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Louie da fly

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  1. Louie da fly
    You could be right, Druxey. None of the Yenikapi galleys had deck planks because they were only single-banked. The archaeological drawing of YK4 has hull planking widths which do vary somewhat, from about 350 to 500mm. However, the wider planks are closest to the keel, and it's a bit hard to tell whether the variation is real or an illusion caused by looking straight down on the curve of the hull at the turn of the bilge. I don't know that there is any particular reason the deck planks should all be the same width, but I'll think about it. Steven
  2. Louie da fly
    Thanks, Mark. Very informative and helpful. Steven
  3. Louie da fly
    First deck planking. Beginning the decking on the prymne. Also I've run a temporary batten tacked in place with a few spots of glue, with one edge running along the centre line of the ship to fix the run of the main deck planks. And I've completed the plating on the spur. Prymne decking complete and partly sanded. One plank has been glued next to the batten between the break of the poop and the hatch; once all that line of planks are in place the batten will be removed. I still have to complete the sanding on the prymne and cut off the planks in a straight line at the break of the poop. And then get onto the main planking in earnest. (It's important to be Earnest - ask Oscar Wilde) Steven
  4. Louie da fly
    Thanks, Druxey. I was really just after a ball-park sort of figure, and what you've provided is very helpful. The TAMU paper I have contains some archaeological finds of links which I'll also have another look at, though if I remember correctly they're from several centuries too late. Still, any information that helps me to a decision is worthwhile. A dromon with a crew of over 100 shouldn't have too much of a problem finding enough men to man the pumps. They weren't always rowing and even when they were, much of the time not all the oars were in use. Steven
  5. Louie da fly
    She's looking good, John. I've been enjoying following this log - very interesting, particularly from a research point of view, and the personal connection adds to the interest even further. Hope the health problems get sorted out and you'll be free to get back and enjoy yourself to the fullest with the build. Steven
  6. Louie da fly
    Can you still get that stuff? I used it for the sails of my Great Harry model way back in the 60's, but I thought it had vanished off the face of the earth. I have to warn you, however, that my sails went all brown and brittle over the decades, but that may have been the mistreatment and neglect after I stuffed the part-demolished model in a cardboard box and left it for about 40 years. (I'd intended to fix it all up, but moved states, changed jobs and repeatedly changed address and got on with other things in life. I still intend to fix it up after the current build and I'll probably do a better job now than I would have then). Steven
  7. Louie da fly
    Another question - does anyone know how big the top cogwheels of the chain pump were/should be? Is there a sort of standard size, or does it vary with the size of ship? And if it varies, how big should they be for a dromon - a ship 30 metres (90 feet) long that is long and narrow? Rough estimates totally acceptable. I just want to get an idea of the size I should be looking at for my chain pumps, because currently I have no idea at all except for trying to estimate it from looking at pictures of them on models. Thanks in advance, Steven
  8. Louie da fly
    Hi, Lin. The Trincomalee is a very worthwhile model to make and you're doing a very good job on her. I've always wanted to do one of HMS Shannon, which was pretty much a sister ship of the Trincomalee. Just a question - did you have already existing plans to work from or did you draft them yourself? I don't consider myself an expert carver (there are much better ones on this forum alone), but you might like to look at page 7 of my own build log (near the bottom of the page) going from blocks of wood to finished figures. I use pear wood as it has a nice tight grain. I concur with Druxey's points: *Making a plasticiene test piece works very well, particularly with a difficultly shaped figure. I cut a rectangular section block of wood to start with, so I can draw on all four faces if I need to. *I make the block about twice the length of the figure so I have something to hold onto while I'm carving. This is a variant on Druxey's idea but works the same. I cut the piece roughly to shape with a coping saw, then remove unwanted wood with a Stanley knife, then for fine detail move on to a scalpel with a No. 11 blade (you can buy them from some chemists or medical suppliers, along with the proper scalpel handle) - I don't like the "craft knives with a similar blade - I find the blade always seems to come unscrewed at the worst possible moment. I cut away in "layers" - leaving the highest profile bits in place and cutting away deeper and deeper as appropriate to the specific part of the figure. The absence of bloodstains on the figure indicates you're probably already careful with sharp blades, but care is vital. Also use Youtube. There are some very good videos out there which are well worth watching. Have fun with it. Steven
