HMS Victory by dafi - Heller - PLASTIC - To Victory and beyond ...

[Old Collingwood]

A master of the smaller scales - reinventing what is possible,   is what you are doing.

 

OC.

[mtaylor]

Good answer, OC.   I'll offer "majick".... in the sense of beyond normal.

[dafi]

And a bit of fresh permanent make-up 🙂

 

 

Plenty of white, ochre and some red. Was tricky to mix but now it is "Hello Kitty!"

 

 

XXXDAn

 

[amateur]

I thought there was slightly moreyellow ochre in her new colour, but this isreally'hello kitty' rosa

 

jan

[Old Collingwood]

That looks about Perfecto.

 

OC.

[kirill4]

Why pink? 🤤

new color? .... why new color?😭

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by kirill4

[Old Collingwood]

14 minutes ago, kirill4 said:

Why pink? 🤤

new color? .... why new color?😭

 

 

Its the fresh color that the actual ship has been re painted from historic paint tests.

 

OC.

[Morgan]

Hi Dafi,

 

Good colour match, if you want to go all the way you can have the colours mixed, in the thread ‘HMS Victory 2017 refit new-colours’ on this forum ‘michaelpsutton2’ quoted the Pantone colour references. I ordered the new black/grey and ochre for a test and the colour swatches are below. These are in an enamel low gloss.

 

What you find is that the ochre is very susceptible to light and shading conditions, going from the dark ochre/buff to the pink. The third picture has a coat of satin gloss.

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Collingwood]

Reminds me almost like the color applied to British Fources vehicles during the Gulf War - it was then called desert pink.

 

OC.

[kirill4]

4 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

Its the fresh color that the actual ship has been re painted from historic paint tests.

 

OC.

Thanks, I see...

old color I like ...but this...almost pink. :)))...no :)))

but understood, it's historic accurate! 

[dafi]

We did not say that it is historically correct. It is just the way she is presented today 😇😇😇

Edited December 24, 2018 by dafi

[Old Collingwood]

14 minutes ago, dafi said:

We did not say that it is historically correct. It is just the way she is presented today 😇😇😇

I read that they have stripped back some of the paintwork and found traces of the different color - hence why they have re painted her in that color.

 

OC.

[dafi]

Still looking for the full blown report to how they came to this interpretation. I do actually say that this it is not impossible, but most other historical evidence point another - the old - direction. If anybody has a link to these studies - and I mean the real and full report and not the newspaper clips - I will be pleased to be convinced if I can follow the chain of proofs 🙂

 

XXXDAn

[Old Collingwood]

24 minutes ago, dafi said:

Still looking for the full blown report to how they came to this interpretation. I do actually say that this it is not impossible, but most other historical evidence point another - the old - direction. If anybody has a link to these studies - and I mean the real and full report and not the newspaper clips - I will be pleased to be convinced if I can follow the chain of proofs 🙂

 

XXXDAn

I have found this  - it might help?  -   https://www.hms-victory.com/restoration-log/hms-victory-repainted-battle-trafalgar-colours

 

OC.

[paulsutcliffe]

They stripped back all of the paint and took samples from Trafalgar era, tested under microscope etc and came up with the new colour as being accurate for the period according to a programme on the BBC some time ago

Regards

Paul

[mtaylor]

So they assume the pigments didn't change over time or pick up some color from next layer of paint?  Interesting.  

[dafi]

Okokok, I stirred the wasp's nest. Funny how much emotion color evokes 🙂

 

So the 1765 version is half way ready already and the connoisseur recognizes the 2018 version on the "Hello Kitty" teint. Some versions in between are still missing.

One more cast was still left, so one more to be done.

So we have a funny little in-beween-meal, hope it suits your taste.

There we go 🙂

XXXDAn

[kirill4]

Good day,Daniel,

looks nice, sharp-accurate!

what subst. do you use for making such nice casting- reproduction?

sorry if You already told abt this early... 

All the Best!

Kirill

.

Edited December 26, 2018 by kirill4

[dafi]

@Kirill: Pricosil grün for the form and Biresin G26 for the cast.

