SS Blagoev ex-Songa 1921 by Valeriy V - scale 1:100 - Soviet Union

[Roger Pellett]

There are active discussions that pop up every so often on the forum about showing treenails on wooden planked hulls and nails on copper sheathing.  Proponents seem to treat this more as a way to exhibit detailed craftsmanship than accurately replicating true to scale appearance.  More politely, it’s a modeling convention.

 

Since there are far fewer of us modeling steel hulled vessels adding riveted detail gets less attention.  I personally choose not to do it for a number of reasons.  First, most steel hulled vessels are considerably larger than their commonly modeled wood sisters so are modeled at a smaller scale.  The common modeling scale for wood hulled vessels is 1:48.  My present project had a real life length of 240 ft.  At this scale the model would be 60” long; too long for in home display so I am modeling this at a scale of 1:96.  At this scale a 2” flattened rivet head is only about .02” in diameter; tiny.

 

Many modelers look to the rivet detail on HO scale model railroads for inspiration.  These domed head rivets are “Snap Head” rivets formed with a die.  They were used to join relatively thin plating together.  Heavy ship hull plating requiring high high structural strength and watertight construction was joined with “PanHead” rivets.  The heavy Pan Head was usually located on the inside and the rivet’s Point was driven from the outside.  The outboard end of a properly driven rivet was nearly flush, and almost invisible at any reasonable scale viewing distance.

 

Rivet patterns were determined by rules published by the various Classification Societies that graded vessels for insurance purposes.  They specified different patterns for various applications within the hull.  These were quite complex as they specified both the pattern and the number of rows of rivets.  Accurately modeling these therefore, requires a hull plating expansion drawing.  Just showing a single line of rivets in inaccurate and misleading.

 

Roger

[wmherbert]

I have thought the same.  I owned a 88ft  1920 riveted hull schooner. From 100 feet rivets were not visible but overlap places were. So on the paddle wheel tug (1:48) I'm building I laid strip of auto pinstriping along hull and then painted over to give the feel of the plates.

Bill

[wefalck]

Without wanting to further dilute Valery's building-log with side-discussions, one also needs to precise the period and the prototype. Different rivetting techniques were used at different times and in different places around the ships. For instance, early iron-ships had rather visible rivet-heads as one can see on surviving examples. As confidence and material assessment technologies evolved, rivets and their heads became smaller. When steel was introduced, half-countersunk heads became possible in even relatively thin plates due to the high tensile strength of the materials involved. On war-ships and other types of ships were appearance was considered important, rivets were generally countersunk above the waterline, so that these showed smooth hulls.

 

There is also the old scale discussion: can I leave off details that would not be visible at a 'normal' viewing distance? On the other hand, people may put their nose onto the model (or hopefully only on its glass-case) and then would see many more details. I think as long as they can be reproduced to scale, one could or should show details, such as rivetting, when appropriate for the prototype.

 

[Roger Pellett]

The (relatively) recent exploration of Titanic’s wreckage has focused attention on the riveting of her hull and riveting technology in general.  Even after steel became standard for construction, wrought iron rivets continued to be used with steel ones limited to high strength applications.  

 

Wrought iron rivets could be driven by hand while steel ones required mechanized equipment. Some British yards with centralized hydraulic plants preferred massive hydraulic riveters while others, especially US Great Lakes yards used compact pneumatic riveters.  This also influenced selection of rivet materials.

 

A (to me) subject much more complex than it often appears.

 

Roger

[IronShips]

 

Some more considerations on replicating rivets on a ship model hull:

I am currently working at a model of a iron brig built 1865. I have decided to try to build the hull of the model from steel (photo attached). Tests are positive and I hope I will be able to publish a build log here one day too. 🙂

The regular hull rivets* of the original brig were 3/4 inch in diameter (Source: Lloyd‘s Iron Ship Report). At the exterior of the hull, the heads of the regular shell rivets were sunk. Let‘s assume the sunk heads were somewhat larger in diameter than the rivets as such. At a scale of 1:48, the sunk heads would have been therefore of a diameter of approx. 0.45 to 0.5mm. (Sorry for switching to metric). 