  9. Louie da fly
    Different artistic conventions. I believe the "big" eye was the way things were done (look at the eyes on Greek galleys) though our own sensibilities seem to demand something a little more subtle. Steven
  10. Louie da fly
    Nice work, Patrick. And an ingenious solution for the rudder attachment. A very enjoyable build to follow. Steven
  11. Louie da fly
    Thanks everybody for all the likes and the kind comments. Don, just tried it. Through the cargo hatch no worries (you have to slide the oar through the hatch at a small angle above the horizontal - and have someone below decks to receive it), a rather tighter squeeze through the companionway, but it can just be done. I'm now finishing the plating on the spur and also just beginning at least part of the deck planking. Other projects I'm looking at are getting under way on the yards and making the anchors. Here are pictures of the anchor from the contemporaneous Byzantine Serce Limani ship. Judging by the size compared to a human the scale is presumably in centimetres. The anchor in 1:50 scale is just over 1mm thick at its thickest point and I'll be making them in 1mm sheet brass and then colouring them to look like iron. I have a cunning plan to get that extra bit of thickness in the brass where it matters - cutting the shank a little too wide and then annealing and belting it with a hammer so it gets narrower and thicker. Should be fun. Steven
  12. Louie da fly
    Very nice work, Igor. Beautiful boats. Steven
  13. Louie da fly
    Yes, I'm afraid it is - see post #271 on page 10 of this thread to see why. I finally decided I'd have to accept the slight out-of-squareness after my repairs, because it would have required just too much extra work to correct. I decided I'd just have to put it down to experience, and I'll know more for the next build. Steven
  14. Louie da fly
    Finally finished the deck beams. Here are some progress pictures. Still quite a way to go Gradually closing up the gaps. Finished! There are four openings - two for the masts, one for a cargo hatch and the other for a companionway. And here are some of the wood shavings from making the last lot of beams. Note that this little table is currently all I have of workspace, so it gets pretty cluttered and I tend to lose things. But I have a cunning plan, which cannot possibly fail . . . And here is a view of the completed beams from the bow. For a first effort at this level, I don't think it's too bad. Now I have to work out what planking I can do while still leaving enough visibility below decks to put the lower bank of oars in place. Nice to have got this far. A real milestone! Steven
  15. Louie da fly
    That's pretty amazing. The stern rudder must have been invented by the Liburnae and lost again, because it doesn't reappear for about another 1500 years! They survived as a major naval power from at least the time of the carving (5th/6th century BC) to the second half of the 1st century BC. According to Wikipedia, the source of all knowledge, at some point they evolved from monoremes to biremes and made such an impression on the Romans that they copied the liburna and even adopted its name for their own light fast ships. The name persisted for centuries, long after the Liburnae themselves were forgotten as a race. How long they kept these stern rudders is anybody's guess; they may have dropped them in favour of side rudders themselves, in imitation of their neighbours, or they may have kept them until they themselves vanished as a seagoing power. But why wouldn't the cultural flow go the other way as well? Why don't we see others copying the stern rudder? Are side rudders more effective in galleys than stern rudders? There appears to be evidence in favour of that - according to Lawrence Mott's 1991 TAMU thesis The Development of the Rudder, A.D. 100-1600 - A Technological Tale, side rudders are more efficient and give better control than do stern rudders. As I understand it, this is because the keel doesn't interfere with the water flow. Very interesting. Steven
  16. Louie da fly
    Thanks for the replies. That helps clear a few things up. Just to clarify, the top of the pump mechanism (the top wheels and the handles) would be on the upper deck itself? (I think I've already answered this, but I'd like to make sure.) And regarding the dales, a pipe or hose across the upper deck leading to a scupper on each side? Thanks again. Steven
  17. Louie da fly