 

Greatest gift of dafi? Knowing how to make chips 🙂

 

The characteristic of the 1920 version is the flat outer surface, so got the chisel out ...

 

 

... dug holes ...

 

 

... and flatened all. 

 

 

See the "Broad Arrows" indicating it kings property 😉

 

XXXDAn

 

 

[kirill4]

Oh , I see ...Thank you Daniel.

[amateur]

How many will there be in this display?

I think the Maya die Biene version should be included....;)

 

Jan

 

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by amateur

[jeff watts]

On 12/24/2018 at 10:20 PM, paulsutcliffe said:

They stripped back all of the paint and took samples from Trafalgar era, tested under microscope etc and came up with the new colour as being accurate for the period according to a programme on the BBC some time ago

Regards

Paul

im a bit late to the party , but would like to add my twopennys worth on the subject of the colour , i also saw the documentary in which the scientists  used a spectrometer to identify the colour at the time of trafalgar , what they didnt do was to make any allowance for  any fading of that paint, which  after 250 years would have been significant ,  new synthetic pigments and resins have a lot better resistance to uv rays and salt damage , but they still fade ,so in my opinion the original yellow ochre would be my choice  and the new salmon pink is what you get after 250 years of fading  ,, just my opinion mind 

[druxey]

Nice theory, Jeff. However, earth colors like ochre are UV stable. (In paint technological terms, 'non-fugitive'.) Also, each layer of paint would be protected from UV light and atmosphere by subsequent coats of paint, so are preserved. I doubt if the conservators of the ship are in error. We just have to get used to the fact that the ship no longer fits our perception of her.

[paulsutcliffe]

Druxey took the words out of my mouth, I was just about to say I doubt there was much fading under all those costs of paint.

[dafi]

Chemical interaction with the vehicle or other paints? It is more than 200years now. 

 

But the most important question to me still is where is the provenance of the sample(s). And how this small sample gave reason to be applied to the whole outside of the ship?

 

Always open for new finings and input, as long as they are explained properly and seem logical to me. Good research is one thing, judging the results the other.

 

XXXDan

[mtaylor]

1 hour ago, dafi said:

Chemical interaction with the vehicle or other paints? It is more than 200years now. 

 

But the most important question to me still is where is the provenance of the sample(s). And how this small sample gave reason to be applied to the whole outside of the ship?

 

Always open for new finings and input, as long as they are explained properly and seem logical to me. Good research is one thing, judging the results the other.

 

XXXDan

 

Excellent point's Daniel.   If we look at the work on Vasa, they did small samples early on from here and there about the ship and determined she was basically blue at the bulwarks and the sculptures were gold.  Further research in detail showed that the bulwarks (external) were red and figures were multicolored and rather colorful.   I suspect this is still too early to say yes or no the Vic's colors.

[Morgan]

Some background.  The following is an article from the Guardian 17 March 2014 – Paint detectives uncover true colours of Nelson’s victorious flagshipby Maev Kennedy

 

“Conservationists say state of Victory is a 20th century version of what an 18th century warship looked like

 

The bumble-bee stripes of orangey brown and black of one of the most famous ships in the world, Horatio Nelson's HMS Victory on which he fought and died at the battle of Trafalgar in 1805, may have to be repainted after a team of historic paint detectives recovered hundreds of fragments of the original paint surfaces.

 

"What you see today is largely an early 20th century invention of what an 18th century warship looked like," said Michael Crick-Smith, a founder with his partner Ian Crick-Smith of the conservation institute at Lincoln University specialising in historic decorative finishes.

 

The pair claim that the colour they describe as "that hideous orange" is part of much later attempts to restore the ship when it had become a symbol of British naval power. The cherished legend is that it was repainted in his favourite colours at Nelson's orders, when the already elderly ship, launched in the 1760s when he was just a school boy, was refitted as his flagship.

 

But the Crick-Smiths' analysis – which in some places involved disentangling 72 layers of paint – suggests the hull was originally mostly black, with a lot of varnished timber above the water line. It was later partly repainted in an ochre shade, probably before Nelson took it over, but a much paler colour than the present vivid shade.

