Mary Rose 1545 by tarbrush - Scale 1:72

[Louie da fly]

I haven't actually taken the time to look at them. I was just after a particular reference. I'll have to follow up on this myself as well.

 

Speaking of links, you might like the one here, too.

[tarbrush]

whoa!  thanks Steven!!  those research papers and theses from Texax A&M are really a treasure!  I have many happy hours of reading ahead of me.  what a great resource!  and by that I mean you as well as the papers and theses.

[tarbrush]

just a quick update, I have started gluing frames on,  things are going ok but slow.  I am hoping to get all the frames glued on by next Saturday, then starts the fun of detailing the inside.

 

[Omega1234]

Very nice!

[NMBROOK]

Looking good John!!

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[Louie da fly]

I recently bought a second hand book called The Great Explorers by Samuel Eliot Morison. If you'd believe it, I got it while visiting a Buddhist monastery that has a celebrated rose garden, and they had a bunch of tables with all kinds of old books for $2 each. I got a Hornblower and a few others, and the Morison.

 

It's amazing! It was published in 1976 and has all kinds of fascinating stuff. Some of it's a little dated, but mostly it's pure gold. The most recent things I've found in it are references from a source called "The Complaynt of Scotlande", written in 1548, and which is available in full on-line at https://archive.org/stream/complayntofscotl00leyd#page/n9/mode/2up .

 

It begins with a 292 page preliminary dissertation written in the 19th century of  which pp 110-122 contain quite a bit of information on sailing usage and terms from the 16th century. Then in the main body of the work, pp61-65 contain a description of a galeass (local name for a 3 masted square rigger with oars, apparently, not the Mediterranean galleass we all know and love) getting under way, along with the sea chanteys used, the sequence of raising sails etc.

 

Warning - this is in the English used in lowland Scotland in the mid 16th century, so it's a bit hard to follow. But after a while you start to get the hang of it. For example, on p62, the master cries "Two men above to the foretop to cut the ribands [holding the sail furled] and let the foresail fall. Haul down the starbord luff hard aboard. Haul aft the foresail sheet, haul out the bowline . . ." etc.

 

Amazing stuff.

 

Steven

Edited December 8, 2014 by Louie da fly

[tarbrush]

thanks Steven, I'll check it out. 

[tarbrush]

What a revolting development this is

Today I took Mary Rose out of the building jig and took it into the house to look at on top of the cabinet it is going to go on.  When I sat it down on the kitchen table I had a view of it that let me see it was lopsided.  there is more ship on one side of the keel  than the other.  sigh.  I have to decide what to do.  finish a crooked hull or start over.  Right now I am leaning toward starting over.  It may come out for the best I will do it differently next time and it may not take as long to re-do everything as it did the first time.

 

[mtaylor]

John,

 

From an interested observer... you might put it back in the jig and recheck before doing anything.  It looks like the keel might have a bit of warp and thus, an optical illusion.  If it is warped, remove and save the frames.  Fix keel and put frames back on.  I hope it's as easy as that and you won't have to start over.

[Tuffarts]

You could leave the warp in the keel to fix the ships problem with left turns

[Omega1234]

Hi John

 

I think Mark's right. Would be worth a try; rather than restarting all over again.

 

Good luck!

[NMBROOK]

Hi John

I can see the reason for despair,however I think there is no need to start again completely.I think this has happened due to the method of frame support shown in post 33.Supporting the frames at the bottom is OK provided the frames are exactly the correct shape and the middle of the frame tops are checked to be running true with a level,square or string line to the centreline.

I would debond the frames from forecastle back.Replace the assembly in the jig and add some tall supports to keel and prow that extend up above the highest frame.Adding temporary braces across the tops of the frames allows you to mark centrelines on.A length of cotton between the jig uprights front and rear can then be used to check these centrelines are infact plumb to the keel.

By all means refit in the jig and check before a stripdown,but I feel the sternpost is leaning the wrong way for this to be a simple case of 'spring' upon removal from the jig.

I wish you the best of luck with resolving this problem,but you are not alone,there are many members here to help you through this.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[Louie da fly]

John,

 

My sympathies, but all is not lost. I find when something like this happens, it's good to leave the project for awhile, go off and do something else, give yourself a chance to take stock and gain a fresh perspective, and often a solution will present itself when everything originally looked hopeless.

 

I think Nigel's advice is very good. You have a lot of assets there that can be re-used - all those frames are still fine, and it looks to me that the keel is too. It takes more work, but I find the painful learning experiences stay with me longer than the easy ones. By the time you start your next build you'll have worked out how to avoid this problem and you'll be that far ahead of where you started out with this one.

 

This is a good build. Best of success with it, and keep your chin up.

 

Steven

[tarbrush]

Thank so much for the suggestions and encouragement guys!  I really appreciate it. 

I will be leaving to spend Christmas with my son and his family, after the grand-kids are done playing with me I am sure it will be a tremendous relief to get back to modeling.

 

Merry Christmas everyone

[bear]

Hi

 

I would start by cutting the keel between each frame and then debonding the keel section from the frames one at a time.Make a new keel and a new lineup jig.

 

You need one that will have a center bar going in line with the keel about deck level so that you can center up each frame on center to the keel up at the deck level. At the keel you can center with the notch that is in the frames,but you could have an outer bar on each side (making sure that they are equal distance from the centerline) and have them out from the frames,so that you can measure the gap between the frame and bar. Then you can adjust the frame until it is centered between the bar and equal distance on both sides.

