teens, one 'middle sized' intermediate ship kit can be enough to tackle something big - perhaps even a 'dream ship' ... for that journey will likely take a couple-three years or so (depending on life's demands).  

 

  I remember one day when I was servicing my Schwinn bicycle - you know, the old-school 'one speed' kind (three-speed on the handlebar was for girls).  I'd taken the rear wheel off to free the chain for cleaning and re-oiling, then I had to replace the wheel and tighten the nut onto the central bolt.  But how 'tight' is tight supposed to be?  I kept tightening, noting how much force it took ... then tightening some more ... then it was much harder to get it any tighter until ... it suddenly got looser!

 

  What just happened, I thought, as I took the nut right off in my hand.  The threads inside the nut were 'stripped', as the manufacturer wisely designed the shaft's external threads to be harder than that of standard nuts for 3/8 UNC.  That way, the NUT would be the thing to fail - which is much easier to replace than the wheel axil bolt.  EPIPHANY, it truly was, so I went through my dad's jar of spare nuts and bolts to find one that would suit.  Then I tightened the replacement - remembering the force it took to get the nut tight, but NOT so much as to strip the replacement.  From that happy afternoon, I was 'calibrated' as to just how much to tighten common sized fasteners without stripping the threads ... and since then it hasn't happened again.

 

  That's how one learns, and not letting failure dampen enthusiasm - but rather letting it point to wiser ways going forward.

[mtaylor]

There is something to be said for "starting small".   I've seen some jump right in with say a Victory and succeed and others.... walk away after a short period of time.   We have tons of build logs that I would call "dead".  The builder gave up.   I would say, start a model that you want or at least buy and put it on the shelf for "later".   Only the builder can determine if it's over their head.  There is a learning curve and it can be steep depending on what skills and willingness to to learn you have.

 

For me, my first purchase was a Billings Vasa.  Opened the box, took one look and put it away.  Started small with a smaller kit, two masts, no guns.   Pushed myself and finished it.  Then started the Vasa and next was a heavy kit bash.  Back then there wasn't a WWW (there were listservs, at the time using dial-up, but I digress)  so basically I was on my own.  

 

The reason for starting small is simple... learn as you build. Develop good habits.  Learn things like cutting and bending and shaping wood.  That way you're not buying tools and making investments that if you find out that model shipbuilding isn't for you would have been a waste of money.

 

Above all, find and understand your limits and then build from there.  It's journey, not quick walk in the part.  A very rewarding and fun journey though..

 

We really can't answer to everyone's needs and levels as we don't know them.   Joining a club with other builders is a great thing but if you're in area where there are no clubs....  it can kind of like wandering the desert unless you've found a place like MSW. So read other build logs, not just your own.  Learn from what others have done and how they do it.  Enjoy the friendships that are made along the way.  

 

    

 

 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

I am not one of the proceed slowly group.  I built one kit- a Model Shipways “Yellow Box” Harriet Lane many many years ago.  I then scratch built a 1:48 scale bugeye; a pretty poor model, eventually given away.  Since then I have scratch built 8 more models that I am proud to display.  I am working on my ninth.

 

I believe that many models are not finished because the builder loses interest, not because he lacks the needed skills.  The major difference between a cutter and HMS Victory is repetition.  There is, therefore, no point in spending money on a kit if you lack the interest in the subject to see it through to completion.

 

For me, the appeal of scratch building is that I can pick my subjects, building materials and techniques to achieve my vision.

 

Roger

[Esap]

Very much appreciate the responses so far, it is certainly a nuanced topic, but don't forget, if you can, to also note which things you felt you learned early on that really made a big difference when you came to the more complex projects.

> We really can't answer to everyone's needs and levels as we don't know them

I completely agree and that isn't really the point of this thread, to be clear - I hope to have people share their own experiences, and hopefully some key things they learned along the way, so that newer modellers can help understand their own journey, and perhaps gain more confidence about the level they are operating at.

