Table-top drill press recommendations (Proxxon, Micro-Mark, others) or milling machine

[Gregory]

2 hours ago, palmerit said:

So maybe a mill is more useful (for the rare drilling, even if less efficient, but also for its milling capabilities)?

When all is said and done,  I would agree that this is the way to go.

 

[wefalck]

Can't comment on the current quality of the PROXXON drill-press, but had the previous model since the early 1980s and it is still going strong, though it has seen considerable abuse by working too hard.

 

In any case, I would recommend to go for collets, rather than using the Jacobs-chuck - less bulky and more precise. I think, PROXXON includes them into the standard kit.

 

At the time I also bought the long column, which came handy for non-modelling projects (hence the abuse), and the kit convert it into a simple wood-lathe (I don't think they offer this anymore since they had the small wood-lathe).

[mtaylor]

I had one of the older and now discontinued Model Expo mills.  Worked mostly fine but did have some limitations as I recall.   It finally died and I got a new one  from Little Machine Shop.  Wasn't all that cheap (cost wise) but I believe you get what you pay for.  The LMS mill is a joy to use as both a mill and drill press.  It's larger than the ME mill and has a more powerful motor.  It's heavier and there's no wobble anywhere.  If I set a depth... it stays set until I change unlike some mills I've seen.   No complaints here about it.  I've had probably 7 or 8 years now and quite frankly, it's been worth every penny.

[palmerit]

38 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

It finally died and I got a new one  from Little Machine Shop

Like one of these?

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3990&category=2122081981

 

Anyone know how these compare to the Sherline I see recommended a lot?

 

Seems like these are pretty heavy. The specs say 124 lbs. Is that right.

 

Sherline is around 50lbs. Proxxon only 15lbs. (I know these aren't comparable.)

Edited yesterday at 03:27 AM by palmerit

[vossiewulf]

31 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

I had one of the older and now discontinued Model Expo mills.  Worked mostly fine but did have some limitations as I recall.   It finally died and I got a new one  from Little Machine Shop.  Wasn't all that cheap (cost wise) but I believe you get what you pay for.  The LMS mill is a joy to use as both a mill and drill press.  It's larger than the ME mill and has a more powerful motor.  It's heavier and there's no wobble anywhere.  If I set a depth... it stays set until I change unlike some mills I've seen.   No complaints here about it.  I've had probably 7 or 8 years now and quite frankly, it's been worth every penny.

Yes, that is the Little Machine Shop exclusive HiTorque version of the original Sieg mini-mill. Compared to the Sieg, the HiTorque has a 500 watt motor vs the 350 of the Sieg, and has belt drive vs. gears, which is much quieter. My MicroLux version of the Sieg just died recently after about 15 years and I'm replacing it with the model 3990 HiTorque milling machine.

 

Another advantage of going this direction is that these mills have standard tapers on the spindle and standard T-slots and the like so you can buy tooling anywhere. If you're starting from scratch and I think OP is, assume another $300-$500 of stuff you need along with the mill to be fully operational.

 

And of course my previous caveat of this only makes sense if you intend to do scratchbuilding/kitbashing still holds. 

[vossiewulf]

13 minutes ago, palmerit said:

Like one of these?

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3990&category=2122081981

 

Anyone know how these compare to the Sherline I see recommended a lot?

 

Seems like these are pretty heavy. The specs say 124 lbs. Is that right.

 

Sherline is around 50lbs. Proxxon only 15lbs. (I know these aren't comparable.)

The weight of the machines pretty much tells the tale, the Little Machine Shop 3990 is a serious machine that can do serious machining with sub-.001" accuracy and is power-feed and DRO ready.

 

Yes 124lbs, 177 ship weight. It's a two man job to move it in its crate and it will come covered in oil that needs to be first stripped.

[palmerit]

I guess the "Little" in "Little Machine" refers to the size of the shop not the size of the machines it sells.

[Dr PR]

A drill press (and milling machine) will drill holes perpendicular to a piece. Because the drilling motion is straight along the vertical axis only you can use extremely sharp and tough, but fragile, carbide drill bits and other very tiny bits that would break if you tried to drill by hand.

 

You can use "V" blocks to hold circular parts in an exact and repeatable position to drill perpendicular through them with precision. If you have a tilting table or vise you can drill at precise angles. Circular tables allow drilling holes in circles, precisely spaced by distance or angle. You can't get this precision and repeatability when drilling by hand.

