allanyed

On 12/5/2023 at 6:32 AM, mgdawson said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the tallow was more a cream colour perhaps with a hint of yellow.

Sounds right.  The below is pretty much what I am aiming for (although maybe a little less yellow) when I get to that point and mix a batch.  The trick will be to know what colors to add to a titanium white base.  Yellow is obvious but maybe a little something else will be needed.  

Allan

3 hours ago, BrochBoating said:

B is looking down on the part,

This is partially correct.  "B"  is the cross section (looking down) at the point where the arrow indicates, it is not from the top of the mast which would have included the cap.   Another common convention would be as below 

Allan

Welcome to MSW.  Had to look up fourteeners, and see that they are mountains over 14,000 feet.  Gotta be gorgeous.

French horn and bass guitar.......  ahhh a man of many talents. 

 IF you get frustrated with your first choice, do look at the three model series designed by David Antscherl from Model Shipways.  They will help you develop good habits and explain how planking and other construction details are supposed to be done rather than following make believe practices.

Allan

The below is a plan of a 35 foot shallop from RMG.  I have never seen the items in question and wonder if these are nothing more than foot rests on which the rowers can plant their feet for more support when rowing.

Allan

I reached out to Chris Cerino of the Sultana Education Foundation and he concurs that the John Smith shallop would most likely have been carvel built.  To that end when they built the replica (below photo) it was carvel built.  How the kit came to be lapstrake is a mystery and based on what has come up so far, may not be right.   

Further, some interesting things from the Sultana group, 

1. the shape of the vessel was inferred largely from the small shallop shown on John Smith's 1612 map of Virginia, which shows an open, double-ended vessel with one mast, one spar, and some simple shrouds (two on each side)

2 it is a two-pieced design based on an account from Captain Bartholomw Gosnold, who led an expedition to Cape Cod in 1602 where he mentions that, upon sighting land and setting anchor, the crew "launched the one half of our shallop."  After rowing this "half shallop" to shore and exploring for the day, he notes that "the other part was rowed to shore and set together"

Lots of guess work but interesting none-the-less

Allan

3 hours ago, Pitan said:

there is a drawing on some educational material (link: https://silo.tips/download/captain-john-smith-s-shallop) that appears to show overlapping planks on the hull.

I do agree with you that she was likely carvel built.  This sketch is of a boat built in recent years by the Sultana group but I cannot find anything in their writings that indicate this design is anything more than their best guess.   Perhaps they have contemporary evidence of such and that would really be worthwhile to see such information.  

Allan

I have always done the rails, then the head timbers and it is a royal pain in the neck.  I will have to give your route a try on the next one.😀

Allan

On 12/1/2023 at 8:11 PM, cougar said:

so is there a chance I could get a hold of your files?

Welcome to MSW Mr. Cougar

It would be polite if you posted a little intro about yourself  in the new members forum.   

If you are not committed strictly to the Bluenose there are plans of other Grand Banks schooners such as the Ernestina (ex Effie M. Morrisey) available from the US National Archives, including photos.  As she was recently rebuilt at Bristol Marine, they might share even more details with you.

Allan

Great joinery, neatly done overall, a joy to follow your build.   Hope a lot of others take a look.   

Allan

3 hours ago, druxey said:

Also, there was 'black stuff'...

Oh my.  So what is the story on the black stuff regarding where it goes?  I am familiar with the black wales and black strake above the main wale, but was there also black stuff below the wales in addition to or instead of the white stuff?

Thanks!!

Allan

40 minutes ago, Brian Glendenning said:

Is it practical for two people to work together on one model (maybe concentrating on different aspects in different sessions), or in reality is it a solitary activity?

Not in my house. 

Regardless of the project being a kit or scratch, research is extremely beneficial and that might to something to share.  Otherwise, unless your interests in ship, nation, era, priorities such as accuracy, et al, are identical it may be better for each to have their own project, even if it is the same vessel.   You may have something special though and can work together, but someone is going to have to make decisions when the inevitable stumbling block appears.

Welcome aboard😀

Allan

Thanks David

Again I see both, especially the last one, object-12551 appearing to follow the sheer of the wales.  The first is harder to see but object-12537 and object-15235  are very clear that they parallel the water line.   

Another quandry😕

Thanks again

Allan

Some models from RMG as well.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66327

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66374

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66407

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66403

1 hour ago, modeller_masa said:

These are examples by Amati.

I would find a more reliable source which is based on actual practice such as Chapelle et al to confirm or correct their interpretations.  For example the line runs under the horse,  which would never work, rather than to the block.   

Allan

This is not the most interesting or earth shattering topic, but curiosity and the cat and all that.

Prior to the introduction of coppered bottoms circa 1782 the bottoms were coated with white stuff.   Ships' boats aside, were some RN ships still built without the copper sheathing in favor of the white stuff once the copper sheathing practice became the norm in the 1780s?

I spent some time looking at how the white protective coatings on contemporary models was done and noticed that the majority of these contemporary models had the white stuff follow the sheer of the bottom of the main wale, not the water line.   It would be easier to paint the bottom of a model like this rather than a perfectly horizontal water line but what was done on the actual ships?  To me both styles look good.

I have seen the white bottoms planked with holly rather than using paint and it is a truly beautiful thing but invariably seems to follow the sheer of the wales, not the waterline.  