Furthermore and although being called „sunk“, the rivets were normally (not always) slightly protruding from the surface of the shell plating for manufacturing reasons. Having been involved in the restoration of classic riveted vessels (at full scale) my „guesstimate“ is that these rivet heads have not been protruding more than 0.5cm (generous assumption).

As a result, we are talking about a detail of 0.5mm in diameter and 0.1mm high, prior to the application of any hull paint (min. two coats on the original ship).

I am open to suggestions, but I believe such detail would not be really visible on a model hull at a scale 1:48. At 1:96 or 1:100 even less. It might be worth, though, to execute some tests at 1:48 or larger scales.

I think we all came across some shipmodels with rather oversized rivets of far too large spacing and pitch. This might be appealing from a decorative point of view, but is in my opinion rather the contrary of a accurate scale reproduction.

Also, old worn out iron ships cannot serve as an example for the quality and appearance of the original riveting. To see how fine early riveted iron ships were built, one might visit the website of the State Library of South Australia and search for the bow view of ships such as the CITY OF LAHORE or the PARSEE. 

I find it astonishing that no rivet heads are visible on the photographs, altough the black and white pictures are crisp clear, sharp and rich in detail.

 

* Note: Rivets connecting the hull plates to the stem, keel, rudder stock were usually 1/3 larger in diameter than the regular hull plating rivets on such ships and also kept a bit more protruding. Furthermore, rivets installed on significantly larger vessels, often in way of sheerstrakes, frequently fitted in combination with double and tripple plating and riveted together with hydraulic means, are of different type and sizes and are a different subject.

Edited December 23, 2023 by IronShips
one number correction

[Dr PR]

Another bit about rivets as a reference to putting them on models.

 

On the Cleveland class cruisers of WWII that I am familiar with. Below the water line rivet heads were to be "as nearly flush as possible." The leading edges of hull plates of different thicknesses were chamfered by grinding to about 45 degrees. Backing plates were inside the hull plating. Quite a bit of effort was made to reduce drag.

 

Above the water line backing plates were outside the hull plating. Rivet heads were visible if you were standing close to them, but had very slight height above the plating and slightly conical. This was also true of the rivets on the turrets.

 

None of the riveting would be noticeable from more than a few yards/meters distant. There is no reason to put them on models.

 

I don't know how many decades this type of riveting goes back before the 1930s, but at some point builders began taking steps to reduce underwater drag.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Dr PR

[IronShips]

Dear Phil, this confirms others and my opinion, I guess. The look of the rivet heads in the exterior of the shell plating as you are describing was fairly standard and reflects very much the original appearance of riveted hulls dating even back to the mid of the 19th century. The exterior doublers above the waterline are typical for some warships of a certain period and can be easily reproduced in model scale, if wanted, but as you say, hands off of flush rivet heads.

I attach a close up photo (white) of the hull of the Danish yacht DANNEBROG, build in the 1930s and very nicely preserved to her original conditions. I don‘t believe such rivets would be visible in a scale of 1:48 or even smaller, but as mentioned before, very open to learn better.

(Note: As mentioned in my previous post, talking about standard exterior hull plating rivet heads only.)

[wmherbert]

Here's a 1914 hull. Tug is 100ft long so this looks to be from about 50 ft away

[Roger Pellett]

I know that this is picky but correct terminology can sometimes help to understand what one is looking at.

 

The photo in post #157 above does not show  “Rivet Heads.”  These are the “points” of the rivets (the end of the rivet without the head) that have been “closed” hammered while hot to fill the slightly tapered hole in the shell plating. The actual trapezoidal shaped rivet head is on the inside of the shell plating.

 

Roger

[Valeriy V]

This drawing illustrates Roger's story.   

[Dr PR]

I have a couple of books on ship building and they have drawings similar to what Valeriy posted. In particular, illustrations E and G show the difficulty in determining whether you are looking at "heads" or "points" in photos.

