allanyed

9 hours ago, Siggi52 said:

A last picture this year

Great photo and thank you for your sentiment for the holidays.  A Merry Christmas to you and a great 2024.  

Allan

WELCOME TO MSW!!!

What size are the cases?  Sounds like a good quality regular saw from a hardware would suit, but how are you going to move it around when you change ships?  Maybe better off with a mini.  Byrnes is considered by all that have used one as being the best but I am not sure on delivery since Jim passed away a few weeks ago.  The business is still going, but you might want to give them a call to see what the status is on getting one if that turns out to be your choice.  Remember that the blades are small compared to a full size table saw so you are somewhat limited on the lumber size it can handle.

Allan

Thanks for sharing your build!

Just a thought................. there is a build of the Portland 1770 that shows something I had not seen before and might serve well for all builds, kit or scratch.  The location/breadth of the planks are laser marked on every bulkhead.  It would probably be easier for kits as most are now laser cut whereas scratch is still more the old fashioned way.  This should make it much easier for the builder to shape the breadth of the planks at each bulkhead so they are consistent from keel to top timber rather than having some planks very narrow and some very broad at any given bulkhead.   https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34684-hms-portland-1770-by-scrubbyj427-148-4th-rate-50-gun-ship/   

Allan

3 hours ago, HardeeHarHar said:

plum bob to step their masts

I too like that idea as long as the waterline of the model is sitting perfectly horizontal.

Allan

On 12/14/2023 at 8:02 AM, Gregory said:

Allan seems to have some historical info regarding gun tackle that none of the kit makers have

Hi Gregory, 

I am taking your comment in good spirit.😀   I merely passed on what I found in historian Adrian Caruana's book on English Sea Ordnance volume II, page 386.  His CV is most impressive and he was considered the leading authority in the world on English ordnance.  It might just be that some others did not do the research.  While Caruana states guns less than 32 pounders used pairs of single sheave blocks, I am sure there were exceptions for other large guns such as the 24's on any given ship.  In the end nothing is gospel in this hobby of ours but I would rely on the likes of Caruana before the majority of kit makers or others that perhaps have less expertise in this area. 

Allan

2 hours ago, usedtosail said:

that's where the idea of the raised "bumps" came from.

I totally understand your dilemma but the pic below is a copper plate from the Constitution with nail dents versus rivet bumps.   I think the reason Vanguard went with the laser cut circles is that they are much closer to scale (1/4" nail with half inch dents full size) and the larger number of them as on the actual ships.   Goodwin has drawings and dimensions of the plates and such in his Construction and Fitting book.  

Allan

Welcome back Kenny.  Your planking is spot on, kudos!!!   

The trouble with the frames is that, based on contemporary scantlings for a 30/32 foot long boat, they were moulded only about 2.5 inches at the head and sided about 2.75" (0.05" X 0.057") so difficult to work them to the proper size once the planking is done.  With the frames too thick the gunwale that sits on top of the frames will be too large.  It was likely about 3.5 broad by 3.75 deep so just covered the head of the frames and upper most strake of planking.

Allan

11 hours ago, DNSJames said:

My lawyer is asking what everyone thinks the "general cost range" would be to fix such the ship. 

I am really curious to see what others think this work is valued at. 

I think 150-200 hours is a good guess.  As to what that costs, figure out your hourly rate at work and then you have the cost of labor.  If for example you are making $35 per hour the value is upwards of $7,000.  Add cost of materials ($100-$150?) she owes you $7,150.  Probably won't fly, but I'm not a lawyer.

Allan

4 hours ago, Tony28 said:

I’ve got in a nasty habit of photographing, zooming in and despairing at the results.  

This is a great habit!!   When you think you have things looking really good take some closeups and look again.   Invariably I wind up doing a bit more finishing or sometimes replacements which is for the better. 

For a first model and such a small scale your work is wonderful.

Allan

6 hours ago, Gregory said:

The high resolution admiralty droughts are available at Wiki.

I Googled Wiki Commons Bounty and three plans popped up so can be saved in low, medium and high res.  Thanks for the lead Gregory!

