mtaylor Posted April 8, 2023 Share #121 Posted April 8, 2023 The bird looks absolutely great, Andy. Both look perfect together in that photo. Canute, Jack12477, Egilman and 3 others 6 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canute Posted April 9, 2023 Share #122 Posted April 9, 2023 Your Tiffie turned out great, Andy. Looking forward to the Beaufighter build. I need to find a radar version. My thing about 2 seat radar equipped interceptors. 😁 realworkingsailor, Old Collingwood, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote Ken Started: MS Bounty Longboat, On Hold: Heinkel USS Choctaw paper Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1 Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section Member Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted April 9, 2023 Author Share #123 Posted April 9, 2023 13 minutes ago, Canute said: Your Tiffie turned out great, Andy. Looking forward to the Beaufighter build. I need to find a radar version. My thing about 2 seat radar equipped interceptors. 😁 Thanks! The Airfix Beaufighter kit contains the parts for the “thimble nose” version (which I think is the radar version you are referring to). The included decals for that version are of a Portuguese airplane (in addition to the RCAF markings), but there’s always the aftermarket. Andy Jack12477, Egilman, Old Collingwood and 3 others 5 1 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canute Posted April 9, 2023 Share #124 Posted April 9, 2023 I believe there were 2 versions, one with visible aerials and the other with the thimble nose. Interesting that they included both in that kit. Thanks for the steer.👍 realworkingsailor, Old Collingwood, Egilman and 3 others 6 Quote Ken Started: MS Bounty Longboat, On Hold: Heinkel USS Choctaw paper Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1 Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section Member Nautical Research Guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted April 9, 2023 Author Share #125 Posted April 9, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Canute said: I believe there were 2 versions, one with visible aerials and the other with the thimble nose. Interesting that they included both in that kit. Thanks for the steer.👍 I’m not sure, but if you are looking to make a version with the visible aerials, you might have to also look at a conversion kit for a flat tail. The Airfix TF Mk X has a dihedral tail, I believe the earlier marks (Mk I, Mk II) had flat tails. Edit: the dihedral tail was introduced with the Mk VI variant. Not a big deal, there are conversions for the tail: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/aml-amla-72-050-bristol-beaufighter--1348014 Or a Merlin version (which does include aerials): https://www.scalemates.com/kits/cmk-7489-beaufighter-mkii-early-type-conversion-set--1403300 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/cmk-7490-beaufighter-mkii-late-type-conversion-set--1415240 And there is a PE set for just the aerials: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/owl-owlpe-72001-radar-aerials-al-mk-iv--1011011 Andy Edited April 9, 2023 by realworkingsailor Old Collingwood, mtaylor, Canute and 2 others 4 1 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJohnson Posted April 9, 2023 Share #126 Posted April 9, 2023 19 hours ago, realworkingsailor said: Thanks EG! My railroad modelling is in 1/87, so this 1/72 stuff is not too bad 😁 Thanks Dan! I’ve read through Beaufighter the instructions, I see exactly what you mean. Almost looks like if you were to look at it the wrong way it would crash like a house of cards. Might have to embed some brass wire between the more critical parts to keep things secure. Andy Another great build Andy, the Beaufiighter is a good kit, I have built a couple, including the thimble radar nose version. Old Collingwood, Egilman, realworkingsailor and 3 others 6 Quote Andrew Current builds:- HM Cutter Trial - Vanguard models (1/64), HMAV Bounty - Caldercraft (1/64), Hawker-Typhoon-1b-"Car-Door" - Airfix (1/24) Completed (Ship):- "Nisha" - Vanguard Models (1/64), HMS Orestes (Mars) - Caldercraft (1/64), HM Cutter Sherbourne - Caldercraft (1/64), TSS Earnslaw - Paper Shipwright (1/250), Puffer "Starlight" - Paper Shipwright (1/250) Completed (Non-Ship):-Blackburn Buccaneer S.2C - Airfix (1/48), Bristol Beaufort - Airfix (1/72), Mosquito B.XVI - Airfix (1/72), , Sea-Harrier-FRS1 - Airfix (1/72), Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat - Airfix (1/24), De Havilland Chipmunk T.10 - Airfix (1/48), Flamborough Head Lighthouse - Paper Shipwright (1/250) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javlin Posted April 10, 2023 Share #127 Posted April 10, 2023 Andy you do some some work/paint and 1/72!! Egilman, Old Collingwood, mtaylor and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landlubber Mike Posted April 11, 2023 Share #128 Posted April 11, 2023 Really great work Andy!! Excellent build and paint job - congrats! mtaylor, realworkingsailor, Canute