 

The orlop deck, where desperate attempts were made to save Nelson's life after a French sniper's bullet went through his shoulder and lungs and lodged in his spine, leaving him drowning in his own blood, was a pale creamy stone colour. The surgeon's cabin and the other small cabins on that deck were a surprisingly grand two shades of blue – good quality paint, compared to the cheap limewash and poor quality oil paint used in much of the ship.

 

The spaces now shown as Nelson's admiral's cabin, and the captain's cabin of Thomas Hardy (the "kiss me, Hardy" in whose arms Nelson died) are entirely comparatively modern reconstructions, but the Crick-Smiths are convinced from contemporary sources that they would have been much plainer, and probably painted a light blue.

 

"These were working spaces, not country houses at sea as they appear now," Michael Crick-Smith said.

 

The good news for the current guardians of the ship, the National Museum of the Royal Navy at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, is that the Crick-Smiths discovered a remarkable amount of original material.

 

The upper decks are almost entirely reconstructions, but on the lower decks they discovered mainly original timber and hundreds of patches of original paint, dating all the way back to the very first paint scheme in 1765.

 

They also picked through a warehouse full of thousands of samples of timber removed from the ship in generations of repairs, and found many more. One sample of the ochre paint – "diabolical quality", Ian Crick-Smith said - came from an old capstan which was once used as a plinth for a bust of Nelson at Windsor Castle.

 

The Crick-Smiths came to the project after a heated Twitter exchange about some of the most unusual objects ever brought to the BBC's Antiques Roadshow: two battered wooden columns, claimed to have been taken from Victory at the period of the battle. Unfortunately their work demolished the claim: the timbers are from a ship, but not Victory. Their research is part of the most comprehensive restoration project since the ship was built at Chatham and the findings of the research will be taken into account”.

 

From Crick-Smith's own website are the following Youtube links if you enter them in you browser:

 

https://youtu.be/9miVcHgylhk

 

https://youtu.be/3O16e08S6tA

 

 

It doesn't answer the question of just how far you can spread the research across the entire ship from such microscopic analysis without knowing what structural elements were analysed and in what quantity.

 

Gary

Edited January 5, 2019 by Morgan
Typo

[dafi]

35 minutes ago, Morgan said:

It doesn't answer the question of just how far you can spread the research across the entire ship from such microscopic analysis without knowing what structural elements were analysed and in what quantity.

 

Gary

Exactly my point. Thank you for the text that nicely shows my suspicion.

 

The two shades of blue can be seen on the 1765 model of the Vic http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html lighter in the upper deck, darker on the middle deck.

 

The only place mentioned as provenance of the paint is a capstan, and that is a inbord usage of the paint. 

 

Most painters used the "usual" colors for the english ships. So does Turner, who saw the Vic before and after Trafalgar. As he is master of moods and colors my suspicion is that he would have not let the opportunity slip to use a more vivid color to point out this emotional ship.

 

Anyway I do believe with the quality standards of these days the ship should have looked much more like a patchwork, as each barrel of paint should have changed in tint 😉

 

XXXDAn

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by dafi

[Morgan]

Hi Dafi,

 

The statement “They also picked through a warehouse full of thousands of samples of timber removed from the ship in generations of repairs, and found many more.“ is the one that would be nice to see expanded, as it says there are thousands of samples over many years, and must have been from inside and out to be relied upon.

 

I’d like to see an inventory of what was examined, but without that I’m with Druxey on this one and we have to defer to the experts.  The National Museum of the Royal Navy would have to be absolutely certain of the research relied on (and paid for) before painting their ship ‘pink’ (as some see it).

 

Gary

[Morgan]

One more thought, the period of the Nelson Chequer prior to the 1922 luminous orange colour 😁 was relative short. It applied from the 1803 refit to 1814 at the latest, as from this date the bands were white, not ochre. So assuming during the Baltic years she remained in Nelson’s colours, only a maximum of some 11 out of 250 years did she have ochre stripes.  All the pre 1800 paintings seem to show her in rosin (or varnish) and black above the waterline.

 

Gary

Edited January 5, 2019 by Morgan