Forming a rabbet

[DaveBaxt]

What is the prefered way of doing this, Miniture chisel set------- ( Is there one small enough 1.5mm) I would need to buy one of these. Dremel.----- I have one at hand but would need to buy a plunge router for this which is quite cheap but unsure if it would be steady enough. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dremel-Attachment-Precision-Drilling-Trimming/dp/B0009EQ5QA/ref=asc_df_B0009EQ5QA/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309785472429&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1171505061803571346&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007202&hvtargid=pla-406644565655&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

I am the proud owner of a Proxxon bench saw and milling machine, Both could be used to form the straight edge  but not around the bow. I would lean more towards the Proxxon milling machine if I were to go down this route. . I could of course try and use a Dremel free hand without any guidance but think my hand is not too steady ( age related)

              Any other ideas out there would be appreciated. Best regards Dave

Edited March 1, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[wefalck]

If you don't have/want to show natural wood, you could also build up the keel/stems from several layers. The outer layer should be as thick as the rabbet would be deep and follow the outer rabbet line.

[Jaager]

I used the plunge router attachment for a Foredom flex shaft - upside down as a table with a fence - to be able to move the wood (keel) - the 22 degree cit was done using a twist drill bit as the cutter.

For a mass production operation - this would be cost effective - for 100's of keels.  For one off - not so much.

 

I suggest a good pattern on the keel, stem, and sternpost.  The use a very sharp small chisel to do the cut.  Strop often.   Magnification for old eyes.  A fixed piece of wood and a moving rotary tool is going to want to walk - different densities between spring and summer wood makes this more probable.  A fixed cutter and moving work is OK for a straight cut, but the stem is a curve and staying at a perfect tangent is difficult. 

A power tool can too easily stray.  The angle is fixed.

 

Doing it by hand is slower, but more forgiving.  Pieces of scrap can be shaped to match the angle of the frame at the rabbet - lots of them at the ends.   Practice - a lot, first.

 

 

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

A power tool can too easily stray.  The angle is fixed.

So true.   The angle of the tool is fixed, but the angle of the rabbet is dynamic.  The only place where it remains the same for more than one frame is in the dead flat.  The angle change at the bow is a lot, but at the stern it is even more so.  Chisels are my preferred method as my set from Mihail goes down to 0.5mm.

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

This sounds like it could be more difficult than first thought but still willing to give it a go. My first two bulids have been smaller models and I have not attempted a Rebbet but the ships were smaller and perhaps my thinking was ' they did not need them' Although I think I would prefer to use a machine if I am honest, however its probably about time I git myself a decent set of chisels so I will be looking for recomendations and hopefully I can get them here in the uk. So what kind of chisels do i need other than very small probably the thickness of the first planking 1.5mm ? Do I need a gouge or flat,curved or butt. As these are quite expensive, I want to make sure I get the correct ones.

       Once again I would like to thank you for your quick response and guidance. Best regards Dave

Edited March 1, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Gregory]

Dave ,  I actually used the Proxxon FET to form a rabbet on the MS 1:48 longboat, including the stem/bow.  I'll have to get  back to you later with some pics.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Gregory

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, SpyGlass said:

Just a route i have used, if its a kit use the sheet "sprue" as a guide.

 

Rabbet cut

The idea of using a guide sounds like a good one to me . What make of route are you using?

[DaveBaxt]

1 minute ago, Gregory said:

Dave ,  I actually used the Proxxon FET to form a rabbet on the MS 1:48 longboat, including the stem/bow.  I'll have to get  back to you later with some pics.

Sounds good. Look forward to your pics and any explanation would be appreciated. Best regards dave

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

So what kind of chisels do i need other than very small probably the thickness of the first planking 1.5mm ?

I lived with a few chisels up to about 1/4" for a long time, then after seeing a number of recommendations here at MSW, I bought a full set from Mihail in Russia.  They are absolutely gorgeous and will last many lifetimes.  The set includes 23 chisels and gouges in sizes from 0.5mm wide to 3.5mm wide.

 

I have not been in contact for a long time, but the email I have for him:     mihail.kirsanov@mail.ru  

See pic below.

Allan

Edited March 1, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

I lived with a few chisels up to about 1/4" for a long time, then after seeing a number of recommendations here at MSW, I bought a full set from Mihail in Russia.  They are absolutely gorgeous and will last many lifetimes.  The set includes 23 chisels and gouges in sizes from 0.5mm wide to 3.5mm wide.

 

I have not been in contact for along time, but the email I have for him:     mihail.kirsanov@mail.ru  

See pic below.

Allan

Wow! what a fantastic collection and probbably worth a small fortune. I will send the guy an email but probably beyond what I have in my wallet but interested all the same . I have just emailed Mihail and he would gladly make me a set but unfortunately the transfer of funds to /from Russia at present are not allowed .Thank you once again Allan.

[Gregory]

Dave , after looking at your build log I have to ask,   is the stem and keel part of the backbone?

If so, my method of using the FET for the rabbet in the stem area probably would not work after all.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Sorry to hear that Mihail is suffering from the sanctions imposed on Russia. At least it sounds like he's not drafted and freezing his butt off in a foxhole in Ukraine. It saddens me to see that sanctions designed to twist the arms of governments too often hurt the little people who have no say in what their governments do.

 

Micro-carving tools are easily made from tool steel or even broken drill bits. You won't need a lot of expensive tools. Just a propane torch, a hacksaw, and some small files and sandpaper. (If you have a woodturning lathe, you can get fancy with handles, but any old piece of dowel will work.) YouTube has many tutorial videos on making micro-chisels and carving tools. Search YouTube for "how to make micro-chisels" and you'll find lots of these. Below is one of the best.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[wefalck]

For flat chisels I would try to source some 2 mm square watchmaker's HSS gravers. They come in something like 8" length so that one can get three or four chisels out of them. HSS doesn't need hardening and tempering, just cautious grinding to shape.