and 3 others 6 Quote Mike Current Wooden builds: Amati/Victory Pegasus MS Charles W. Morgan Euromodel La Renommèe Plastic builds: SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48 Five Star Yaeyama 1/700 Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32 Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72 IJN Notoro 1/700 Akitsu Maru 1/700 Completed builds : Caldercraft Brig Badger Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700 Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350 F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72 Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48 Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48 Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16 Terminated build: HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn) On the shelf: Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits Future potential scratch builds: HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted April 19, 2023 Author Share #129 Posted April 19, 2023 So, I’ve run in to a little frustration. (Not with my tiffy, though. It’s safely on the shelf) After closely examining the parts of my recently acquired Beaufighter kit, I decided that a little upgrade was required in some areas. Namely the cockpit details and the engine exhausts (and the wheels too, but only as a bonus, the kit wheels are okay-ish). So I went hunting around for what was available, I already have the Yahu instrument panel, but I found the resin offerings from CMK, especially the cockpit set, look really nice. This is where things get annoying. While I’ve been able to find CMK detail sets all over the place, I haven’t been able to find a hobby retailer that offers a decent price on shipping (and has the item in stock). Squadron hobbies has all the items I want in stock, but for a $23USD order (of small detail parts), they’re asking $24 in shipping. Uh.. nope! Hannants: same thing (although their quote was in Canadian $) Special Hobby: ditto (back to USD, or EUR) BNA: out of stock ($11.50 est. for shipping, though, so if they ever get back in stock…) Sprue Brothers: no stock (although a more expensive Eduard PE detail set would have cost the same after shipping) Wheels and Wings (in Toronto): no stock Ebay: Nope. Not even. For what it’s worth, I’ve ordered larger quantities of detail parts from Chuck, but the shipping cost was about $10 USD (sometimes less). I don’t know if I should be frustrated with the hobby shops themselves, or the postal services…. If anyone has any suggestions or ideas, that would be great. I would like to up the detail level for this kit, but I really can’t justify the shipping costs. Maybe I should just pour another Scotch and percolate for a while…. Andy Egilman, Canute, CDW and 2 others 5 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king derelict Posted July 12, 2023 Share #130 Posted July 12, 2023 I am very late catching up with this one but it was well worth reading the thread. A beautiful model of a favourite aircraft. The weathering is perfect. Excellent work I came across this article in a recent newsletter. Typhoon reborn (aerosociety.com) Aan mtaylor, Old Collingwood, Egilman and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share #131 Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, king derelict said: I am very late catching up with this one but it was well worth reading the thread. A beautiful model of a favourite aircraft. The weathering is perfect. Excellent work I came across this article in a recent newsletter. Typhoon reborn (aerosociety.com) Aan Thanks Alan! I was vaguely aware that there was something going on with a Typhoon resto, I didn’t know they were actually trying to get it not only airworthy, but with a Sabre engine too, if I catch the gist of your article correctly (repop or resto, doesn’t matter, it would be a thrill just to hear one start up after, what?, sixty something years, @egilman probably knows when the last Sabre engine flew). Andy Jack12477, CDW, king derelict and 2 others 5 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted July 13, 2023 Share #132 Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, realworkingsailor said: @egilman probably knows when the last Sabre engine flew 70 years ago... The last inservice flight of a Sabre engined fighter was a Tempest of the Indian AF in '53... (the RAF had disposed of them by '49) The Napier Sabre had many different experimental models and was installed in a great many experimental aircraft, but the Typhoon & Tempest were the only planes that used them in production... When the last Tempest was put out to the boneyards, the Napier Sabre passed into history... There are currently 6 of them under restoration to flying status and four more in storage capable of being restored.... A sad fate for the most powerful single engined fighter plane ever produced... (Under 10,000 ft that is) Edited July 13, 2023 by Egilman realworkingsailor, Canute, Old Collingwood and 3 others 