 

If you have an X/Y table below the drill/mill you can drill a series of holes in precise positions by moving the table the desired amount. This is especially good for drilling a series of holes evenly spaced in a straight line, or lines of parallel holes. Here is a post using a very poor example of a drill press to get a neat series of holes in a pin rail:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=988816

 

Here is an example of a simple use for a "milling machine." But in this case I used a drill press:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=904616

 

The number of additional tools for milling machines is almost endless, each allowing some precision drilling or milling work.

[Dr PR]

Here is a suggestion for those having "mini" drill presses that have very little vertical clearance.

 

If you have separate drill presses and X/Y tables, first mount the X/Y table on a sturdy base. Then mount your vise on the table.

 

Next mount a spacer block behind the table to raise the drill press high enough so you have adequate clearance above the vise.

 

Mount the drill press to the spacer block.

 

NOPTE: All of this MUST be very rigid. When you lower the drill press to drill the vertical support shaft WILL bend. Period. This will cause some misalignment of the drilled hole. Some of the "mini" drill presses have very flimsy vertical supports. There is a reason industrial mills have huge cast iron vertical supports!

 

The sturdier the vertical support the less flexing will occur. If the drill press is mounted as I suggest above, the amount of bending of the entire assembly depends upon how solid the press is mounted to the spacer block and how solid the block is mounted to the base. But the higher you raise the drill press the greater the amount of flexing you will have.

[thibaultron]

Here is a link to the Grizzly Tools version of the Little Machine Shop mill, and about $200 cheaper. One thing to note about both these mills and the ubiquitous 7X? mini lathes, is that the feed screws are actually mm not inch type threads. Thus instead of .100" per revolution, they are .1625" per rev, making it more difficult to mill in inches. They are also rated at 1.59mm per revolution, so go figure, it makes it difficult in metric too.

 

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-18-3-4-hp-mill-drill/g0781

 

[palmerit]

Those both (Grizzle and Little) look like impressive machines. I want to work in my house, not in my cellar (it has only 6ft clearance and is 80% dirt floor, which is pretty common for old houses in the US South) - maybe some day I'll build a he-shack in our back yard (my wife has wanted one for her quilting hobby).

 

I want something I can set on the floor under my work table that I can lift up when I need to use it. The Proxxon is a mini mill and fairly light. I need to look at the (far more expensive) Sherline to check its weight, but it seems a lot heavier (maybe not something that can be easily lifted up and down - and since I work on just a (fairly sturdy) folding table, it might be too heavy for that.

[wefalck]

As has been noted in other threads here, it helps to draw up a list of things you really want/need to do with the machine and a list of things of which it would be nice, if it could do this as well. The next step is to think about the enveloppe of the parts you expect to work on, i.e. max length, max width/length or diameter. One also needs to think about the materials you expect to work on.

 

Finally, what is the smallest and biggest hole you expect to drill. This determines the chuck or collet capacity and the precision and sensitivity required. Most hobby machines are ok down to 0.5 mm or even 0.3, but below that concentricity and sensitivity of movement may not be good enough, resulting in drill breakage.

 

Milling machines in general are meant to mill, not to drill. Hence, many do not have quill, but you need to lower/lift the head with a handwheel that works on a leadscrew. That is a very precise and safe way for drilling holes, but also very tedious, when you want to drill many holes of medium precision. For some mills drilling quills are available as extras or so-called sensitive drilling-attachments, which is essentially a sleeve fitting into the main chuck/collet with which a light drill-chuck can be moved up an down.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, I would look into using collets for model work, rather than a drill-chuck. Many drill-presses, however, do not allow to replace the chucks with collets. In some cases, aftermarket ER collet-chucks may be available.

 

I am not terribly familiar with the current market for drill-presses or milling machines, as I am fully kitted out, so the above comments are meant to provide you with indications for what to look for in the machines.

 

Edited yesterday at 07:02 PM by wefalck

[palmerit]

13 minutes ago, wefalck said:

I am not terribly familiar with the current market for drill-presses or milling machines, as I am fully kitted out, so the above comments are meant to provide you with indications for what to look for in the machines.

Thanks. I'm in no rush for this purchase. It was prompted by being unhappy when trying to carefully drill by hand. Now I'm seeing what others are able to do with a mill, such as creating squared off or hexagonal sections of masts, as well as shaping parts. I know all of that could be done by hand, but playing with a new tool is part of the fun too. I need to better educate myself of what a mill can do (and cannot do) and what accessories can do. I'm not at the stage of skill for serious kit bashing. But I like playing with new toys.