 

Bottom line is that you need to be able to measure the frame to the keel at the top and bottom,and make sure that they are equal distance to the center. You can not have a tight enough joint at the keel that insures that the frame will be centered at the top. You have already proven that with your frames and keel now.

 

It's a lesson that all of us go thruat least you had not put your whales on or planking or deck.

 

Keith 

[Jaekon Lee]

Hi, John. You are building very attractive ship. I hope you can fix the problem soon and enjoy the following works. Merry Christmas.

 

Lee

[tarbrush]

Well back to work on Mary Rose after a little vacation.

When I got back home the hull looked even worse to me than it did before I went on vacation.   I am almost glad I have to start over, and I am sure it will come out better this time.  I have been thinking I will try doing the re-build in an upside down Harold Hahn type jig. 

So far I have re-made the keel/stem/sternpost and have make the sloltted base for the build jig. 

 

One idea that I am toying with is building the hull in 3 sections.  Midship section, Sterncastle and Forecastle.  I am thinking it would be easier to detail the interior of the hull with the end of the section open, then join them together.   Any thoughts on that? 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2014 by tarbrush

[Omega1234]

Hi John

 

I've also toyed with the idea of building a hull in three sections to enable the interior to be built more easily. Although I've never actually done so, it would seem to make logical sense.

 

If you do decide to do Mary Rose in this way, then I have no doubt it'll work out beautifully. The only trick would be to ensure that all the interior aligns perfectly once the sections are joined; but, other than that, why not?

 

All the best fir 2015 and happy building.

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[marktiedens]

Hi John -

I can`t really offer any useful advice since I haven`t done a fully framed model but you may have an issue with plank butts all lining up instead of being staggered - unless you waited to plank until after the sections were joined. Anyway,it does sound like a good idea.

 

/Mark

[bear]

Hi John

 

Here's a photo of my 1/80 Mary Rose's main gun deck. The Jotika kit has made it flat,so I put a deck above it with the crown and sweep that the upper decks have.

I planked it with basswood and on the frames ,I reshaped the knee areas on the plywood frames from just a square upper deck support,to the correct knee shape. I reduced the thickness of the ply frame down to 1/8". The reshaped ply,now in rising knee form was then covered with 1/32 walnut veneer. I then stained them with Minwax Golden Oak stain.

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tarbrush]

hi Keith, thanks for posting a photo of your Mary Rose, it looks great and makes really excited to get to that stage on my model.  Have you started a build log?

I would love to see more pictures of your model!

[tarbrush]

thanks Patrick and Mark for your encouragement.

Maybe I have found a use for my wreck model, try installing some interior detail to see how difficult it will be.  Mary Rose is deep hulled and thinking of trying to install the knees, riders, stove and lighting etc. sounds real fiddly on a fully framed hull, the section idea is really appealing though as you have pointed out will create some difficulties of it's own.  Now I am  really glad I have a scrap hull to experiment on!

[mtaylor]

John,

 

Have a look at Jeronimo's (Karl) Bonhomme Richard build. He's done the stern, mid-section, and now the bow separately.   I don't know if he plans to put all three pieces together though.

[NMBROOK]

Great to see you back in the shipyard John.You could detail the model in sections but I would be tempted to build the frame as one in the jig,then split,then rejoin to fit the external planking.I have only seen a handful of models that are split and join back together.Most notable is Arthur Molle's Sovereign

 

http://gerard.delacroix.pagesperso-orange.fr/royal_souverain/R_Souverain01.htm

 

I have also seen footage of a model of Le Fleuron split at the waterline and the top raised up on two electric rams!!!! I have a feeling this was on a video of one of the Japanese 'Rope' exhibitions.

 

Happy New Year

 

Nigel

[tarbrush]

thanks Nigel, that sounds like a good plan.

[tarbrush]

well progress has been slow but I think the upside down jig will work out good.

 

 

 

nothing is glued yet, I plan to get all the frames done and rough shaped before I cut the insides of the frame and begin gluing things up.

Edited January 14, 2015 by tarbrush

[Omega1234]

Coming along very nicely!  Well done.

[tarbrush]

time for another update, I have all the frame blanks made, and have cut and fit the major body plan stations, now I will put the bevel on each frame before cutting the inside face of the frames.

 

 

 

 

I just had to see what it was going to look like with the inside edge of the frames cut, so I did the first four midship frames, nothing has been glued yet.  I am going to wait to glue anything till I am satisfied I have a fair hull.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Omega1234]

Hi John

 

What a transformation from the rough frame blanks through to the finished frames in the last photo. I'm a lot like you in the sense that I'm often impatient to see the final product...so I totally understand why you would've shaped those four frames first.

 

All in all, she's looking really nice. Pls keep the photos coming!

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[tarbrush]

Long time between updates but I have been working steadily, just slow.  I am going to go ahead with making the hull in three pieces.  I will do much of the interior of the hull,  hanging knees and riders while it is in 3 pieces.  then put it back in the building jig and join the pieces with the planking.  fingers crossed on that.

 

So far I have the bow and stern portion made and rough sanded and I was delighted to find they can be removed from the building jig and then put back on with no trouble whatever.  The next job will be to finish the center portion, then the fun work of detailing the interior begins. 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2015 by tarbrush