It is definitely about the journey, not just the end product, but I think it is quite common for new modellers to have some goal in mind. Hopefully this thread can help them understand what it takes and what key experience really does help most in getting there. Thanks all!

[Montaigne]

The worst thing to lose when starting out with something - anything - is interest, and the most common way to lose it is by taking on very large projects from the start. It’s not necessarily that we don’t have it in us to go through with them, but rather that they are more likely to present so many challenging obstacles, one after the other and then the next, that we might just not enjoy it after a while. Model ship building in particular presents frequent obstacles, many of which are a matter of experience; not just how to solve them by example, but also how to come up with creative solutions for when there are no examples.

Having said that: many consider challenging problem solving itself as part of the fun. I don’t think there’s a general rule applying in these matters, only cautionary tales. 

 

I’m not replying from the perspective of having built many models, in fact I’m starting out myself with model ship building. However, I’ve done a lot of professional artistic work throughout life acquiring various skills, as well as grown up with a father who was a gifted model ship builder. 

 

I had plans to start with OcCre’s The Endurance, but reconsidered and will instead start with the much simpler Model Shipways Bounty Launch (“simpler” especially considering that I’m planning a major kit bashing of OcCre’s Endurance). 

The Bounty Launch will be kit bashed too, but not as extensively. 

 

After the Endurance I’m planning to build a complete scratch model of the C G Pettersson designed motor yacht Wiking X, which as a model as such will be less complicated than for example the Endurance, however creating everything from scratch using 3D CAD will be a huge undertaking (although at least I have previous experience with 3D CAD). This summer I’m planning to visit the Sjöhistoriska maritime museum in Stockholm to take all the necessary orthographic shots of the Wiking X that they have on display, and I’ve already got their permission to climb onboard for some shots. Using existing footage I’ve already started creating parts in 3D of its various equipment. It will be a long term project; years and years. 

 

Point being: From model to model I’m planning to level up pretty steep. But that’s usually what works for me. 

 

There are other things related to model ship building that can also help further develop skill sets. I’ve started to create a 3D sculpture of the original Cutty Sark figurehead. The Cutty Sark was recently equipped with a new figurehead: the third version based on the original figurehead design by Hercules Linton. I found this story intriguing, how the latest incredibly gifted sculptor Andy Peters made his own interpretation of Linton’s fairly basic sketch, and thought: I want to do something like that too. So I’m creating my own version in 3D, which I intend to use as a maquette for something like a foot long wooden sculpture made by hand. 

 

However a beginner should decide to approach starting out: keep it fun, would be my first advice. 

[tkay11]

I suppose it depends on expectations and the types of interest people have. As a boy I had put together many plastic kits, starting with Airfix aeroplanes, and ending with Thermopylae and Constitution. It was the complexity that I had been attracted to as well as the satisfaction of ending up with something that pleased me. I stopped when about 16 as I was drawn into studying.

 

When later, in 2012, I was thinking about how to transition from retirement I looked for something that would occupy mental and practical skills. I remembered the complexity of rigging and I thought that I might dip in to wooden ship modelling to test it out.

 

Research came first. I quickly found MSW and a couple of books, decided on a kit (because I didn't want to spend too much on tools in case I didn't find it suited me), chose one that had lots of people making it and the very few who took the time to explain how they approached each step and overcame the problems, and quickly found how to modify it using original plans. I was hooked, and immediately after completing it decided to build only using plans. It suited me in all the ways I had wanted.

 

So my thoughts on this discussion, a discussion that has reappeared often and in different guises since when I joined MSW, are that it is not so much starting with a kit that counts (although that can play a part) but why a person chooses and continues with it as a hobby in the first place. People try out and either continue or not with all sorts of activity all the time.

 

People have been making models of ships with or without plans for millennia and also learned from others as well as their own experience. Many of those would have given up after their first attempts. This may have had nothing to do with complexity or difficulty. Some people just don't find it interesting, or suitable to their temperament and skill. They may take up hobbies that are just as complex, such as Russian Icon painting, or metal train modelling, or translating, or pottery, or playing a musical instrument.