[wefalck]

Feel free to ask questions. There are members here with 30+ years of experience in machining ...

 

It is also good to keep in mind, that lathes and mills are 'self-replicating' machines in the sense, that you can make parts on them that improve their performane or widen the spectrum of applications by making attachments.

 

In this sense it is also useful to look at old-time (pre-WWI) machinists handbooks from a time when machine-tools were less sophisticated and one had to make a lot of parts/attachments oneself.

 

[mtaylor]

23 hours ago, palmerit said:

Like one of these?

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3990&category=2122081981

 

 

 

Yes. I don't see the model I have listed as it's obviously been superceded.

[mtaylor]

If I had known you needed something small and light to move the machine to the bench, I would not have recommended the LMS mill.   They are heavy machines.  When I moved into my apartment, they used a dolly with tracks that could go up stairs.   It still took two of them to get up there.

 

I still love my mill as it's very precise and very quiet.

 

 

[Landlubber Mike]

I’d throw another option out there.  If you’re going to spend that kind of money to drill holes, maybe consider getting a micromotor if you don’t already have one — essentially a high-end Dremel-type tool.  I used mine for drilling, sanding, cutting, etc.  The one I have - recommended by @vossiewulf  - is a Nakanishi Evolution.  It’s got a very light stylus so you can work with it for considerable periods.  You’ll find a ton more versatility from a tool like that than a drill press or even a mill.

[palmerit]

58 minutes ago, Landlubber Mike said:

The one I have - recommended by @vossiewulf  - is a Nakanishi Evolution.

That does look like a cool tool. It seems to be about the same price as a Sherline.

[palmerit]

I might want to educate myself on what a mill can actually do (and not do). Someone recommended the Home Machinists Handbook (which I think is based on using Sherline). If anyone has other recommendations on books, web sites, YouTube videos, please let me know. This is probably something I'm going to stew on for many months.

[vossiewulf]

A micromotor is a very good tool to have and the Nakanishi is excellent. It's so quiet that it can be running at 10k rpm and you can't hear it at all, and it has plenty of torque. Basically brushless micromotors are highly improved Dremels, smaller, lighter, higher rpm, torquier, just better all around. Only problem is they're pretty expensive but if you get one, I promise you won't regret it. 

[Landlubber Mike]

43 minutes ago, palmerit said:

I might want to educate myself on what a mill can actually do (and not do). Someone recommended the Home Machinists Handbook (which I think is based on using Sherline). If anyone has other recommendations on books, web sites, YouTube videos, please let me know. This is probably something I'm going to stew on for many months.

I have a Sherline mill and lathe.  I haven't done wood ship modeling in a while, but even when I was, I mostly used the Sherline tools for wood turning projects (pens, etc.).  Certainly if you're going to be scratch building wooden ship models, a mill and lathe would get a decent amount of use.  That being said, those tools are down the list on power tools most used in the hobby - probably my most used is a disc sander, followed by my table saw and scroll saw (I also have a band saw but haven't used it as much for wooden ship models).

 

In terms of versatility, my micromotor is my most used power tool.  Honestly, it's been a real game changer for me.  I've used the gamut of accessories for it - drill bits, sanding wheels, milling bits, cut-off wheels, etc.  I tend to scratch build and use aftermarket detail sets for my plastic models.  I drill small holes all the time - here I drilled 0.30mm and 0.50mm holes to add the push rods in a couple of engines on my current Hs 129 builds.  It would have taken my hours to drill out all the holes by hand, not to mention, I probably would have broken a dozen bits.  With the micromotor, drilling the holes probably took 15-20 minutes and I didn't break a single bit: 

I mentioned this before, but the size, weight, and torque are what make the micromotor so much better than a Dremel.  They are the kind of machines dentists use all day for delicate detail work.  The stylus I use is maybe cigar-sized and ultra light weight, so I can do hours of work with it without fatigue.  Not only does the size and weight help with control, but it's easy to adjust the speed on the machine and have added control using a foot pedal.  

 

Given the fairly limited amount of holes that you may need to drill building a model ship, is it worth spending over $1k on a drill press/milling machine that will see little work?  If you need to drill holes in a row, you could always do them with a micromotor by putting the piece in a vise, marking the holes with an awl, drilling a pilot hole, etc.  If I had to do it over again, I would have first invested in the micromotor, then add the more specialized machines like a lathe and mill later.