5 1 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJohnson Posted July 13, 2023 Share #133 Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, realworkingsailor said: Thanks Alan! I was vaguely aware that there was something going on with a Typhoon resto, I didn’t know they were actually trying to get it not only airworthy, but with a Sabre engine too, if I catch the gist of your article correctly (repop or resto, doesn’t matter, it would be a thrill just to hear one start up after, what?, sixty something years, @egilman probably knows when the last Sabre engine flew). Andy Yes there are a few projects on the go, hopefully one or two might make it back into the skies one day. I support the group trying to get RB396 back into the air. Got the hoodie to prove it! 😁 Edited July 13, 2023 by AJohnson king derelict, Jack12477, Canute and 3 others 6 Quote Andrew Current builds:- HM Cutter Trial - Vanguard models (1/64), HMAV Bounty - Caldercraft (1/64), Hawker-Typhoon-1b-"Car-Door" - Airfix (1/24) Completed (Ship):- "Nisha" - Vanguard Models (1/64), HMS Orestes (Mars) - Caldercraft (1/64), HM Cutter Sherbourne - Caldercraft (1/64), TSS Earnslaw - Paper Shipwright (1/250), Puffer "Starlight" - Paper Shipwright (1/250) Completed (Non-Ship):-Blackburn Buccaneer S.2C - Airfix (1/48), Bristol Beaufort - Airfix (1/72), Mosquito B.XVI - Airfix (1/72), , Sea-Harrier-FRS1 - Airfix (1/72), Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat - Airfix (1/24), De Havilland Chipmunk T.10 - Airfix (1/48), Flamborough Head Lighthouse - Paper Shipwright (1/250) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share #134 Posted July 13, 2023 10 hours ago, Egilman said: A sad fate for the most powerful single engined fighter plane ever produced... (Under 10,000 ft that is) Napier was messing around with adding a multi stage turbo to their engine for high altitude performance, unfortunately this came at the detriment of remedying the flaws of the engine. When English Electric bought Napier, they scrapped the turbo project and concentrated on fixing the engine issues (I suspect the British government may have had something to do with the EE takeover, or, at the very least, the removal of red tape to accelerate the process). I suppose if it wasn’t for the necessities of wartime, the real untapped potential of the Sabre could have been unleashed. Andy Jack12477, Canute, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted July 13, 2023 Share #135 Posted July 13, 2023 51 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said: I suppose if it wasn’t for the necessities of wartime, the real untapped potential of the Sabre could have been unleashed. It wasn't the pressure of war Andy, it was pure technological advancement... the engineering of thrust had far surpassed the relatively simple propeller... At it's highest development the Sabre design was capable of 4500 hp out of a 2500 lb engine... the Typhoon/Tempest could do 475 kts at sea level (full military power) 450 kts at 14k feet... Nothing could touch it at low level not even the fastest spit, mustang, FW, corsair, even the skeeter had to take a back seat to it in pure raw speed... When the Luftwaffe developed low level harassing attacks in '44 using the fastest FW-190 models, the Typhoons and Tempests were vectored to meet the attacks cause they were the only plane capable of catching them... They were coming in at just above sealevel, Below radar, dropping their bombs and running back across the channel.... Couldn't be intercepted cause you didn't know they were coming till you heard the engine roar.... Typhoons would catch them going back across the channel, throttle to the firewall, just above sealevel.... The typhoons would drop onto their tail from 1-2,000 ft and then walk them like they were standing still... No escape for the FW's, can't run, can't manuever, can't hide..... Even the Whittle powered jets of the time couldn't do that.... When the Luftwaffe realized that the bomber missions they were sending out were not returning, the pilots started refusing to fly them... But then it was like most prop planes of the day were average below 20k, (basically the same performance envelope) For example the P-51 is considered to be the best fighter design to come out of the war, but under 20,000ft it wasn't any better than anyone else's best fighter... (and markedly lower performance than the typhoon) It was above 20,000ft where it showed it's true abilities... The Typhoons and Tempests were the exact opposite, they showed their true capabilities below 20,000ft.... (they were actually fastest at sea level the higher they climbed the slower they got) It was an amazing airplane, but raw power in an airplane means speed, and turbines were a huge step forward in that department... Piston engines held on for a long time, but were for the most part replaced by turbines in military applications.... Even in turning the propeller.... AJohnson, Canute, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share #136 Posted July 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Egilman said: It wasn't the pressure of war Andy, it was pure technological advancement... the engineering of thrust had far surpassed the relatively simple propeller... At it's highest development the Sabre design was capable of 4500 hp out of a 2500 lb engine... the Typhoon/Tempest could do 475 kts at sea level (full military power) 450 kts at 14k feet... Nothing could touch it at low level not even the fastest spit, mustang, FW, corsair, even the skeeter had to take a back seat to it in pure raw speed... When the Luftwaffe developed low level harassing attacks in '44 using the fastest FW-190 models, the Typhoons and Tempests were vectored to meet the attacks cause they were the only plane capable of catching them... They were coming in at just above sealevel, Below radar, dropping their bombs and running back across the channel.... Couldn't be intercepted cause you didn't know they were coming till you heard the engine roar.... Typhoons would catch them going back across the channel, throttle to the firewall, just above sealevel.... The typhoons would drop onto their tail from 1-2,000 ft and then walk them like they were standing still... No escape for the FW's, can't run, can't manuever, can't hide..... Even the Whittle powered jets of the time couldn't do that.... When the Luftwaffe realized that the bomber missions they were sending out were not returning, the pilots started refusing to fly them... But then it was like most prop planes of the day were average below 20k, (basically the same performance envelope) For example the P-51 is considered to be the best fighter design to come out of the war, but under 20,000ft it wasn't any better than anyone else's best fighter... (and markedly lower performance than the typhoon) It was above 20,000ft where it showed it's true abilities... The Typhoons and Tempests were the exact opposite, they showed their true capabilities below 20,000ft.... (they were actually fastest at sea level the higher they climbed the slower they got) It was an amazing airplane, but raw power in an airplane means speed, and turbines were a huge step forward in that department... Piston engines held on for a long time, but were for the most part replaced by turbines in military applications.... Even in turning the propeller.... Not arguing that technology leapt ahead during the war and that jet propulsion far outclassed anything that piston power could put out. My point was more towards the fact that, when you look at engine development, other engines were further ahead in development by the time war broke out. The RR Merlin was first run in 1933. They had 6 years to work out kinks and improvements before the outbreak of the war. Six uninterrupted years to commit resources and personnel to refine the manufacturing process and develop effective mass production strategies, and even develop potential successors. The Sabre first run in 1938, and at the time Napier was basically a “boutique” manufacturer. All their engines were hand built by craftsmen. They had no experience with mass production on the levels required by war demands. They also had minimal experience with other new technological elements of the Sabre engine, like the sleeve valves. And they had all of a year and a half to figure all these things out before the buzzer went off. Oh, and RR was slagging Napier at the Air Ministry, because they were legitimately afraid of what the Sabre could do. Napier didn’t finally catch a break from the government until Beaverbrook arrived in 1940. Andy Canute, Old Collingwood, Jack12477 and 1 other 4 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted July 13, 2023 Share #137 Posted July 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said: RR was slagging Napier at the Air Ministry, because they were legitimately afraid of what the Sabre could do. Yep, the production front.... (chuckle) The combat over money and contracts was even more intense than the combat against the enemy.... Wartime pressures be damned.... It was worse in Britain than it was here, but it was just as intense... For example, the entire production of P&W R2800 engines was allocated to the production lines at Vought for the corsair, the production of R2600 engines were allocated to Grumman for the Hellcat... The Hellcat was a dog with the Wright R2600 and was close to being canceled by the navy, it was barely more capable than the Wildcat it was replacing... The naval engineers working with Grumman on the Hellcat were well aware of the P&W R2800 and it's potential, but also of the orders that they were reserved for Vought and the Corsair... So, one of the engineers and one of the project directors arranged for two P&W R2800's to disappear from the deliveries to Vought and show up at Grumman... Once the Hellcat had the R2800 installed, it surpassed anyone's conception of what a fighter plane could do up to that time... (equaling the corsair's performance) The commercial powers