HMS Druid by kruginmi - 1:48 - cross-section - Hahn

[kruginmi]

As the planning starts, so does the log.  With my admiralty hull finally back home after a month road trip around town I am more convinced than ever that a cross section is needed.  With a variety of questions being consistently asked about the layout of the internals and how did this or that happen, the cross section would be perfect.

 

 

Being a cross section it will fit on the mantle but also bring home the resultant size of the full ship with the full main mast being present.

 

The first question is where to define the cut lines.  After looking at the plans I am looking at the following layout (frames 18-27):

 

 

Being a Hahn plan, there are no knees defined (not seen at all in the full model).  In this case they will be seen so I will add those in.  I am a little lucky in that this is an American built cargo ship purchased and converted by the British.  So......I do not necessarily have to follow exact British standards of the time.  I am pretty sure I will put in at least one futtock rider.

 

I am thinking of fully planking the outer hull inside and out both sides, but then one half of the inner hull decks will be left with all floor beams exposed.  The fully deck planked side will be fit out with ballast, water and food casks, cannon (kids happy about that) with associated tools and probably a hammock or two.

 

The rigging will be that which is possible.  I am thinking about having sails (lower one furled).  I have picked up the masting plans for the Brilliant / Druid in the possession of the Smithsonian.  That is a big help.  Lots of scratching of the head on tie down positions with the added quarterdeck extension.

 

Now to start on the frames.  I will not use the short cut frames jig provided but will go with more of wood saving futtock by futtock method (modified) - still using the inverted building stand / jig.

 

Stay Building my Friends,

Mark

[gjdale]

I'll be interested to follow along with this one Mark. Your full ship is a real beauty, so the cross section should be a piece of cake for you.

[captainbob]

I just added a cross section to my list.

 

Bob

[kruginmi]

First thing I wanted to do was understand the scale of what I was attempting.  I grabbed some tracing paper and drew all the pieces in the correct place.  Not too surprised, but this comes in at 28" tall (sans base).  The admiral's eyes bugged out a little at the plan but it is full speed away (or full speed as my time allows).

 

 

This is just a planning tool, it wasn't drawn absolutely accurately for all of the details.  I am feeling pretty pumped for building this.  Lots of new skills to learn and do.  I am also leaning towards adding actual people into the scene.  The 1/48 scale Hasegawa aircraft ground crew shows promise with some modifications.  It will be neat to have a couple of people swinging in their hammocks on the berth deck, haven't seen that too often.

 

Stay building my friends,

Mark

[kruginmi]

Now to get down to business - the frames.  I created four copies of each of the frame patterns.  Two of the copies were allocated to creating the patterns for the two layers of each frame.  I intend to keep a millimeter or so of extra wood on either side of each piece.

 

 

Once the pieces are rough cut to their dimensions I will cut the join edges using my sled on the Byrnes saw.  Then the frames will be glued together individually over the third plan (with wax paper).  Once each half is complete, the fourth plan will be glued onto the resultant frame before final shaping.

 

I will super detail the exposed frame face of each side of the cross section, but will leave the rest as shown.  With full planking the others will not be seen.

 

More pics to follow showing that.  You can see I am still using the baseboard (built upside down).  Hope to have the first frame together this weekend.

 

Stay Building my Friends,

Mark

[ASAT]

Mark, the full model turned out great! You really pulled off that figurehead carving - I was wondering how that was going to turn out - great execution throughout and that has to be the best looking basswood model I have ever seen!! I am going to do the Granado cross section from MSB so I am hoping to steal some of your awesome techniques from this build. How is the Lady Anne coming? I finished my Harvey - guess I should update that log....  I am hoping to do a couple of Hahn's models after I retire as well, I have the Cromwell and Confederacy plans - did you do the full model using separate futtocks also or did you use the traditional method? if you did the stacked frame blanks can you give some comparison for both methods? I was wondering how it would be to build the frames up using the futtock method but still leave the extensions on and use the upside down method for framing. Are you going to build up the frames in two halfs and then glue the halfs together or are you going to layer them up as you build up each futtock? Also how did you determine where to section the futtock lines? Did you use the frame blank drawings from the plans or use the TLAR method? Keep up the great work and the great detail you provide in your logs, I learn a lot from referencing your work and the beautiful results you achieve motivate me to continually improve my own efforts. Thanks for sharing your passion for perfection with us....