TIA

Allan

Hi Tony

What vessel is this?  Depending on the vessel you are building things could vary but I don't think any blocks were ever externally stropped with a metal rod.  The pics look like this might be a schooner versus an 18th century ship or similar.  If that is the case and it is before the time of internally stropped blocks I believe they would be stropped with rope but if internally stropped as I believe was started in the second half of the 19th century  they would probably have a metal strap inside the shell, not outside.  There would likely be a traveler or ring attached to the strop so the ring or the traveler would ride the horse.  Examples follow from Chapelle's  American Fishing Schooners, pages 463 and 464 which also show the requisite fairleads.

Do your blocks  actually only have one hole in them like the sketch you posted?   😗

Allan

Looks like a really nice kit.   I noticed belaying pins in the box and wonder why as they were not used by most European navies until mid to late 18th century.  Were the Germans ahead of the British, Spanish, and French I wonder?   

Regarding the frames, they actually look pretty good to me as the heads of the top timbers were likely about 5 inches in and out, maybe less,  so about 2.5 mm (0.10").  For a little protection I would add a temporary harpin or two with PVA  so it is easy to remove them later with a little water of IPA.   Maybe also some temporary beams on each bulkhead, up high, which will also maintain the breadth when adding the planking which might squeeze these members inboard a bit.

Allan

Having spiled planks is fantastic.    

Based on the frames it looks like the hull is planked lapstrake but there does not appear to be any gain at the bow which is unusual. The only contemporary models of English shallops I could find are carvel built, not lapstrake.  Was this one of those things that depending on where they were built the style could vary?   There were contracts for boat yards and after studying a couple from the 17th century there is no mention of the style of planking in any of them and W.E. May does not mention anything in his description of shallops so who knows for sure?  Interesting, one way or the other, and looks to be a nice kit overall.   

Allan

 Tiziano,

Your metal work is as precise as your wood work!  Bello!

Allan

On 12/1/2023 at 10:20 AM, Glenn-UK said:

With many thanks to @allanyed who confirmed that the stunsail boom should be rotated forward by approx 45 degrees for ships built after 1773. I used Allan's information to set the position of the yard irons, as can be seen below.

Thanks for the credit Glenn, but the information was gleaned mainly from James Lees  book The Masting and Rigging English of Ships of War.  This angle did vary over time so for anyone building an earlier British RN ship, the angle is not the same nor is the hardware that holds the booms or rigging of the stunsails, again, according to Lees.

Allan

Just one more opinion, hope you don't mind, but the decks were holy stoned and very light rather than dark.  The caulking on the edges was barely visible so you may be better off using the wood supplied as is and forget the blackened edges as they look extremely heavy just as treenailing and bolting (which is barely visible at full scale) would look totally out of place at 1:90 scale.  Photos of decks of contemporary models from Preble Hall are below.  These are 1:48 scale and even they do not blacken the edges.  If you really want the edges blackened at your scale maybe try a pencil or black tissue paper which will give a very clean edge.

Allan

A very warm welcome to you!  Looking at your temperatures and winter not being officially here yet, I thought any offered warmth would be welcome.😀

Allan

16 hours ago, Thukydides said:

Yes you have it. By keel I am referring to just the straight bit along the bottom. So if you took the ship of the cradle and laid it flat on the desk the angle for the butts should be square with your desk.

I agree for most ships, but the keels of the the Alert and Flirt are not flat.  It rises both fore and aft.  Not noticeable by most so not a big deal, just something a bit different.  ZAZ4631 at RMG Collections   https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-84422       PDF below

Allan

Flirt keel line.PDF

2 hours ago, OllieS said:

Poundland

That one threw me so I looked it up and it is what we in the US call dollar stores.  NOT a place to find ship models or ship model kits. Their ads show finished models for the same price as kits, what's up with that?

Allan

1 hour ago, newbee said:

even the anatomy of the ship book seems to contain anomalies compared to the maritime museum model and especially the plans for this kit.

It is a good idea to check any modern sources to see the contemporary sources on which their information is based, be it plans, contracts, or models.  In the case of questions regarding kit instructions it is not difficult to do a bit of your own research of contemporary plans, models, and in some cases for ships built in private yards, original contracts.  There are a number of high res plans of the Artois class, which includes Diana, available on Wikicommons site and some additional low res plans on the RMG Collections site that should give you the designed gun port positions.

Regarding cutting the bulkheads,  nothing wrong with installing the gun port lids in a closed location as appropriate. 😀   

Allan

Another anomaly that Scrubby and I have come across when comparing the Bristol and Portland plans is regarding the orlop deck beams.  The Portland plans show scarphed deck beams which was not so common on the orlop, and the Bristol shows 16.5" broad single piece beams.  I checked Steel and he shows 50 gun ships had orlop beams that varied in siding from 11" to 13" depending on where in the hold they were located.  The Shipbuilder's Repository 1788 does not give any widths for the orlop beams.  The 1719, 1745, and 1750 Establishments show 13" siding.  In the end, barring seeing a contract I would follow the drawing, but that is a significant difference.  As both were built at the RN yard in Sheerness, there would not be a contract, but perhaps others of this class were built in private yards so contracts would have been written and could shed some light.   

Allan