 Allan

Love the sails Tom!!!  They look really good overall and far nicer than the out-of-scale sewn cloth sails we see too often.  

The use of the copper foil is also very nice, but I am curious as to why you chose to have what appears to be big bumps in the photos rather than the  indentations they would have had in real life from the small nails used to attach them to the hull.  

Allan

Lovely model Maciek!

I realize it is probably a kit mistake, not yours, but for the future, small cannon (below 32 pounders) used only single blocks, not doubles on both the running out tackle and train tackle.  This is a common error with several kit manufacturers so you are not alone.    

On 12/12/2023 at 4:17 PM, Maciek said:

I don't have access to sewing machine so my sails are glued.

Nothing wrong with using glue on your sails, it actually might be a better way to go.  Sewing will never be to scale at our most common scales just as cloth is usually far out of scale.  Just as an FYI, many builders have switched silk span as it is much more realistic looking and no sewing is involved.   

Again, very nice work.

Allan

Prior to the  17th century the largest boats were nearly always towed, at least on English boats, using two ropes, the boat rope and gust rope. This started to change during the 17th century for the English ships.  Smaller boats were carried on the ship midships.  Later, even larger boats could be carried on board.

Before davits were introduced about 1790 the boats were raised and lowered from the ship by tackle suspended from the main and fore yardarms.   They were stowed midships, on deck, or in larger ships on beams over the waist area.  Brian Lavery goes into some good detail on how this was done on page 233 of The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War.  The following is his description of hoisting boats.

Because the largest boats were stowed between the mainmast and foremast, in the longest open space on the ship, a complicated tackle was needed for hoisting them in and out.  Draughts of boats often show ringbolts fitted inside the hull, which were used to attach the ropes used in hoisting.  The first stage was to raise the boat from its position amidships.  Two pendants hung from the masts, one from under the the top of the mainmast, the other from under the top of foremast.  When in use these were joined together by another rope known as the triatic stay, which was the same length as the boat.  A tackle was hung from the lower end of the pendants, one to lift each end of the boats.  Once the boat had been lifted, it had to be swung outboard.  The mainyard and foreyard were angled inward towards one another, and a tackle was extended from each yardarm to one end of the boat.  If the boat was heavy, the yards had to be supported with extra ropes in addition to the normal lifts.

There is more, but this is the gist of it.

Pics below may help.

Allan

If you have not already done so, you might benefit from watching the You Tube video (4 part series) on proper planking techniques by Chuck Passaro.  It will help you immensely.

Part 1 --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWooJ1o3cM 

Allan

4 hours ago, Tyguy35 said:

The only thing I think I would struggle on with any of them is just the planking of the hull. I’m just not sure which technique is best to go with a a learner. 

There are really two choices, the way some kits suggest where many of planks do not end at the rabbet near the bow which, generally speaking, is not correct, or the way it was actually done.  I don't think one is easier than the other, so your choice.   If you decide to go with actual practice there are tutorials here at MSW in the Articles Database https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf and the four part You Tube video by Chuck Passaro.  I think that as you will have straight planks you will not be able to spile the planks as in the tutorial so the method used in the videos might be better.  Part 1 is 

Other than the Vanguard kits I would avoid the others mentioned for various reasons unless you are not concerned with accuracy or are ready to do a lot of research and are OK with kit bashing.    Also consider the following high quality project.   https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/hms-winchelsea-1764.php   

Allan

There was both stone work and brick work in the cooking area.  The below is limited to the 1780 era but these are color drawings of the stone work, flue, copper, stove and hearth brickwork (shown in red) for a 36 and a 64 at RMG Collections.  The legend describes the various parts.

Allan

5 hours ago, Lieste said:

There were slings on C16th ships, making up a significant portion of the headline gun numbers - fitted to the gun wale.

Thanks Lieste, I was giving the information from Andriana Caruana's second volume ( 1715-1815) regarding English ships and I misremembered the word highlighted below.  I just rechecked and confirmed my memory did not serve me well, my apologies.