 

Lou

[kruginmi]

Lou, great to hear from you!  You certainly have power packed comments so I inject my answers in red:

 

How is the Lady Anne coming?

The Lady Anne awaits sitting on the shelf in my workshop.  I still intend on getting back to her someday.  Part of my issue is where to put her once she is complete.  I need a couple more kids out of the house…..

 

I finished my Harvey - guess I should update that log....  

Yes you should.  Beautiful workmanship and you are holding out on us!

 

I am hoping to do a couple of Hahn's models after I retire as well, I have the Cromwell and Confederacy plans –

I have really enjoyed my experience.  I have all of his plans and am sure a couple more builds are in my future from them.  I have had my eyes on the Confederacy but with the kit being available I am thinking of choosing another one.  They certainly build big!  At 28” high, the masted Druid would be quite the handful to move around.

 

did you do the full model using separate futtocks also or did you use the traditional method? if you did the stacked frame blanks can you give some comparison for both methods? I was wondering how it would be to build the frames up using the futtock method but still leave the extensions on and use the upside down method for framing.

For the full model I used his jig for speed (plus it was easier).  It does use a good deal of wood but he is very open that he used it because he had a lot of wood on hand.  My current method will definitely be slower but will deliver very close to the same finished result.  I really like the upside down base because it defines a very rigid reference line to measure specific points to both sides with certainty (deck clamps, gun ports, etc.).  Once you have the keel centered and leveled, you can be sure both sides are good.  More on that later in the build.

 

Are you going to build up the frames in two halfs and then glue the halfs together or are you going to layer them up as you build up each futtock?

I am currently thinking about gluing the separate halves together once complete.  However I will try it out on the first frame and see how that goes.

 

Also how did you determine where to section the futtock lines? Did you use the frame blank drawings from the plans or use the TLAR method?

I took the lines off of the jig locations as reference points.  As an American built ship, I certainly have the ability to do whatever I want.  Those crazy colonials did not subscribe to rigid systems – especially with cargo ships.

 

Learn, Learn, Learn, try, try, try.  Always a new discovery but you have to build!

 

Mark

[kruginmi]

You make progress when you can.  I have affixed the futtock templates for ten half frames using around one and a third  boards (3 inch by 24 inch, 1/8 inch thick).  For comparison sake, using the expedited method created two half frames per board length if memory serves correct.

 

 

Many different techniques that probably vary with wood type, but for basswood I evenly apply a coat of rubber cement to the wood and allow to dry, usually around 5 minutes.  Then I apply a second coat and apply the paper templates to the wet surface.  You have around 5 seconds of maneuver time to slide them around before I apply pressure from the center and rub outwards to insure flat and totally affixed.

 

After getting the other ten halves affixed I will rough cut out using the scroll saw and cut the mating joints using the Byrnes saw with my sled.

 

Mark

[AntonyUK]

Hi Mark.

It will be nice to have a Druid cross section on the forum.

Will follow this with interest.

So much detail can be added to a cross section that is not visible with full length builds.

 

Regards Antony.

[kruginmi]

Totally agree Antony on the added detail.  As a companion piece it will add a lot based on the experience I have had on the comments offered to the full Druid.

 

At the very least being fully planked externally (and coppered) I will hopefully get less questions about if ships were normally open on the bottom....

 

This afternoon I get to make cookies with my four year old so further work will have to wait (single parenting this weekend).

 

Mark

[Chuck Seiler]

Mark,

 

    What wood are you using for the frames?

[kruginmi]

Chuck - the Krug favorite:  basswood.

 

BTW:  Currently watching Dirty Jobs as he works on the Star of India.  I used to go to San Diego a lot in a previous job and was lucky enough to actually attended a San Diego Ship Modelers Guild meeting.  You guys are pretty lucky and motivated!

[Chuck Seiler]

Basswood?  I'm impressed.  I am not happy working with basswood in many cases because it doesn't seem to hold a good edge and fuzzes easily.  Your edges on the DRUID look very crisp.  Do you prep it in any way?

[kruginmi]

Chuck, 

 

I really haven't had that much trouble keeping the edges sharp.  I use sharp tools always and do a last swipe on the edge with sandpaper to eliminate most stray strands (if any).  You definitely don't want to sand or anything else when Basswood is wet / damp - definitely fuzzes.