 

Or they may just sigh and settle down to a nice evening's sitting in front of the telly.

 

Ship modelling (as a hobby or as a profession) is, and always has been just a niche interest, and there is no harm in that.

 

Tony

 

 

[DavidG]

an experienced modeler reaches better results in the fraction of time it takes for the less experienced one. there are lot of techniques involved in ship modelling we use - how to properly bend wood, cut straight corners, how to paint, copper a hull, turn spars, level the shrouds, tie ratlines, keep a logical building sequence, find proper sources for research, etc. If all these skills have to be developed on a large model, it may take too much time leading to loss of interest. It is also likely, the outcome will not reach the level of required perfection which is demotivating. 

When I built plastic models, I usually had some goal with the respective kit, like paint it using an airbrush. For the next one, do the decals right. Next one - prepare the gloss finish. Then use aftermarket parts, and so on.

For wood ships, anyone taking a multi-year big project, should be reasonably confident with the basics of planking and understand how rigging works - the build process is long enough, even without learning basic skills.

This gradual approach worked for me - first ship - a nice try. For the second, I built a reasonable out of the box model and understood what is involved. For third one, I enhanced the kit and properly researched the rigging part. The previous experience pays off, which makes progress, which is in turn, provides motivation.

Edited February 8, 2023 by DavidG

[Cathead]

The advice to "buy ahead", getting a kit you might be interested in someday so you have it on hand as inspiration, comes with a caveat. Hobbies move forward and develop, and if you wait too long, you may end up with an outdated kit. Model ship kit design has progressed amazingly in the last decade, at least among the more conscientious, forward-thinking manufacturers, to the point that older kits can feel impossibly clunky in comparison (poor materials, poor instructions, etc.). This is similar to other hobbies like model railroading. If you come back to that now, after dabbling in, say, the '90s, you probably won't want your old '90s trains from their dusty box in the closet, because their quality is so much worse and the options available now are so much better in every respect (except one, which I'm about to get to).

 

People also change. You may be sure now that you want to build a USS Constitution someday, but after a couple years in the hobby working your way up, you may develop a fascination with steamboats or aircraft carriers or Chinese fishing boats, and you'll want that money and shelf space back. Or, as Roger suggested, you may end up diving into scratchbuilding and never going back to kits. 

 

The caveat here is price. Kits go up in price just like everything else over time, and you may well be better off buying something now for ten years later, IF you're sure it's something you'll want and build ten years from now. If not, if it just ends up on a shelf destined for eBay or the dumpster someday, it may not be worth it. Don't make your kids clean out your closet full of unbuilt kits.

 

So my strong advice is that, at whatever rate you progress, go one model at a time, whether it's a big jump or a little one.

 

9 hours ago, Esap said:

don't forget, if you can, to also note which things you felt you learned early on that really made a big difference when you came to the more complex projects

What helped me most in my progression wasn't necessarily developing physical skills, as important as that was, but rather developing a mental understanding of the history and engineering of vessel design. My first scratchbuilt steamboat model was terrible (at least below the main deck) because I had no idea how hulls worked and hadn't tried to understand (just plowed ahead ignorant), so just made it like a barge. After that, I took a deep dive into the history of steamboat development and design, and once I actually understood the vessels, was able to make much better models. The same was true for other projects: even doing a basic Viking ship kit, I took the time to research and understand how and why these ships were built, which let me apply and develop skills toward improving that kit. Building a revenue cutter, I worked to understand rigging and was able to make significant improvements to the kit's rigging plan. The bonus is that I value each project more when I understand it, and it isn't just a shallow display piece.

 

To again use model railroading as an example, even more important than physical modeling skill is an intellectual understanding of how railroads work. If you can design a layout that will "feel" real and represent realistic railroad operations (whether complex or simple), and if you understand which equipment goes together, you'll likely enjoy the hobby more than just running trains in a circle, no matter how good your scenery and weathering are.

