HMS Victory by dafi - Heller - PLASTIC - To Victory and beyond ...

[amateur]

actually, everything we take for granted now is post 1900....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/historicdockyard/6149161183/

 

Jan

[Beef Wellington]

The question is: would Nelson recognise this entry-port....

 

There is a nice model in NMM showing Victory as she was supposed to be n 1803 without the entry-ports.http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66474.html

There is alos a model that shows victory as she was supposed to be in 1805 sith entryports and even a platform outside the hull....

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66475.html

 

The one without is assumed to be the contemporary model

 

 

Jan

 

 

Note the important wording in the description on the 1803 model - "Model also shows further modifications which were proposed after Trafalgar which were not carried out".  Even contemporary models represent many different things, probably in a world before CAD design it was the most effective way to convey ideas for real world discussion rather than attempting to be a definitive reference manual for how the ships looked at a particular time.  All this is speculation without definitive proof...which is why its so fun because no-one is wrong :-)

Edited October 8, 2013 by Beef Wellington

[dafi]

Please also see http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/333-side-entry-ports-on-british-first-and-second-rates/#entry109230

 

There is a copy, for the content of this discussion not to be lost in my thread only. 

 

:-)

 

XXXDAn

[dafi]

And I still do not give up the dream, that one day my lower gundeck will be finished, I managed to prepare some ...

 

 

... and to do some more ...

 

 

... to come closer to this dream of mine.

 

XXXDAn

 

Edited October 8, 2013 by dafi

[amateur]

You won't be finished by then

 

Jan

[dafi]

The lower gundeck ...

 

.. perhaps ...

 

;-)

 

XXXDAn

[Kevin]

i love the stern decoration in this photo 

 

i will remove this post - if your unhappy with me posting it

Edited October 9, 2013 by Kevin

[dafi]

No, leave it, it is a great picture!

 

XXXDAn

[Kevin]

would that be the design after they closed the stern in and then before the big repair

[dafi]

Note the important wording in the description on the 1803 model - "Model also shows further modifications which were proposed after Trafalgar which were not carried out".  

As Wellington mentioned above - this line submits the model to suggestions of your wildest dreams ;-)

 

XXXDAn

[mtaylor]

A few thoughts, if I may.   The photos reference by Jan have interest in that the model with the entry port doesn't have the boarding ladder going above the entry port.  As I recall, entry ports were for the exclusive use of the brass.  Everyone else had to go up and over the top.  Is this a faulty assumption?  The model says "yes, everyone boarded the ship via the entry port".  

 

The other two pic show "without entry ports".... if they weren't there, and there's only 28 guns, which ports would have been empty?  Unless the very formost were used as a bridle port.  Curiously, many of the contemporary models and paintings show the ports, yet the photo from 1909 doesn't.

 

A pity we don't have a time machine....

[dafi]

So the pot is empty ...

 

 

... time to do something more important and worthy ...

 

 

... as both scuttles for the vent trunks were mere black holes. So they got their wooden cases and look much more in tune now  :-)

 

 

And here some fresh impressions from the shipyard.

 

 

 

 

 

Good night, Daniel

[mtaylor]

Fantastic, Daniel.  

[popeye the sailor]

splendid work Daniel.......the rigging looks great!    so life-like 

[amateur]

I have a question, not on your fantastic technique, but on the reality of gun-handling....

 

Quite often, you see ringbolts placed in the deck, and a tackle rigged (sometimes even two) to haul back the gun in order to sponge out and load.

Seeing how far the gun has to be run backwards to get the sponge in the barrel, I was wondering: were should the ringbolts be placed to get the system working?

 

Jan

[dafi]

Thank you Sirs :-)

 

Jan, the tackle in the back usually is a single one (only the French had a double tackle for 36 or 46 ponders). It was hooked into the ring that was as much at the center line as possible. At the Vic, the plans show the rings more or less at the line that coaming/gratings give.

At the last picture with the reloading of the gun, the rings are situated just beside the anchor cable, which is just enough for the tackle to work.

 

Here two more of the rings to be seen.

 

 

XXXDAn

Edited October 14, 2013 by dafi

[Stockholm tar]

Jan,

 

Dafi is correct. The ringbolts were normally positioned as near to the centreline, behind each gun, as was possible. This would give the tackle the maximum amount of room to operate and be effective. However, depending on the gun's position, I am not sure that the guns always entirely cleared their ports, and there are instances of the rammer and sponger having to operate with their implements out of the port. Incidentally, the gun's own recoil would normally return it to the loading position.

 

Regarding the entry ports, Goodwin in his 'Construction and Fitting of the Sailing Man of War', says that they were fitted between 1660 and 1810, although some ships continued their use after that date. That is presumably why early 20th cent. photos of the Victory show her without an entry port. He also states that the first use of entry ports, port and starboard, was from 1671.