that be, (in any nation) could care less about the war effort despite all their public pronouncements to the opposite... they only care about how many bucks are being deposited into their bank accounts or how many zeros are tacked onto the figure in the latest contract... And if they can lock down a government agency as their single source supplier, that's commercial heaven for them, equivalent to winning WWII all by themselves... Vought thought they had it in the bag over Grumman, and if the R2800 didn't mate with the F6F well, Grumman would have suffered the consequences.... Thankfully they did and a superlative fighter plane resulted and Grumman got all the accolades... Vought, and their commissioned investor allies in the navy, weren't very happy that the P&W R2800 supply was being split with Grumman.... (eventually split with Republic for the P-47 as well) But that one little violation of the contract and procurement rules saved naval aviation.... When the Corsair was going thru it's well known teething problems '43-'44, the Hellcat became the preeminent navy fighter plane, and a good thing it did.... Industrial warfare knows no battlefield or national preference and the only results that count are the sheckles in the treasure box.... Yes RR definitely wanted to bury the Napier Sabre... Old Collingwood, Canute, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share #138 Posted July 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Egilman said: Yes RR definitely wanted to bury the Napier Sabre... Look up Rolls Royce Eagle 😉 Andy Canute, Old Collingwood, Egilman and 2 others 5 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted July 13, 2023 Share #139 Posted July 13, 2023 54 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said: Rolls Royce Eagle Yep there were quite a few engines like that in that time period... Would have been very interesting to see the design line mature in development... There was a lot of promise in multi cylinder, multi crankshaft sleeve valve engines... Mainly cause the valve arrangements were simpler and more mechanically efficient... There was the Wright R-2160 Tornado, Pratt & Whitney X-1800, Pratt & Whitney XH-3130, and several others on this side of the pond.... The design limits of piston ICE's is the valve configuration... Flow through the combustion chamber is the limiting factor and adding mechanical complexity, (push rod valve trains) reduces efficiency... Believe it or not, sleeve valves were well known in the steam engine community back in the 1880's... Finally getting around to them in the ICE community in the late 30's isn't brilliant engineering, it illustrates how slow development of technology can happen in an environment of "this is working and people are paying for it so why change"... By the time they realized the greater efficiency of sleeve valves coupled with lower reciprocating mass, the axial flow turbojet was running... no valves and no reciprocating masses to deal with... RR continued to explore the concept into the late 50's but none of them ever took flight... The commonly held engineering belief today is that ICE's are never going to reach the efficiency of a turbine engine.... Similar to a pure turbo jet is never going to match the thrust ratio of a rotating propeller or fan (fan jet)... Engine efficiency is all about flow.... And for piston engines the amazing RR and Napier developments still represent the pinnacle of high power piston engine development... mtaylor, king derelict, realworkingsailor and 2 others 5 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share #140 Posted July 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Egilman said: Yep there were quite a few engines like that in that time period... Would have been very interesting to see the design line mature in development... There was a little government assisted industrial espionage. From what I understand, the Air Ministry passed on quite a bit of the Napier’s technological information along to RR… The sleeve valve came about after a 1927 paper by Harry Ricardo that calculated a maximum HP limit for poppet valve engines. (Not sure if that was for single or multi valve engines, the prevalence today of DOHC multi-valve car engines might suggest only the former). The sleeve valve was a workaround that allowed greater optimal airflow, thus bypassing the theoretical HP limitation. Ultimately, as you say a turbine engine will always outperform a comparable reciprocating engine. Partly due to fluid and thermal dynamics, but also due to the energy, and therefore efficiency, loss caused by converting reciprocating motion to rotary motion. I think it’s more fair to think in terms of relative efficiency, rather than absolute, and the Sabre delivered in spades. Andy Canute, Egilman, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted July 13, 2023 Share #141 Posted July 13, 2023 59 minutes ago, realworkingsailor said: I think it’s more fair to think in terms of relative efficiency, rather than absolute, and