At times when one could buy with a clean conscience from Chinese sources, 2/3/4 mm HSS blanks could also be sourced on ebay. Dito. round blanks for gouges.

[Jaager]

Flat engravers =  HSS gravers - come in a variety of widths.  They are a bit thicker than a chisel  but the cutting edge is what counts.

Jewelers supply - like Rio Grande or Otto Frei - not exactly an economy item - but probably long term quality.

The Sam Alfano tool handle with the bronze quick change holders are kind of neat.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Jaager

[DaveBaxt]

10 hours ago, Gregory said:

Dave , after looking at your build log I have to ask,   is the stem and keel part of the backbone?

If so, my method of using the FET for the rabbet in the stem area probably would not work after all.

 

Yes it is all one piece, however as many have done before ,I am considering replacing both the stem and stern section with boxwood. Some modellers have added material to the bottom of the straight section of the keel but as Alan has metioned whether or not this required.

[DaveBaxt]

8 hours ago, Jaager said:

Flat engravers =  HSS gravers - come in a variety of widths.  They are a bit thicker than a chisel  but the cutting edge is what counts.

Jewelers supply - like Rio Grande or Otto Frei - not exactly an economy item - but probably long term quality.

The Sam Alfano tool handle with the bronze quick change holders are kind of neat.

Thank you Jaager for your recommendations annd will take a look.

[DaveBaxt]

I would just like to thank all who have answered my call as I now have a better understanding of how rabbets are formed and what is required. Also thank you for the recomendations regarding equipment needed and how to make these as the jeweller type chisels gouges etc are probably out of my price bracket . Thank you also for any great links posted too, as they are a great source of reference. Again it amazes me how much help and patience is at hand on this forum and I am forever grateful. Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

9 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

I jusr used a dremel with a cutter bit - hand held so i could vary the angle of the cut

I think this would be the cheapest solution ( I already have a Dremmel)for me and definately worth consideration. Using the wooden ply sheet what the keel came attached to for a guide would be a great help too.  As this could be the only attempt at doing a rabbet and not sure I want invest too much in buying expensive tools is definately something I  would like to attempt on scrap wood to see what results I could produce. Thank you again for your help. Dave 

[Gregory]

7 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

Yes it is all one piece, however as many have done before ,I am considering replacing both the stem and stern section with boxwood. Some modellers have added material to the bottom of the straight section of the keel but as Alan has metioned whether or not this required.

If you go the route of replacing the stem and keel, my FET method will work. 

You  can see in my Resolution build where I replaced the stem and keel, but I didn't have the FET,   I used an added strip to form the rabbet 

 

[DaveBaxt]

15 hours ago, Gregory said:

If you go the route of replacing the stem and keel, my FET method will work. 

You  can see in my Resolution build where I replaced the stem and keel, but I didn't have the FET,   I used an added strip to form the rabbet 

 

Thank you once again Gregory for your help and patience. I have had a look at your Constitution and can see how you have added a strip to create a rabbet and  this another ecellent solution and I could go down this route if needed but would possibly need to remove some material from the false keel first. By the way tyour Constitution looks  a first class model and is a credit to you. Best regards dave

Edited March 3, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[No Idea]

Hi Dave - I cut all of the straight sections on my build using my mill. A “V” cutter did it for me with no problems at all. I didn’t use a vice I clamped the parts directly to the bed. The rabbet around the bow was cut by hand using a chisel. I use the small veritas chisels which are a great size for our hobby and I make them absolutely razor sharp to make the job easier. I could have easily used a 1/4 chisel though and achieved the same result - Mark 

[DaveBaxt]

3 hours ago, No Idea said:

Hi Dave - I cut all of the straight sections on my build using my mill. A “V” cutter did it for me with no problems at all. I didn’t use a vice I clamped the parts directly to the bed. The rabbet around the bow was cut by hand using a chisel. I use the small veritas chisels which are a great size for our hobby and I make them absolutely razor sharp to make the job easier. I could have easily used a 1/4 chisel though and achieved the same result - Mark 

Thank you once again Mark  and good to hear from you again. I have thought about using my milling machine for the straight bit of the rabbet . I have been trying to do source a set of chisels to do the job which is in my price bracket. I did come across a set of 3 Veritas chisels https://www.hobbies.co.uk/veritas-3-piece-miniature-chisel-set but are way too big. I will do a search and see if they do any more  as I do like there planes and sharpeners. I have sourced a couple from axminister which I was looking into and might try a couple of these.https://www.axminstertools.com/kirschen-micro-chisel-skew-chisel-no-2-1-5mm-600057

Best regards dave

 

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

Mark,

Look up Dockyard Model Company chisels.  They have or had excellent tools.  I have four of their sets and they are wonderful.   Last time I checked their products were available at a couple of places.

[Robere210]

Has anyone here ever used a Hammond Slider or Hammond Glider printer's saw?  They were made to cut lead type, but woodworkers are buying them and using them for making cuts in small pieces of wood.  You can clamp the small piece of wood into the slider mechanism and push it through the saw blade while your fingers and hands are well away from the spinning blade.

[wefalck]

Did you mean this one: https://mcguirepiano.com/blog/hammond-glider-trimosaw-model-g40b/ ?

 

Seems to be basically a (very) sturdy table-saw with a sliding table. Not sure how one would use it for rabbets ...