 

So to summarize this long-winded post, in my opinion the most important skill to develop is intellectual curiosity, and that should be applied one project at a time to allow for a flexible future and a minimum of waste.

[Roger Pellett]

Well said, Eric!

[Oldsalt1950]

Kit progression or lack thereof is dependent on many factors. Some are withing our control others are not. Money, time and space to model are some of the basics. In addition you have skill sets, medium you are working in plastic, card. wood, kit or scratch built, scope of project or complexity and familiarity with the subject. We each have our own motivators and certain areas we excel at, along with areas we need to improve. There are very few of us that are good at everything. We each have to decide when we are in over our heads and when to seek help or guidance. MSW is a great resource and you can find a solution to any problem if you know where to look and how to ask.

 

Jim

 

[allanyed]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:28 PM, Jaager said:

They probably have an unrealistic preconception that wooden models are similar to plastic - just with different materials.

Jaager I think that is still true to a great extent but to me it seems to be to a lesser extent than in years past.  Fortunately/unfortunately, depending on an individual's preference, with modern tools for cutting/forming parts, other than the materials, there seems to be a smaller and smaller difference between wooden and plastic assemblies.  Examples are laser cut spiled planks and 3D printed parts.  No right or wrong, better or worse, just different.  In the words of Robert Allen Zimmerman, The Times They Are Changin'.   

Allan

Edited February 9, 2023 by allanyed

[Knocklouder]

From a newbie's stand point: I am ready to start my dream ship, the Pegasus. But I won't, lol. For those who know me, I joined MSW in 2021 June. I decided to get a different hobby when I turned 65. I retired when I was 58. After I turned 65, I started to think about a new hobby. I looked online and ships came up. So I got excited about model ships, that lead me to the Santa Maria. I bought one and when it arrived, I opened the box an said those famous words "what have I done, no way this is happening."  I googled how to make a ship and was lead here .

  I have a hard time reading and writing and with computers lol. But I figured my desire to learn what I needed to know to get the ship I desired to make was worth overcoming a few obstacles.  So here goes....

  I agree with everything everyone has said.  There was no way I was going to be able to do what I was looking at.  I joined MSW, and my son helped with the computer, reading and writing I was left on my own, but the First Mate edits a LOT lol.

   My first ship went well because of the logs, and those brave few members who answered my first questions. LOL

  But I wished I had started something just a little less complex then the Santa Maria. I had to learn so much so fast and was, I guess you could say, a little inpatient lol. 

 For me, if you want to be a modeler, learn what you have to do, build what you want to build and learn the ways others have done theirs . And you will know when it is time to move up. I have learned that planking is key. If you make a good hull, you're there. The rest of it is fun stuff to make...sails, rigging, masts, painting and did I mention  planking. lol.

  As for starting the Pegasus, I will get to it lol. I just don't want to rush through building my Mayflower. Then I am going to do a Sea of Galilee boat , then a Viking long boat , La Nina, and finally Pegasus. I can not wait. lol

  I am sure to get many years of enjoyment on my journey. I hope this makes a little sense...start slow but start.  When you get going,  GO.  Its unlimited to how far you can take your models. It's up to you to decide how well you want to make them. As I have said, for me it's about just building something that looks like a boat lol . It might not be the way to do it but it will have my own style.  It's about having fun too, mostly for me lol  . And at some point they will start to look like ships.         ok going back to hide in my logs lol

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Build whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

Ensure it is a subject that you like and are interested in and will stay interested in.

 

Zu Monfeld recommends something like a cog for a starter model.

 

I recommend a smaller boat or ship like a jolly boat kit, a cutter, a schooner or a brig.

 

You will find out what you like pretty quickly.

 

Never be afraid to try a new type of model.

 

But, as has been said earlier, it is best to build them one at a time.