the Sabre delivered in spades. yep, in it's most powerful incarnation it delivered 2500hp out of a 2100 lb mass... Roughly 1.2 hp per lb... which was above what was considered optimal in the aircraft industry for piston engines making it pound for pound as efficient as the P&W R2800 which was the first to deliver 1to1 hp to weight... the R2800 eventually delivered 2250 hp which put it in the same class... I would have loved to see the Sabre developed into it's maximum potential... Today it's all about fuel consumption efficiency when it come to ICE's, maximum HP is a thing of the past... In terms of relative efficiency hard to beat the Sabre or the R2800 as the kings of the hill for production engines, they were both phenomenal achievements of mechanical engineering... so we agree... {chuckle} AJohnson, Canute, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted July 13, 2023 Share #142 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, realworkingsailor said: There was a little government assisted industrial espionage. It was agreed early on in the war period that patent enforcement was suspended for the duration and anyone showing a need for the technology would be handed it... It was part of the original Anglo-American mutual support pact in place before lend lease..... It's partly the reason why the cavity magnetron was shipped to America from England in 1940... The public story was that they didn't want to lose it to the Germans if they lost the battle of Britain, the real story was that current US radars although good, (best in the world) were not good enough... The magnetron was sent to MIT to integrate it into what we had already developed.... Technology transfer in wartime is an absolute... There were no commercial secrets allowed to be held during the war... realworkingsailor, Canute, Old Collingwood and 3 others 6 Quote Current Build: F-86F-30 Sabre by Egilman - Kinetic - 1/32nd scale In the Garage: East Bound & Down, Building a Smokey & the Bandit Kenworth Rig in 1/25th scale Completed: M8A1 HST 1930 Packard Boattail Speedster M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer F-4J Phantom II Bell H-13's P-51B/C Temporary Suspension: USS Gwin DD-433 F-104C Starfighter "Blue Jay Four" 1/32nd Scale Terminated Build: F-104C Starfighter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "Relish Today, Ketchup Tomorrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share #143 Posted July 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, Egilman said: so we agree... {chuckle} Yep! We just took slightly different roads to get there 😁 Andy Egilman, Jack12477, Canute and 2 others 5 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 14, 2023 Author Share #144 Posted July 14, 2023 Just for fun, here’s the sleeve valve timing gear train of a Bristol Hercules engine: It looks a little insane at first glance, but if you take your time and pick through the gears, it does begin to make sense. Andy Canute, mtaylor, Jack12477 and 3 others 5 1 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyShooter Posted July 14, 2023 Share #145 Posted July 14, 2023 My Great Uncle Harold flew with 404 in WW2. He was a Beaufighter pilot. mtaylor, Old Collingwood, Egilman and 3 others 6 Quote Brad/NavyShooter Pending Launch: RMS Titanic - 1/100 - 3D Print - Pond Float display Build Log: HMCS Bonaventure- 1/96 - A Fitting Out Completed Build: HMCS St Thomas - 1/48 - 3D printed Bens Worx Completed Build: 3D Printed Liberty Ship - 1/96 - RC A slightly grumpy, not quite retired ex-RCN Chief....hanging my hat (or helmet now...) in the Halifax NS area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realworkingsailor Posted July 14, 2023 Author Share #146 Posted July 14, 2023 8 hours ago, NavyShooter said: My Great Uncle Harold flew with 404 in WW2. He was a Beaufighter pilot. Nice! Do you know his plane(s) number/code? The 1/72 Airfix kit that I’m building comes with markings for 404 squadron. (EE-F). My build is on a bit of a summer stall at the moment, but I’ll pick things up when the weather starts to cool again. Andy Canute, Old Collingwood, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Quote Quando Omni Flunkus, Moritati Current Build: USF Confederacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyShooter Posted July 15, 2023 Share #147 Posted July 15, 2023 I never found out his plane's actual markings - I never saw his logbook before he passed. Alas. That said, I did send him a completed 1/48 Tamiya model of the Beaufighter while he was still with us. NS king derelict, Old Collingwood, Canute and 5 others 8 Quote Brad/NavyShooter Pending Launch: RMS Titanic - 1/100 - 3D Print - Pond Float display Build Log: HMCS Bonaventure- 1/96 - A Fitting Out Completed Build: HMCS St Thomas - 1/48 - 3D printed Bens Worx Completed Build: 3D Printed Liberty Ship - 1/96 - RC A slightly grumpy, not quite retired ex-RCN Chief....hanging my hat (or helmet now...) in the Halifax NS area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.