 

So no prep other than to insure the wood is dry.  I buy most of my pre-milled stock at the local hobby store in 3" by 24" by thickness planks as I need it.

 

As I said before, I enjoy working with basswood.  If it wasn't around, the Druid would not have been built.  Not for everything (finer details are boxwood) but 95% of the Druid is Basswood.

 

I will be experimenting this time around with different stains to get some more accurate colors (such as the external hull planking).  That should be interesting.  The current thought is once again, 95% of the cross section will be Basswood.

 

Mark

[kruginmi]

As we say in the Army, no plan survives first contact and it was proven true once again.

 

After rubber cementing the futtock templates to the Basswood sheet (grain oriented correctly) I cut each one out with about a 1/16" buffer, which was sanded to shape on the drum sander.  For the joining edges I used my sled on the table saw for precise angles (match the cuts).  Guaranteed straight and perfect 90 degrees.  I could shave off a 1/64th safely using this method.

 

 

The first layer was finalized (paper template removed) and glued together piece by piece over a copy of the frame (with wax paper). Then I finished each piece of the second layer and added each one separately to the existing finished layer.  I had thought of making the second layer independently and then joining both whole layers together but the piece by piece looked to be the better and more accurate solution.

 

In the following pic I was using the second layer pieces as clamp aids for the first layer.

 

 

After everything dried I did a gentle sanding by hand of all the surfaces.

 

 

I finished frame 19 first (second one in) since it will be totally covered up.  After I am confident in my technique I can then do the exposed frames of 18 and 27 (one side exposed each).  Next up is frame 26 so I can also start working on the base jig and get that trued up.  With everything going on, hope to have the skeleton complete and setup during Christmas break.

 

Very happy with this approach.  More time than with the original Druid but a lot less wood.

 

Mark

[ASAT]

Looks great Mark, those upper spacers (ribbands?) should help keep everything nice and true, are you using them to determine the c/l of the frames as well?

[gjdale]

I like your use of the table saw / sled arrangement for cutting the end joints Mark. Do you feel this is more accurate than using a disc sander?

[kruginmi]

Grant - I do believe the sled is more accurate than the disc sander.  I am not pushing the material into the sander, but positioning it exactly as I want on the sled before cutting.  Greater control (the piece in question never moves by itself).  Guaranteed 90 degree angle.  Also no possible rocking or wobble on the join end resulting from inserting or extracting the piece from the sander.

 

Lou - Can't figure out what you mean by c/l and am 'assuming' you are referring to my cross brace at the top of the frame.  In my previous Druid I had noticed even with all the effort of cutting an accurate jig for the base being off a millimeter here or there (or more) was easy to do.  This resulted in frames being slightly compressed or pushed out.  This was accounted for in more sanding of the whole hull.  This just seemed a natural solution to keep everything trued up.  My goal is not to clamp to the jig but it should just slip in and glue (once assured it is centered).

 

Mark

[gjdale]

Thanks for your answer Mark. I may have to give this a try myself. Of course, I'd first have to build the sled I've been promising myself for months!

[rjones726]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for sharing your technique. I'm a first time scratch-builder working on a Triton cross section. I've been using a disc sander as you describe to true the end joints. It is working but you really need a gentle touch and it takes several tries to get it right. I'm going to borrow your idea and use my table saw with sled. Sounds like a much better way to get the job done right. 

 

v/r,

 

Rob

[ASAT]

Mark, I was reefering to using the cross bracesto establish the centerline ( c/l)

[kruginmi]

I of course need to add the exclaimer - SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY.  My saw blade is set to just clear the height of the wood and I always keep my fingers clear of the blade path.  I use push down blocks, clamps (when possible) and always try to set the wood to be trimmed against the back stop to act as a support and solid point of contact.  That being said, the sled cannot be beat.  As said previously, 90% of my straight trim cuts are done with the sled.

 

Further note, if the cut I am making produces scrap wood in excess of the blade width I will either insure that scrap is held down itself or I will trim off board prior to the final cut.  I will not put my face too close with a possible piece flying off (safety glasses always please).

 

Lou - of course centerline:  just hadn't worked my brain that far ahead.