 

As to their use, I think Mark is right, and that they were for the use of senior officers only. I may be wrong here, but I'm not sure lowly mids and lieutenants would have been allowed to use it, unless they had special dispensation.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Stockholm tar

[amateur]

Thanks!

I'm more used to models that place themlike Jotika suggests...

Jan

Edited October 14, 2013 by amateur

[ianmajor]

Gosh Daniel,

 

Those photos really illustrate your excellent work well.

[dafi]

Thanks!

I'm more used to models that place themlike Jotika suggests...

Jan

THAT is far too near, as the gun would run over. It should be just where the opening starts.

 

Also the breeching line is far too short :-)

 

Gruß, Daniel

Edited October 14, 2013 by dafi

[dafi]

Thank you Maurice :-)

 

And what does one do if one is bored? One starts pimping around ...

 

... with the gunport lids I alreadyshowed, that it is possible, to attach the needed ring onto the eyebolts, so why not doing this on a larger scale, say perhaps the breeching ropes?!?

 

So ripped the single guidance ring for the breeching rope out of the carriage, build in the new double one and already prepared the rest. So it looks like there still was place for improvment in the old carriage ;-)

 

 

And of course attached the breeching ropes - again showing the infamous goodwin´s preventer breeching rope - and here we are, gun 2.0, aka Dr. Tentacle :-)

 

 

And here he comes, Dr. Tentacle´s arch enemy, the incredible Dr. dafi ® - terror of all multi-armed creatures, in his insatiable wish to bind Dr. Tentacle and confine him down onto a secure place!

 

Cleverly Dr. dafi ® puts up a trap:

 

 

 

... a needle on a shish kebab skewer ...

 

 

... makes the aiming markings on the inner hull :-)

 

Afterwards - no not the same picture again ...

 

 

... no this time ...

 

 

... there is a fine drill attached :-)

 

Then Dr. Tentacle was lured into the trap ...

 

 

... and detained :-)

 

 

...hihihihihihihihi...

 

... see him fidgeting around in despair but no more escape will be his :-)

 

 

Once again Dr. dafi ® wins and shows the limits to one more abominable creature of maritime navyisms!

And please tune in again next week, when we will show: Who the hell is Captain Hook?!?

 

Greetings from the tentacle-tamer, Dr. dafi ®

[Kevin]

is he still there?

[popeye the sailor]

ohhhhhhhh.....my head.......it's......vibrating!  the pressure.........it's starting to build!   too much..........I've got....information overload!  arggggggggg!

 

would this be the norm for larger bore cannons?   I can imagine the recoil in touching one of these bad boys off.  you make thing so interesting..........and looks good in the process         I really enjoy what you do,   good Dr. 

[amateur]

But... where are the tackles in the last pic?

He's not fished yet....

 

Seriously: are you going to redo all the previous installed guns, or is it just illustration of growing knowledge, so that each next batch of gun is better than the previous one?

 

Jan

[dafi]

Thank you Sirs :-)

 

Kevin who?

- Dr dafi® still around, alive and kicking !!!

- Dr. Tentacle is still there to all eternity - he can´t move any more ...

- Captain Hook? Who the hell is Captain Hook?

 

Popeye: As mentioned earlier, the only source I find so far for the preventer breeching is Goodwin. But as in the rigging all important systems are with a redundancy system to get fail safe, I see it quite logical to have one on the breeching ropes too in case of breaking while firing the gun or due to battle damage. Showing it in the build is of course some kind of risky, but  I would like to put this feature up to discussion by doing so. Perhaps this helps to enlighten the affair. Does anybody has any clue or where Goodwin has his sources from?

 

Jan: The special treatment just will be just for those 6 guns that will be run out, as they still will be in the photographic focus for some future documentation. The installed lashed up ones will stay the way they are :-)

But as there is always a growth in ability and know-how, there will be always new solutions and perhaps I will still find out new tricks for the guns on display on the upper deck - who knows, I am already beyond everything that I ever imagined in my wildest dreams when I started this build :-)

 

 

Cheers, Daniel

Edited October 16, 2013 by dafi

[ianmajor]

Daniel,

 

I like the kebab stick idea for reaching right through the ship to mark and drill. I am about to do some retro fitting around my cannon so I now know how to do the drilling required!

[Kevin]

- Dr. Tentacle is still there to all eternity - he can´t move any more 

 

Are you sure - a week is a long time,

[Kevin]

Once again Dr. dafi ® wins and shows the limits to one more abominable creature of maritime navyisms!

And please tune in again next week, when we will show: Who the hell is Captain Hook?!?

 

 

 

[channell]

I never get tired of seeing your Victory grow, Daniel.

[dafi]

- Dr. Tentacle is still there to all eternity - he can´t move any more 

 

Are you sure - a week is a long time,

 

Do not worry, I will have a close eye on him :-)

 

Thanks Kevin, Ian and Channell

Edited October 16, 2013 by dafi