    Progress on the deck beams. Earlier in the thread, the effect of the spur's weight on the ship's trim was discussed, and I decided that storing the water barrels aft should offset the weight of the spur. So I've put a hatch about 1.5x1.2 metres (5'x4') aft of the middle mast to allow for the water barrels to be lowered into the hull. It's in the second photo but doesn't show up well because I took the photo with too little light. I discovered the beam shelves for the prymne (poop deck) were a bit out of alignment with those for the main deck, which caused the prymne's deck beams to be angled upwards towards the port side. Not very much, really, and my inner demon told me "go on, leave it - nobody will notice". But I'll notice, and if I didn't fix it, it would sneer at me for the rest of time. So one by one I'm taking off the beams and shaving the bottoms at the port end, so effectively the beam will be returned to the horizontal. I've done three so far. You can see the difference in the photo below. A lot of fiddly work, but worth it in the long run. Oh, and I had a very fortunate find. I wanted some chain to support the spur, and had decided to visit all the local op shops (charity stores) to see if there were any cheap jewellery chains I could get hold of. But before I did, my wife and I visited our local branch of Ishka, a shop that sells stuff with a hippie emphasis, Indonesian furniture, that kind of stuff. Found a multiple-chained necklace for $12.50, reduced to 50% on sale, exactly right for the dromon. But that wasn't the best thing. A necklace with really fine chains, in black metal (what, like iron?), already reduced from $24.50 to $5.00, further reduced by 50% to $2.50! I checked to see if this really was the price and being told it was, went and got the only other one in the shop as well. Ideal for the grapnel chain for my sadly neglected Great Harry model which is on the list for eventual restoration and repair. Score! Here's the chain with the spur. I now have enough chain to outfit a fleet! Anyone in Oz wanting some really cool chain might be well advised to check Ishka out. Steven
  18. Louie da fly
    I have some questions regarding chain pumps. Apparently these are the most appropriate pumps for my Byzantine dromon (as remnants were found on the contemporary Byzantine Serce Limani wreck). As I'd never heard of chain pumps before this week, I've done a search through previous posts and they've cleared up the worst of my iggerance, but I still have a few questions. * In the models I've seen, chain pumps always seem to come in pairs - a port and a starboard one. Was this always the case? There were never any single chain pumps? * In all the pictures and models I've seen the pumps seem to be cut off at the outlet (the dale?). Am I right in thinking this leads to scuppers via a pipe or hose? * The dromon only has one deck; the upper deck (if you ignore a little poop deck). So would the pumps and dales be on this upper deck? * In an earlier thread which dealt with chain pumps Druxey replied I realise this is a very different kind of ship from a completely different time and culture and I do have the Serce Limani ship still to check, but lacking surviving evidence to the contrary, would I be safe enough putting the chain pumps "a few feet aft of the main mast"? Any help with these questions would be gratefully received. Steven
  19. Louie da fly
    Thanks everyone for the likes. Druxey and Pat, thanks for the comments. Mark, thanks very much for the link. I can't believe I hadn't bookmarked it for myself. I've found it very valuable in chasing up details for this and future proposed builds - including such things as pumps, lighting, lateen rig, seats of ease . . . Just in the last couple of days I've been researching pumps and discovered that though the Romans had chain pumps, they seem to have fallen out of use, at least in Western Europe, until the mid 15th century, when they were rediscovered by a Venetian who ascribed them to the "Tartars" (possibly the Turks? The Tartars weren't a seagoing race). However, the early 11th century Byzantine wreck found at Serce Limani had the remains of what's thought to be a housing for a chain pump, so I'm going to have one on my own model. All I have to do is get more information on what it would have looked like and where it would have been on the ship. The only pictures on the Net appear to be Captain Bentinck's "improved" version, and all the diagrams are a bit lacking in 3Dness. Steven
  20. Louie da fly
    Thanks everyone for the likes. Mark Pearse said: Mark, your comment inspired me to check the headroom belowdecks (something I hadn't thought about before) with one of my carved figures from earlier in the build. It turns out person approx 5'6" tall has the top of his head exactly level with the deck. So though the lower oarsmen might have to duck their heads to move around belowdecks (depending on how tall they were - someone 5'2" may have no trouble at all), it would possibly be no more difficult than in the ships of Nelson's time. More progress on the deck beams. Got as far as the foremast, and created an opening for the mast with intermediate beams at right angles; the deck beam that would otherwise go right across the ship at this point is cut and connects to these beams. I wasn't happy with the finish of the plating on the spur, so I've removed it on the starboard side. The main problem was the glue - I used a clear glue from a junk shop that professed to glue anything to anything. But it was lumpy when applied and made the plating have lumps and bumps. Also I cut the side plating too narrow, so there was a gap at the corner where it joined the plating on the bottom of the spur. This time I made the plating a tiny bit too wide so there was an overlap. Also I