[IronShips]

17 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

I know that this is picky but correct terminology can sometimes help to understand what one is looking at.

 

The photo in post #157 above does not show  “Rivet Heads.”  These are the “points” of the rivets (the end of the rivet without the head) that have been “closed” hammered while hot to fill the slightly tapered hole in the shell plating. The actual trapezoidal shaped rivet head is on the inside of the shell plating.

 

Roger

 

@ Roger: 

According to my knowledge, on early ships the hot rivets were hammered from outside into the tappered rivet holes of the shell plating, countersunk rivet heads outside. 

Whilst still hot, the rivets were formed and finished off inside to form the mechanical lock.  The rivet heads (outside) have then been further flattend by hammering.

I believe the method you are describing came up with the invention of the air hammers. And you are correct, the picture I posted fits rather in this period.

 

Either way a reason not to show hull plating rivet heads outside a shipmodel. 😌

 

Always happy to learn more!

 

@ Valeriy: 

Thearle is indeed a fantastic reference. All his books! The book you are showing and the plates (harder to get) illustrate very well the different types of rivets used in different areas in ship construction in the past.

 

Merry Christmas to all!

Daniel

[Valeriy V]

I greet everyone and congratulate you on the New Year and Christmas holidays!

  In the meantime, until the New Year comes, you can make a few details for the model.  

[Mirabell61]

very nice soldering work Valeriy,

 

Nils

[Rick310]

Beautiful!

Rick

[druxey]

Lovely precision soldering. The offset rudderhead seems rather strange, though.

[Keith Black]

4 minutes ago, druxey said:

The offset rudderhead seems rather strange, though.

Possible reason, less turbulence?

 

Beautiful work as always, Valeriy.  

[Valeriy V]

2 hours ago, druxey said:

Lovely precision soldering. The offset rudderhead seems rather strange, though.

Now everything is in its place.  

[druxey]

Ah! I see how it aligns now. Thank you, Valeriy.

[Valeriy V]

14 hours ago, druxey said:

Ah! I see how it aligns now. Thank you, Valeriy.

I will install the bolts and nuts in the steering wheel hinges later.   

[Valeriy V]

Anchor fairlead.

[Mirabell61]

What a nice "face" looking at us !

Very good work Valeriy

 

Nils

[Valeriy V]

Engineroom casing.

[amateur]

I could look at your work for day’s. It’s art.

Stay safe

 

Jan

[KeithAug]

Valeriy, you seem to have a never ending supply of brass. In the UK there are only a few specialist suppliers of thin sheet brass and they are rather expensive. Is the supply situation in Ukraine much better?

[Valeriy V]

2 hours ago, KeithAug said:

Valeriy, you seem to have a never ending supply of brass. In the UK there are only a few specialist suppliers of thin sheet brass and they are rather expensive. Is the supply situation in Ukraine much better?

I'm having a hard time answering your question, Keith. My brass stash was collected 10-15 years ago.  

When they run out, I'll probably stop building models because I can't work with plastic.  

[shipman]

Please pander to my curiosity, Valeiry, what are your methods for cutting brass, especially  the thinner plate, avoiding warp or curling?

 

Wishing you and yours a happy and peaceful New Year.

[Valeriy V]

42 minutes ago, shipman said:

Please pander to my curiosity, Valeiry, what are your methods for cutting brass, especially  the thinner plate, avoiding warp or curling?

 

Wishing you and yours a happy and peaceful New Year.

Thank you, Shipman! And you could just see my method of cutting brass in the previous photo.  

[Keith Black]

 Late to the party regarding the visibility of rivet heads. I finally located a photo of the Maine I knew I had somewhere on the day of her christening. The hull is new and and the sunlight is at an angle.  Those rivets on a model at scale would not be visible, IMHO. 

 

Impeccable work, Valeriy. I look forward to each new post. 

[Roger Pellett]

Valeriy,

 

By the time that you use up your brass stash, hopefully Ukraine will again be peaceful and one of us can visit you with a “heavy suitcase.”😀😀

Roger