 

One of my big lessons learned over time is that clamp power does not equal accuracy.  Before I would use anything to insure rock solid clamping but with time I realized solid support and accuracy came with proper preparation.  With the cross brace defining proper width, measuring the proper height of the frame and centerline defined that should define where to glue to the base, not the base itself (though of course it should be close).

[kruginmi]

For a more in depth description of my sled see:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3191-hms-druid-by-krug-148-hahn/?view=findpost&p=191005

 

Mark

 

 

[Chuck Seiler]

Mark,

 

    When you are cutting your butt ends/join ends, what are you using as reference plane?  Obviously you are using the line on the plan, but since the frames are curved, how do you ensure the angle is true?

[kruginmi]

Chuck,

 

On the full frame plans I determined first where the futtock lines will reside by annotating points on the outside of the frame.  I then essentially eyeballed close to a 90 degree cut across the frame and penciled this line in with a straight edge.

 

After cutting out the entire frame and insuring the individual futtocks were sequentially numbered, I cut across these lines to define each individual futtock template.  This insures the cut angle is absolutely true futtock to futtock.

 

Does that answer the question?

 

If I ever lost any of the futtock templates, it would take a bit of work to redefine a replacement to insure these angles are true.

[Chuck Seiler]

Does that answer the question?

 

Not really.  I understand how you get the 90 degree line on the template to begin with, but I don't understand how you get a good cut without just eyeballing it.  As I see it, because the futtocks are curved, you may not (probably won't) get a true right angle cut if you brace the futtock on the back wall of the sled. 

 

DO you have a pic of how the futtocks sit in the sled? 

[kruginmi]

Okay, I think I understand now - the reference plane used on the sled is the zero clearance slit.

 

You are correct, because of the curved futtocks I cannot clamp them against the back wall.  I do try to hold at least a point of the futtock against the back wall to insure when the blade makes contact the piece is not pushed out of alignment.

 

The alignment is with the zero clearance slit that the blade travels through.  So I look down across the targeted cut and its alignment with this slit.  I do not go for the money cut right off but pair the excess away so I am less than a blade's width excess when making the final cut.  The pieces are pretty light so small pressure downwards on the piece is sufficient to hold it to the sled through the cut itself.  The back wall of the sled also includes the zero clearance slit so that is actually easier to line up.  Additionally remember that every cut is 90 degrees to the blade.  So when I align the bottom forward part of the futtock to the slit this mirrors the effect on the top.

 

As each cut is engaged you can see the accuracy with respect to the paper template (but it will always be dead on straight).  Obviously the goal is to never get too heavy with the cut, but walk up to the cut.  I can shave very small adjustments by doing this.

 

I am 'hoping' to get back to the shop tonight and will grab some shots.

 

For the general audience:  I am pushing the futtock down onto the sled, but the force to push the sled is exerted by thumbs behind the rear fence well out of harms ways.  As well the blade just clears the futtock height.  This is very controlled.  With the sled and futtock essentially becoming one piece you have safe control of what is occurring.

 

Mark

[Chuck Seiler]

Mark,

 

   I think I am on the same page now.  As the frame is sitting in the sled, the cut is 90 degrees from bottom to top, but the actual cut still needs to be eyeballed in order to conform with the line on the template.  The cutline in the sled/zero clearance slit lines up with the intended cut line on the frame.

[kruginmi]

In the Army there is a saying that no plan survives first contact, and it looks like it applies to ship modeling also.  After butchering a frame and a half I took a step back and reevaluated how I was making the frames.  After punching out three successful frames I have found what works for me.

 

I still used the rough cut out futtock pieces (trying to get a 1/16" buffer around).  I then proceeded to exact cut the join edges without refining the other edges.

 

 

The layers were then independently glued together over an uncut picture of the frame.  I omitted the upper pieces on the top layer to allow both layers to be aligned.

 

Then using a faux keel for center alignment and matching the upper parts of the frames the frames were glued together.

 

 

For the final steps after drying I used the spindle sander to finalize the frame outline and removed the last of the paper templates.

 

 

This is what worked for me.  Now just to get the rest of these frames finished off (if I can keep the rest of the family from getting the flu).

 

Stay Building My Friends,

Mark

[mtaylor]

Looks great, Mark.   I had thought about doing frames for the whole ship that way, but it is a pain and time consuming.