tried standard PVA white glue and was rather surprised to find it worked very well - I thought it only worked on wood. A very thin layer of glue, and when I clamped it all together, a very nice flat surface on the plating. Then I bent the surplus aluminium plate around the corner at top and bottom. This covered the join at the bottom, and at the top I filed off the overlapping plating with a fine file so it reached just to the top of the spur. When I do the top I'll bend the plating over both corners to cover the joins, which I think is probably how they did it back in the day. Some of the photos don't have a lot of detail because I took them in the evening when there was too little light. But I find it hard to work on this stuff in the daylight because the reflections are so bright I can't see the detail of what I'm working on. The joins between the plates were scored with an awl and the marks for the "nails" were made with the pointy end of a rat-tail file. They're less obvious this time - the ones I'd done before were too deep to be in scale. Here's the finished product for the starboard side; the port plating is still in progress. I think it looks considerably better than the previous version. Next I have to do the port side and the top, and then colour the plating to look like aged/oxidised bronze. Then I'll make the "iron" - the pointy bit at the business end. And in between times (in daylight) I'm continuing with the deck beams. Steven
  21. Louie da fly
    Dick, that's very interesting about the Contarina ship. The through-beams idea came from a doctoral thesis from TAMU which I was able to download, on the development of the rudder. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the site that offered all these TAMU theses and now I can't find it again. It may be that they've taken it down, which would be a shame. I did get to download all the ones I was interested in, however, so not all is lost. I've noticed that a reasonable number of mediaeval pictures show either one or the other of these sets of tackle, but I've only come across one source that shows both - a bas relief from the tomb of St Peter Martyr in the church of St Eustorgio in Milan, dated 1339 (see https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/photo/ship-in-storm-detail-from-tomb-of-saint-high-res-stock-photography/159618074 ). I'll probably be following this for my own rudders. Pat, it's good to have worked out these issues, but I have a feeling there'll be others just as difficult waiting down the track. Still, the detective work is perhaps the most interesting part of doing a conjectural reconstruction. Steven
  22. Louie da fly
    Here are the deck beams complete for the prymne (poop) in its new configuration. I've laid a couple of planks on the beams so you can see the (rather small) step between the prymne and the main deck. And as I got onto a roll, I started on the beams for the bow as well. When I get further into the main deck I need to make allowance for the deck furniture - at least one (or possibly two) hatches for a ladder below decks, maybe a cargo hatch, plus openings for the masts and also the stands to support the masts and the yards when they've been lowered. But that's yet to come . . . Steven
  23. Louie da fly
    Thanks for the likes. The reason for the problem is that in the original design the prymne was too short - it was both too short and too narrow to hold both the awning and the steersmen - see post 268 of 16 September 2017. By making it longer it also became wider, providing all the room needed. But to avoid the deck sticking out past the gunwale, it had to be lowered. The changes have resulted in about an 8" (200mm) step between the decks. Still not as much as I'd have liked, but enough to look somewhat respectable. It does mean that the steersman's feet are level with the gunwale, but as the rail of the pavesade (the structure to hold the shields at the sides of the ship) extends right back to meet the tail, he shouldn't be in danger of toppling off the side. Steven
  24. Louie da fly
    I put all the beams in for the prymne (poop deck) and dry-fitted planks on the prymne and the main deck. At that point I realised there was only about 4" difference in height - really not a proper poop deck. This problem goes back to the original design for the ship with its curved "tail" - the prymne was originally going to be quite a bit shorter, and extending it makes the line of the deck intersect the gunwale lower down - and there's not much I can do about it. If the poop is much higher it'll be above the gunwale, but I can at least raise it as much as possible. This of course involved removing all the deck beams for the poop, plus the beam shelf on which they rested. So I've done that, and put in a new beam shelf and the highest (sternmost) and lowest (furthest forward) beams, and now I've got to fill in the beams between them. Fortunately I can salvage the beams I took out. They may need to be adjusted in length, but I think I can re-use most of them. If not, they can go in the bow. Steven
  25. Louie da fly
    Beautiful work, Savo. What tools do you use for your woodcarving? Steven

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