During the War of the Spanish Succession which lasted from 1702 to 171, there were some spectacular English successes such as the capture of Gibraltar.  The Spanish had known liking for swivel guns, and the capture of a place of such importance as Gibraltar would have included the capture of an arsenal; it is suggested that this is how the swivel gun RE-appeared  <not appeared> in the Royal Navy. 

I do not have Volume I of the Caruana set so hopefully some member that has it can lend more to this discussion.

Thanks for the correction, very much appreciated.

Allan

21 minutes ago, Lieste said:

7.5ft and 9ft (breech ring to muzzle face) 12pdrs and a 9.5ft 24pdr (overall length is roughly 2 calibres longer with the cascable and button).

Exactly.  I just learned this in the past couple years and have now found that most aftermarket and kit guns are not only often the wrong pattern for a given era and nation but also the incorrect length.  This project from Ron will alleviate this situation for those that go with printed guns with the added advantage that printed guns are more detailed and can be purchased for MUCH lower prices.  I paid less than $1 each, including freight that last time I ordered 20 Commonwealth pattern barrels at 1:64 scale.  

Allan

15 hours ago, cbill said:

I have noticed that small ships like sloops and frigates are often armed with swivel guns and I have rarely seen this type of armament on larger ships like first classes.

Hi Bill

What year and nation are the first rate ships you are referencing?  This is important as, for example, the Spanish were using swivel guns in the 17th century but the RN did not begin production until about 1721 with 1/2 pounders so early British first rates would have none.  Caruana in The History of English Sea Ordnance, Volume II goes into some detail on swivel guns but does not specify the number of them on any given rating. 

This is just nomenclature, but just as an FYI, there were classes and groups of ships but this generally referred to a specific or general design such as the Artois (38) class.  Rates referred to the number of guns and this varied a little over the years as well as from country to country.  

Allan

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich takes you directly to the list of plans they have.  About 2200 are low res but over 800 are high res.  The drawing size is shown under each plan so you can see quickly which are high resolution and those that are low resolution.  The plans are listed alphabetically but is split for some reason.  Goes from A to Z for several pages then starts over for many pages.  Those in the first group are not repeated in the second group.  I downloaded all the high res plans and put them into a file (44gb) by category (100 gun, 90 gun, and so on and so on, plus separate folders for boats, masts etc. )  I added contracts where I could find them and a few low res plans if a particular plan was missing in a set of high res for a given vessel. I would send them to you or post them but at 44gb there is no way to do it unless the mods have some idea.  

All of this, plus scantlings from the Establishments, The Shipbuilder's Repository, and Steel's Elements and Practices of Naval Architecture will provide you with a wealth of contemporary information.  For boats in particular there are sets of scantlings in W.E. May's book The Boats of Men-of-War that are quite useful.  All of these scantlings are available in one book from SeaWatch Books for $45. 

Hope this helps for now and especially for future builds, be they kit or scratch.

Allan

Most, if not all of us, feel your pain Hamilton, I know I sure do.   

Allan

If you study the high res drawings of Bellona 1760 and Dragon 1760 on the Wiki Commons site  you can see the wing, deck, and filler transoms so it MIGHT help you decide.   It looks like you would have to sand away a lot of material that is already installed but it will be covered in the end.  Maybe not worth the effort, but something to consider.

Allan

1 hour ago, SighingDutchman said:

I’m afraid Artesania Latina is still claiming this to be ‘the boat’.

Building kits requires the same thing as scratch building IF accuracy is of any interest, that being, research.  There are books based on contemporary data and thousands of contemporary plans, contracts, paintings, and models that can be found on various websites including over 800 high resolution plans at no cost on the Wiki Commons site.  Plus, there are a LOT of members here that love the research as much as the build and are a wealth of information if research on your own comes up short.   Everyday is a chance to learn something new no matter how much experience we have.

Allan

Nice start to your build.

You may benefit from looking at the models and plans of launches (the Bounty's jolly boat was rotted through) at RMG that replicate the boat used by Bligh.  For example it had two masts that were lug rigged thus there would not be a bow sprit.  

Allan