 

And, case in point with Mark’s comment, I am one of the people with a semi-dead Victory build.

 

I started it six years ago.

 

Finishing it would not be particularly difficult at this point, I just do not have the interest.

 

It still needs close to a year to finish and I discovered that my ship model building interests lie elsewhere.

It will most likely be resurrected at some point, but not for a long while.

 

[robert952]

I don't have a lot to add to what others have said.  Start small and have an attitude towards learning.  I made the noob error of starting out on a big project and got overwhelmed.  But I did not get discouraged.  I realized I had a lot to learn.  Then I started reading build logs and other threads, magazine, books and attending workshops.  (I have what I think is a pretty decent reference library, too.)  
 

One piece of advise:  don't be overcritical of your own work.  My family looks at my models and think them very nicely done.  But they have even less experience and exposure to the hobby than I have.  

 

However, I can look at an older build.  At the time I finished the model, I was pleased with the effort.  Today, several years later, I am still pleased with what I accomplished.  (It was the Dinghy by Midwest Models.)

 

However, I am also proud that I can look at the model and see areas that "aren't quite right" and things "I can do better next time."  I use a critical eye without being overcritical.  I think that shows the gain in knowledge over the years.  I just have to practice and improve the skills.  

 

One other piece of advise:  while moving to bigger and more complex models is an admirable goal, don't overlook the potential of other small projects.  Bigger may not always be better.

 

I have seen those I consider super model builders do some great things with smaller projects by using advanced techniques.  You don't need to scratch build a complete model.  You can learn and explore some of those aspects of advanced model making by 'kit bashing.'  Improve on the components in the kit to make it more historically accurate or change the aesthetics.  Explore 'third party' add-ons and material.  Some examples I have seen are use of different rigging blocks, applying a different approach to making sails, and making components closer to proper scale.  They also provide a reasonably priced way to learn over buying a 'the great big boat' model.  (I'd have to see if I could find it again.  But I was fascinated over the approach a modeler took building a detailed lobster pot.  Even something like that teaches new ways to approach a model and provide learning opportunities.)

 

It all goes back to the idea several expressed here that we have to be willing to learn as we evolve.  
 

Just keep in mind... you should enjoy the journey.  

[Joe100]

Enjoying the process is what it’s all about. Do I love every aspect of building a ship? Certainly not, but I don’t let it ruin my fun. I build mostly steel ships from scratch, and I really don’t enjoy turrets and antiaircraft guns since they’re fiddly and repetitive, but I don’t despise the work. I try to make it interesting, and I’ll usually build those section of the model first, so it’s behind me before I even start on the hull. 
 

So often I see modelers elsewhere, especially plastic modelers, who seem to be miserable. A small amount of photo etched parts and they’re ready to give up. I’ve had a few of these frustrated modelers ask me which wood ship kits I’d recommend. Of course my response is something along the lines of “if photo etched handrails upset you, then you’re really on for a treat!”

 

I really do think all modelers should start more simple. An armed cutter is a great place to start. A single mast, smaller hull, maybe 4 cannon at most usually; a nice place to learn every discipline. Tools are also important. I don’t think new folks realize the helpfulness of good tools. 
 

I think everyone’s mileage will be varied, but tools and the basic skills are the bedrock. 

[Cathead]

9 hours ago, Joe100 said:

A small amount of photo etched parts and they’re ready to give up. I’ve had a few of these frustrated modelers ask me which wood ship kits I’d recommend.

Not all wooden ships have PE. I'm one of those who hates working with metal, and there's a fair argument that I just haven't learned how to do it properly. But I think the broader point here is that starting small and/or dabbling also lets people learn what they're good at or not, and what they like to do or not. I've learned over and over that I'm happiest working in wood, and that's helped me focus (for the most part) on projects I'll enjoy. There's a fair counter-argument that learning new skills helps keep the hobby fresh, but it's still worth learning/knowing your strengths and weaknesses.